Forum - View topic
Seven Seas Entertainment Talks about Nymphet


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
otakujohn



Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 39
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 10:04 pm Reply with quote
tempest wrote:

I've read the entire first volume of Nymphet, and I can easily see how, if the title got into the wrong soccer mom's hands, it could, possibly, do a lot of damage to the mainstream perception of manga.
-t



I don't believe that at all. How this title is viewed and marketed in Japan is none of their business, and if the title is marketed as an adult title in North America there's nothing they can say about it. There isn't a thing anyone can do if the product is marketed correctly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Unholy_Nny



Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 622
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 10:12 pm Reply with quote
John, your post made no sense... It doesn't really matter what's marketed to whom, if it's offensive in any way, shape, or form, it will get persecuted to atleast a small extent.

Wouldn't be that big of a deal though, negative attention towards violent video games is getting a tad boring, I think they really do need to move onto something new.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Daemonblue



Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 701
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 10:26 pm Reply with quote
PantsGoblin wrote:

Might I also add that some of them qualify as loli. Just because they're in high school doesn't disqualify them from that. Just look at Lucky Star, most of those characters qualify as loli, but they're all in high school. I wonder if Nymphet were to say the characters were in high school, it would cause as much controversy (which they could have very well said and it wouldn't make that much difference). I wish people would look at the characters rather than their age. Because with anime age is so versatile, you can easily say characters are an age they don't look like they are (which may be a reason Negima is avoiding as much controversy as I think it should have. One of the main arguments against this is "LOOK, they are in the F-ing THIRD GRADE". Where as "LOOK, they are in the F-ing TENTH GRADE" doesn't have as much of an effect. Despite the characters looking so similar in age).


Another good thing anime that shows this point is Manabi Straight, in which all the characters are really in high school, but look like 4th graders.

Anyway, I think several people have good points, and if Tempest didn't point out the fallacy in that logic about violent people and violent games I would have. It's like saying which came first, the chicken or the egg, though the main difference with that is your beliefs (creationists would go chicken and evolutionists the egg).

I personally haven't read this manga, and I probably won't get the chance, but if I did, I would. This can't be so much worse than what's already in our culture that no one bothers to point out, such as several of the slutty dolls aimed for young children, or the clothes that no child should be wearing yet are still in stores. Also, it's not like the children these days don't already know about this kind of stuff. Of course, I don't support the sexualization of real children, but it's already too late to stop it, and just putting a pause on manga like this isn't going to make the trail fly off the tracks, it might slow it down a bit, but won't derail it.

That being said, I commend Seven Seas for their decision as well as their refusal to censor their work, and I agree that if it's good enough for the Japanese it should be good enough for us because personally, I'm tired of all these soccer moms and church groups and the like slowing down our progress as a culture, and I feel that several others would agree with me in saying that the world is changing and if we don't change with it, we'll keep falling behind, and I use the term "keep" because we're falling behind as it is...now the value of the dollar is half that of the British pound.

Also, someone had mentioned Strawberry Marshmellow didn't get into some stores cause pedophiles might use it to their ends. Is this really their defense for not putting it in some stores? If that's true, then I truly feel sorry for our future cause that takes a mind that's deeper in the gutter than I can imagine to say that.

Another thing to note, in every debate you only really see the two extremes and no one really looks at the middle, which, in this situation, should be the point of focus. That is to say, what do the majority of the American people think about this subject, not the stubborn soccer moms or the ones that will read it no matter what others think, but the ones who are on the fence, the ones with the least bias. I'm sure that if we focus on the middle and not the two extremes, we just might see more people accepting this than one might expect.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
pat_payne



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 179
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 10:26 pm Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
Quote:
Just because you CAN say or publish something does not absolutely mean you SHOULD. Because, like crying "fire" in a theater, sometimes the unfettered speech without responsibility is worse than thinking for a moment and excersizing a slight bit of self-censorship.


