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Poll: What do you think of Moe?


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Iritscen



Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 793
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:03 am Reply with quote
Not into Moe so much. Prefer Curly.
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rhodesama



Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 6
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:20 am Reply with quote
I've sort of had an on again off again thing with moe myself. The topic does tend to spark some lively debate.

I do wonder why people tend to not get as up in arms over women who like shota as compared to males who like loli - couldn't it be perceived as the same 'perversion' ? Maybe it's the idea of women not being viewed as perpetrators in society at large. Meh. Who knows?

[If you guys think that moe is bad... I wonder what people here would say about those into guro...]
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pat_payne



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 179
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:13 pm Reply with quote
rhodesama wrote:
I've sort of had an on again off again thing with moe myself. The topic does tend to spark some lively debate.

I do wonder why people tend to not get as up in arms over women who like shota as compared to males who like loli - couldn't it be perceived as the same 'perversion' ? Maybe it's the idea of women not being viewed as perpetrators in society at large. Meh. Who knows?


It's probably the same thing as the fact that male teachers who prey on their young students are looked upon as worse than a female teacher (especially if she's attractive) doing likewise with a male student. It's a common male fantasy, especially among teens, to be seduced by an older woman, and therein lies the double standard.

Quote:
[If you guys think that moe is bad... I wonder what people here would say about those into guro...]


I had the misfortune to stumble across a eroguro site while I was in college -- I literally had to throw up it was so disgusting.
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Richard J.



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
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Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:33 pm Reply with quote
rhodesama wrote:
I do wonder why people tend to not get as up in arms over women who like shota as compared to males who like loli - couldn't it be perceived as the same 'perversion' ? Maybe it's the idea of women not being viewed as perpetrators in society at large.
You hit the nail square in the head. Women are rarely viewed as being as "perverted" or dangerous as men are regardless of what they're into. There's some logic to it, given that males are typically more violent and aggresive, but some women can be equally dangerous. (There are some fascinating studies out there on this issue.)

It's a matter of sexual bias that is unlikely to ever change in a world where being anti-female is clearly preceived as bad but being anti-male is often seen as perfectly acceptable.

rhodesama wrote:
[If you guys think that moe is bad... I wonder what people here would say about those into guro...]
Love of violence and gore is, at least in the US, seen as relatively acceptable. I'm not sure exactly why love of carnage is okay but love of sexuality isn't, but it's the way American society has developed. Still, I think you'll find a fair number of people who'd say that guro is not their thing but I doubt you'd hear a lot of people saying "it's the first step to becoming a serial killer!"

I've seen some guro. That stuff is too twisted even for me and I can watch a movie like Hellraiser while eating dinner. Shocked
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Malintex Terek
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:34 pm Reply with quote
angel_lover wrote:

So is GTA the second step toward the end result of theft and murder?


More like the fifth or sixth.

angel_lover wrote:

In the wider situation, you're going to have to either ban all visual or written depictions of anything, or put everyone in prison just in case.


In the 1950's there was a little something called censorship, whereby material that could be considered "corrupting the youth" by glorifying behaviour that acted countrary to the moral status quo was not permitted to air on television. Censorship has largely given way to corporate greed, and moderate morality has deteriorated because of apathy or hyper-sensitivity.

Banning visual media isn't required, and jailing people for no crime isn't legal; all we need is a crack-down on what is acceptable material.

Problem is, it's tough to censor the internet and it's tough to get corporations to cooperate. I highly support that lady who acts as a watchdog when selecting [adult swim] properties for airing; she's strongly against fanservice even though sex would bring in better ratings, but doing so with that kind of audience would only seek to retarded equal treatment progression for women.

angel_lover wrote:

Actually, moe is a step in the opposite direction.


Yes, I'm sure proliferating the idea that women are weak, sensitive and totally dependent on men is a totally positive idea for men treating those women as independent, strong-willed and capable individuals standing on equal ground with them.

Moe tickles a primal predatory urges that stupid folk confuse as "protective instinct". Substitute an adult maid for a young child and one has a loli complex. Mask sexual gratification under the pretenses of care (id est, in a disgusting reposted anecdote I read, an Anonymous from /b/ told a tale of how he rubbed lotion on the chest of his ten year old niece and bragged about how wonderful it felt) and a weakening of moral barriers, and it's only a short walk to child rape and even assault/murder.

This kind of stuff can easily snowball since people take ideas at the very first stages to be "harmless", but from that position see the next step as "harmless" and so on, whereby someone at step six would see step seven as "harmless" but if that person was still at step one, the desparity would be easily recognized.

Our society has not degraded into a Hobbesian state of nature because religious convention struck terror in the hearts of people for a thousand years; without the fear brought by religion, and the lack of respect/incentive to cheat the law in the pursuit of pleasure, our society can easily degrade into an unholy kennel.
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Cloe
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Joined: 18 Feb 2004
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:43 pm Reply with quote
rhodesama wrote:
If you guys think that moe is bad... I wonder what people here would say about those into guro...

I actually really like it--when it's done right (considering one of my all-time favorite manga-ka is Suehiro Maruo and I'm a big fan of the Guinea Pig video series). My fascination with it isn't sexual, though. I think it comes from the same place that my love for movies like Salò come from, and Pasolini and Maruo's work are strikingly similar in terms of biting social commentary. But I can't say that all guro is bad.

