Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: The Apothecary Diaries Season 2
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yeehaw
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That's interesting. I've always thought of lolicon as a less sexual term. Like someone who likes loli characters but not actual children, or a fictional character who likes little girls because they're cute but not because they want to have sex with them. It feels a bit too comical or cute a term for actual pedophiles |
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yeehaw
Posts: 662 |
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I know people in-universe think it's weird, but it doesn't seem like they find it worse than weird. The very young girls he laid hands on were still "up for grabs" so to say. It seems like men would offer their daughters up to the emperor and he would pick the youngest when a normal guy would have picked one of her older sisters, but she was still offered to him so it wasn't out of the question. That being said I have changed my mind about the word use after reading the comments. There's nothing wrong with using pedophile, even if I personally would have liked it to stay closer to the real script. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18675 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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"Lolicon" has always had a sexual component to it when used in anime and related media, and that's been pretty consistent for at least 20 years now. As for how people in-universe view it, any era has its enablers when the goal is to gain power and influence. (And unfortunately, that's still as true today as it ever has been.) That doesn't at all mean that what the enabler is doing is morally or culturally acceptable to the general populace of that era. There's plenty of indication that the Emperor is/was regarded negatively for his predilection. |
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Thesarum
 SubscriberPosts: 639 |
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This is such a difficult and heavy area, peppered with landmines all too easily stepped on. I think the anime does a remarkable job of handling it with seriousness and nuance. Something anime in general has all too often proven itself ill equipped to do. I'm not at all confident I can do the same, but here's a couple of thoughts.
I'm not clear where the idea the Emperor was abused as a child comes from. I don't recall that coming up at all. It's explicitly said that the jotei (I'll adopt Shay Guy's shorthand here for clarity) drew power to herself because she knew him to be unsuited to ruling in an effort to protect him. It seems more likely he was spoiled rather than abused. So perhaps he was a puppet, but she exercised her borrowed power almost exclusively for his benefit. Anishi says she walked into it with her eyes open, but honestly what 10 year old could possibly do that? She was groomed by her family for that role, and their expectations made very clear. She thought she knew what she was doing perhaps. She didn't.
I'd agree on this (and your many other great points and insights on these episodes). There's more to Anshi than her trauma, even though she does carry a big heap of that around. Regardless of whether Jinshi is her birth son or just effectively adopted, she's motherly with him here. Many little indicidental details and comments from other occupants of the palace lead us to believe she is well respected and well liked in a way that isn't simple deference to power.
On a lighter topic, I think it's interesting how much softer Suiren is towards Maomao here compared to before. Not that Maomao notices. She's in full granny mode really.
One of the the great ways Maomao is written is that she's terribly unreliable at describing to us things like this. She doesn't relate to us that her stance towards Jinshi is softening. She's doesn't say to us "I'm always watching him" or "I just can't help thinking about him". Just every so often something gets through and she gives away that yes, she is paying a lot of attention. That understanding the emotions behind his "Jinshi" mask is important enough to her that it breaks through her obsessions and self-preservation instincts. She doesn't recognise it in herself yet of course, so how could she narrate it to us?
That young girls were trafficked to the rear palace and essentially sacrificed at the altar of power does not in any way make them "up for grabs". The lesson we are supposed to draw here is that people will compromise much for a sniff of that sort of power, and women were frequently not considered to have value beyond who they can be married to. Not that it was basically fine if a bit odd in the way him liking to paint was thought a bit odd. |
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Shay Guy
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…All this is making me wonder about a really morbid topic: what it must’ve been like for the first few people to figure out that the emperor was a pedophile.
A lot of people would’ve wanted to know his type, I’m sure — if you want to secure the political connections an imperial marriage would bring, you have a vested interest in that question. He doesn’t say anything about it, so people watch him at court. It’s frustrating for a while — whenever a lady approaches him, he seems like he’d rather be anywhere else. Does he prefer men? Hopefully not; the heir problem is still solvable even then, but you’re playing on Hard Mode. But there’s gradations in his behavior, if you know what to look for. He was a little less tense with that 14-year-old from the south. And that one time Minister Zhang’s youngest daughter was at court, he actually went out of his way to speak to her. Got kinda touchy-feely, even. And during that one event, his head seemed to be turned by… one of the servant girls? Surely not, though, she was just a ki— Wait. Is he into…? Okay. Deep breath. We can work with this. (I do not have the stomach to post “How did you realize someone you knew was a pedophile?” on /r/AskReddit to inform my speculation. I’d get answers.) By the time there was a baby crown prince whose mother was only 10 years older than him, of course, it would’ve been common knowledge, and Anshi does say quite a few young girls were sent to follow in her footsteps. But Anshi’s sister genuinely thought she had a chance, so while there were people like their father who had caught on, it must still not have been widely known then. And that whole family dynamic is another can of worms. It seems clear Anshi and her mother were less favored; she describes her half-sister as having been “raised like a princess”. It’s not too far a reach to speculate on what was really driving what she calls the “ambition” in her eyes. A girl like that is summoned by her father, and he tells her he has a very special job for her, because she’s a very special girl, and remarkably mature in some very important ways — it’s extra secret, though, just between the two of them, so she can’t even tell Onee-sama. (She wouldn’t understand anyway, not like you…) But if she can pull this off, it’ll be the best thing that’s ever happened to their family, and she loves this family as much as he does, right? Good girl… I don’t think she wanted status or luxury or whatever she told herself. I think she wanted her father to love her. And did he? Well, he sent her into a situation he must’ve known would be horribly painful and potentially deadly, and if she’d died in childbirth, I think he would’ve counted it as a win as long as he became grandfather to the heir apparent. So I’m leaning just a hair toward “no”.
Nothing explicitly voiced — like I said earlier, it’s his reaction to being touched. That’s a textbook trauma response. Something that visceral doesn’t come out of nowhere.
Well… she didn't always have that power. Remember, she was originally pretty low-ranked. Her position was obtained through the same roll of the plague dice as her son's.
Oh hey, neat thing I saw when I looked at the Encyclopedia page -- Yuko Kaida is credited in this episode as young Suiren! Which is a very interesting choice, because she's also the voice of Ah-Duo. And suddenly, a few different pieces of backstory start to click together.
Ooh, good observation! 
There’s other ways she’s unreliable, of course — in this episode, she was the first to assume the woman in the painting was the jotei. But her façade of not being affected, and especially not caring about the people around her, is probably the most fun to see the holes in. “I’m not snuggling up to my dad because I love him or because I’m leaving soon. It’s just a cold night.” “I’m not worried about him. I just want to make sure he teaches me everything he knows before he bites it.” “So the weirdo picked that woman who’s got no nose and smells terrible, huh. Chose her over Meimei, even. Worst taste ever. Well, whatever, not like either of them mean anything to me. I’ll just put on this nice dress with the most beautiful makeup job I can do, climb all the way up to Fuyou’s old spot on the wall, and dance a while for no reason at all…” “Did I show any emotion when I was telling Jinshi how to devalue a courtesan? …No, definitely not. Perfect poker face as always. Phew.” “I’m just thinking about my own inevitable death someday because that’s where my thoughts drifted. I’m not brooding at all about that girl who drowned last night, desperately clawing at the wall… or all the other people I’ve seen come close to death… or that slowly dying woman in the annex who means nothing to me…” |
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Bluuumeee
Posts: 46 |
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For those asking about Natsu Hyuga's tweet alluding to the previous emperor possibly having been abused, here's the link:
https://x.com/NaMelanza/status/1898030141965844767 [img]https://imgur.com/a/PgyJyFk[/img] Someone on reddit translated it as such: https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/1j5q8sl/comment/mgnzlmu/?share_id=u6ZUm7RFvxgepr3J-RSwz&utm_content=2&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1 Make your own judgements.[/ |