Talking about this has made me come to a realization. In the end, people like what they like and it doesn't necessarily reveal any significant insight into their psyche. I personally dislike moe as a feminist but I don't care if other people are into it. I apologize for any previous uncouth remarks I may have made to moe/loli fans... although I still won't apologize for ANN-tan. Twisted Evil
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DKL



Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1933
Location: California, USA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:23 pm Reply with quote
Cloe wrote:


I apologize for any previous uncouth remarks I may have made to moe/loli fans... although I still won't apologize for ANN-tan. Twisted Evil



This needs to be my avatar.
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omar235



Joined: 02 Apr 2006
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Location: Florida, Jacksonvile
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:46 pm Reply with quote
I put "I am a fan but I don't like it when it gets taken too far". Heh people don't talk about guro or say its one step to being a serial killer, because very few want to really bring it up in the first place. Wink
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:49 pm Reply with quote
I think its less of an issue because its even more obscure and it doesn't leak into mainstream anime. Few shows get anywere close to the graphic nature of guro (shows like Elfen Lied and Berserk are tame in comparison) and they don't mix the violence with the sex.
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Mirrinus



Joined: 31 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:28 pm Reply with quote
Malintex Terek wrote:
[Yes, I'm sure proliferating the idea that women are weak, sensitive and totally dependent on men is a totally positive idea for men treating those women as independent, strong-willed and capable individuals standing on equal ground with them.


Hmm, how odd. Here we are quoting stuff like Azumanga Daioh and Lucky☆Star as pure moe shows, and I'm having a very difficult time seeing your point. What describes the cast of these shows better? "Weak, sensitive, and totally dependant on men," or "independent, strong-willed, and capable individuals"?
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Wolverine Princess



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1100
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:48 pm Reply with quote
pat_payne wrote:
I had the misfortune to stumble across a eroguro site while I was in college -- I literally had to throw up it was so disgusting.

I like some guro art, not for sexual reasons, but just because it can occasionally be really cool looking. I remember seeing a picture of a little girl with pink hair ripping into Santa Clause's belly with her bare teeth and feasting on his intestines while he was still alive around Christmas time last year, and it was seriously the most simultaneously morbidly hilarious and oddly cute picture I had ever seen. I'm mentally beating myself up right now because I didn't save it or ask who the artist was. (If this sounds familiar to anyone, I'd be eternally grateful if you could tell me who the artist could possibly be.)
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Malintex Terek
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:11 pm Reply with quote
Mirrinus wrote:

Hmm, how odd. Here we are quoting stuff like Azumanga Daioh and Lucky☆Star as pure moe shows, and I'm having a very difficult time seeing your point. What describes the cast of these shows better? "Weak, sensitive, and totally dependant on men," or "independent, strong-willed, and capable individuals"?


I can't comment since I haven't seen either nor do I have access to either, but Lucky☆Star was based on an eroge so I could probably imagine with some accuracy the kinds of "moe" it proports. Not positive at all.

Azumanga is one I really know nothing about, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that the "moe" portrayed by the characters is more positive than the misogynous drivel most weeaboo are trying to pass off as a legitimate pastime. I'd argue that to be progressive, but there is potential for abuse in the doujin world; provided that kind of "bastardization" doesn't get spread beyond the doujin world, it's relatively benign, though I'd feel uncomfortable because of the popularity of doujin in Japan and its growing presence in the ESW.

The real danger of "moe", "loli", "shota", "traps" and the whatnot is that like an annoying meme it's imitated so many times people lose sense of reality because they've been dulled by the sheer amount of caricaturizations, losing a sense of barriers between acceptable behaviour in anime or in the corpreal world.
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mistress_reebi



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 735
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:40 pm Reply with quote
If it's non-sexual then I don't see a problem because I like their big poofy Victorian dresses and it's cute. They do have some cute pictures and beautiful outfits. Sexual moe or lolihentai is very disturbing. Shocked Put the clothes on these children please.
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WrathsPuppet



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 6
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:20 pm Reply with quote
Malintex Terek wrote:

I can't comment since I haven't seen either nor do I have access to either, but Lucky☆Star was based on an eroge so I could probably imagine with some accuracy the kinds of "moe" it proports. Not positive at all.


Can you show me where it says this? From my understanding, Lucky Star is based on a series of 4komas and not an eroge.

My stance: The use of moe is perfectly fine by me. As long as the series is entertaining, I don't really think it matters.
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Furudanuki



Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1874
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:39 pm Reply with quote
Malintex Terek wrote:
Mirrinus wrote:

Hmm, how odd. Here we are quoting stuff like Azumanga Daioh and Lucky☆Star as pure moe shows, and I'm having a very difficult time seeing your point. What describes the cast of these shows better? "Weak, sensitive, and totally dependant on men," or "independent, strong-willed, and capable individuals"?


I can't comment since I haven't seen either nor do I have access to either, but Lucky☆Star was based on an eroge so I could probably imagine with some accuracy the kinds of "moe" it proports. Not positive at all.

And your imagination would be wrong. I don't know where your information about the Lucky☆Star anime came from, but you probably should start taking anything else from that source with a large grain of salt. Lucky☆Star is based on a 4-panel comic strip serialized in Kadokawa Shoten's Comptiq magazine. There is a video game called Lucky ☆ Star Moe Drill that is also based on the comic, but it runs on the Nintendo DS game system and could not be considered a "eroge" by any reasonable definition of the term. A second game (also for the Nintendo DS) is scheduled to come out later this year. Both games are rated "All ages".

Description from the wiki: "The genre of the first game is homework drills. It tests the player on various subjects and memorizations. The player's main opponent is beating other characters in quizzes. There is also a "Drama ☆ Mode" where the game plays like a mini-adventure game as you make your way to Akihabara. Math quizzes and mini games (about five in all) pop up as you play along."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_☆_Star
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