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Thesarum
Subscriber Posts: 639 |
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This has long been a pet theory of mine. Remember when she lent a dress to Maomao that had belonged to her daughter? I'm not sure what about that interaction gave me this impression, but it's basically been in my head ever since. She's Anshi's lady in waiting, and Ah-Duo was, I think, mentioned as being the Emperor's milk sibling, the daughter of an attendant, at one point. It's all circumstantial, but I'm pretty convinced. Which also brings up an interesting point about the imperial bloodline. The Jotei was of "low" birth, Anshi was of middling status at best, and Ah-Duo may also be the daughter of someone of limited status. Maomao might consider herself "just" be the daughter of a red light district apothecary (who, it doesn't need to be said, is isn't just that at all)... But even if that were true, she'd just be the latest in a long line. |
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Shay Guy
Posts: 2520 |
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S1E10, yeah. Thinking about it more, they are similar in some ways — a warm, occasionally motherly demeanor coupled with a very strong will. Funny thing is, the dress itself was one of the things that made me doubt the idea at first. There’s a big height difference between Ah-Duo and Maomao… but on the other hand, nobody’s born tall, and the intermediate value theorem is a thing. And it’s hard to imagine Ah-Duo in white and pink… but we’ve only seen her in the colors of the Pure Consort, a title she didn’t hold until she was 30. (Looking up those colors and considering the scheme the high consorts follow, Anshi’s association with yellow is quite fitting.)
Which puts this bit from S1E18 in a new light: “But remember, just because a person is of noble birth doesn’t make them inherently different from the start. Nobody knows how a person‘s life can twist and turn. Separating everything based only on status can lead to missed opportunities.” She would know, wouldn’t she? |
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KarlFranz
Posts: 190 |
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The reason why the many concubines of the old emperor couldn't leave is because no one want to take them back.Ancient China put great emphasis in purity and chasity. One a woman is married to someone, they basically belong to that household. It doesn't matter whether the concubines have consummate the marriage with the old emperor or not, they are the emperor's women the moment they enter the palace. Only the emperor can set them free. Some are lucky to come from powerful family who can pull some favor to get them back but most don't and they are stuck there.
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MFrontier
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In a season that's had a surprising amount of focus on identical twins or people who resemble each other so much, nothing brings that home more than nearly identical triplets joining the Jade Pavilion.
The real punishment for Maomao wasn't getting put in the storage shed, it was taking her away from the storage shed. Luckily she's got it good with Gyokuyou anyways. The haunting hour with Aya Hisakawa! Who better to lead a round of ghost stories? I love how Maomao suddenly noticing a resemblance with someone she's getting acquainted with to someone she might've met before keeps foreshadowing reveals. Admittedly that close-up of Shisui's face with her eye colors makes it more clear if you've been paying close attention to another character. And also the fact that she can drop being bubbly and sweet on a dime when she needs to. Maomao isn't interested in ghost stories, she only knows real stories, like other people being able to rob graves when she's forbidden from doing so! Was it the haunting ghost of one of the former Emperor's former victims, trapped in the Rear Palace with nothing but her ghost stories that became how she ensnares her victims after her death? Or possibly of some relation to that concubine we heard about who had a baby with a doctor? Or part of the conspiracy against the Imperial Family (not really sure how poisoning a bunch of girls with carbon monoxide poisoning accomplishes that)? Honestly, a part of me wants them to leave it deliberately ambiguous. Aw, look how cute Maomao and Yinghua look in bed together! Maomao became her emotional support gremlin! But Jinshi better move fast before this becomes a yuri anime.
In a show where very little is a coincidence, this does stand out. Blue Exorcist did something similar where spoiler[Shiemi's mom was voiced by Kana Hanazawa, who voices Shiemi, in a brief cameo in the flashback arc.] |
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Thesarum
Subscriber Posts: 639 |
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At first glance, this is a bit of a stand alone episode. A self contained plot point about telling ghost stories in the summertime, and the attempted murder of Maomao and some other ladies by a vengeful maybe-ghost.
But that's not really how Apothecary does things. It's quite efficient with it's storytelling, and almost everything that happens comes back eventually and links through to larger themes. Even little throw away moments are often clues or hints to earlier or later mysteries. Shisui's story is about a praying mantis isn't it? She's a bug nut after all, and the "wife" eating its mate is famously their thing (though, I think not 100% unique in the insect world). The main thing going on here though, is we're getting a glimpse into a side of the rear palace we've not seen a whole lot of. Mostly, the women we meet here seem pretty content with their lot in life as political tools. Even Fuyou the wall-dancer in S1 was depressed rather than angry. There are rivalries and disagreements between the women (such as with the mushroom poisonings, and Lihua and Shin), but all accept their role and are merely seeking to maximise their success at it. In the organiser of this event though, we have anger and hatred for the system of the palace itself. For the previous emperor, and probably the whole imperial line that maintains this system. (We also get confirmation that the Jotei was a key enabler of the previous emperors behaviour, explicitly seeing out minors that would meet his "needs"). And many of the women here have every right to be angry really. The consorts might not have been kidnapped like Maomao was, but most won't have had a whole lot more say in the matter. Sent by their families, essentially held captive. Power and status comes to the lucky few, but most just sit in their gilded cages until the emperor (or death) releases them. What would killing 11 random girls achieve here? Well this isn't a political act, it's just simple retribution. But also, perhaps it's not entirely random. That Maomao is a favourite of Jinshi the "manager" of the hated rear palace is probably a more poorly kept secret than she'd like. Yinghua is one of the few close attendants of Gyokuyou, the mother of the only known imperial child and pregnant with another. Shisui's clearly has things going on too.. We don't know who the other attendees were, maybe they were just unlucky. The truly important people at too well protected to be attacked directly (though Suirei had a damn good go), but that doesn't mean you can't ruin their day. The previous court was deeply corrupted by a broken man and his mother, and the actions of that time continue to echo in the present. |
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TJ_Kat
Posts: 488 Location: Saskatoon, Canada |
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I don't think the women we meet here - for the most part - are political tools. I would imagine the vast majority of the non-concubine/non-directly serving a concubine women in the rear palace were sent there by their probably poor families to serve out a term earning money for their families. It's a job. And probably a pretty good one. And one they will get to leave once their terms are up. Take Xiaolan. Assuming she's from a poor family, if she weren't working in the rear palace, she's probably still be doing laundry for her family at home, but in a significantly poorer setting. And while working at the rear palace may put restrictions on her freedom, she's probably eating better than she would at home, wears better clothes, and has a nicer bed to sleep in. Plus she is helping support her family which plays into a cultural sense of familial duty. In short, they are servants, not slaves, so it stands to reason that they would be welcome - even encouraged - to find some means of entertainment and recreation. Which is pretty much exactly how this event was presented. Also, I accidentally found out what Shisui's deal is and... I'm going to have to go back and immediately re-watch the whole season once it's done. It gives such a twist in perspective EVERY time she appears. |
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Thesarum
Subscriber Posts: 639 |
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Fair - I should probably have clarified that I meant the concubines. The serving women aren't actually captive (though they need permission slips to leave). The concubines are. |
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Shay Guy
Posts: 2520 |
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As I recall, there’s some basis in real-world rules for concubines — if they’re still virgins when the emperor dies, like with Lishu, they’re sent off to live in a temple. Honestly, I prefer the reading that it was genuinely some other woman, maybe a friend of the original organizer, rather than an actual-factual ghost. The latter just seems too out-of-character for a series that started off with a “curse” proving to have a non-supernatural explanation, and has stuck with that ever since, right up to last week’s reveal of mummification by orpiment.
Though Maomao was a last-minute addition, and we don’t know if there was any sort of selection process, or if it’s just an event open for everyone to attend. |
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KarlFranz
Posts: 190 |
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Actually back then all of the concubines that failed to sire children were send to temple regardless of them being virgin or not. Of course like every rules, there are exception and loopholes for people with power. Famously, Wu Zetian was one such concubine who manage to seduce the crowd prince (her stepson) and was took back to be the concubine for the crowd prince where she rose to become the only female emperor in China history. |
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