No one's being held responsible for the President saying Saddam had wmds, even though that led to 500,000 dead Iraqis, and 3,500 dead troops. Rolling Eyes


I'm over here, kindly direct your fire away from that straw man you set up. That gratuitous mention of the war was meant, of course, to shut me up, but you're going to have to come up with a better piece of misdirection that that. Mad Mad

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, If you had actually cared to read my argument, It has consistently been that like it or not, the anime community has to completely divorce itself from loli. Full stop. You can mention about tentacle porn and Berserk all you like, but they're truely small beer when compared with lolicon. It has become ingrained in the United States' culture that you do not mess with children in such an explicit manner, even as a matter of fiction. Simple as that. Remember that recently there was a large uproar over a scene in the indie picture Hounddog where 12-year-old Dakota Fanning was simulated being raped. She was clad in a flesh-colored body suit the entire time. The camera showed only her limbs during the sequence, and her parents and other responsible parties were on hand to make sure she was not inappropriately touched by the other actor in the scene. Still, it hit the national news as an item of outrage. Phil Berger, a North Carolina State Senator (Hounddog was filmed in North Carolina) has introduced legislation giving the state the power to review any film's script prior to allowing the usual subsidies to the production (tax breaks and the like), and denying said subsidies if whatever board of review is instituted objects to the content. Not to actually spell it out, this means that to film in North Carolina and benefit financially from their incentives, you may soon have to tailor your film's script to fit Raleigh's liking. Because someone thought it would be cute to nearly depict the rape of a child on film, rather than find other ways to convey the same plot information.

You mentioned Kubrick's Lolita, based on the novel by Vladimir Nabokov. The Hayes Office severely watered down the film's content to such a degree that Kubrick said had he known the extent of the demanded edits beforehand, he would not have filmed it at all. (Sue Lyons was chosen for the title role partly because of this -- the Hayes Office had demanded that Lolita's age be raised from 12 to 14, and Lyons had a mostly mature figure in relation to the other actresses competing for the role.)

This carries over to loli as well. The fact of the matter is that I believe that the attempted sale of loli materials would be disastrous for anime fandom. As I said before, it has not been that long ago that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson were inveighing against tentacle porn as if that was all anime was. Bill O'Reilly has gone on a number of (in this instance I believe correct, needed and sorely long-overdue) crusades against child predators and some judges who have been shielding them. It would not take too much of a twist for him and other talk-radio hosts to glom onto this if it becomes available and, if uninformed, make it into a new bogeyman.

And what I saw in the excerpts being proffered does not engender a lot of faith that this is not going to harm fandom in a way that much little else could, fans of the series' protests notwithstanding. Most people are not going to understand this, and if it genuinely is humor, they will not get the joke, as all they'll see is a young girl acting way too provocative and saying things that they will take severe offense at. And rightfully so. I make no bones that I find loli to be disgusting.

I've said it before as well -- Eisenhower's saying that a people who place privilige above principle will lose both. There are times where a line must be drawn and fandom says "we cannot allow this." Lolicon is one of those lines. And I will not bear to see fans ostracised when they pick up the latest Lupin or Miyazaki or (sigh... even) Naruto because someone sees it's from Japan and suddenly believes that the purchaser is a pedo, because all they know of anime is the existence of lolicon.

Finally, as a coda:

Quote:
A 8-year-old girl saying "I hope you will ejaculate in me?" This isn't Lupin ripping off Fujiko's clothes, or Ryo Saeba getting a mokkori boner. For crying out loud...this is almost tailor-made to offend the mainstream. I was certainly sickened by the excerpts, and I'm an anime fan. Think of how some parent or concerned citizen out in Lubbock, Texas, or Chattanooga, Tennessee, or Sacramento, California or Boston, Massachusetts might react.


I'm guessing they'll complain about their kids being exposed to it, and then look the other way when they get some assault weapons at the nearest gun show.
Rolling Eyes[/quote]

Again... lay off the straw-man arguments (as with this veiled reference to Columbine and other school shootings, as if it has any weight in the argument other than the obvious emotional impact). Stick with the argument you were confronted with rather than this glib attempt to misdirect.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
otakujohn



Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 39
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 10:27 pm Reply with quote
Unholy_Nny wrote:
John, your post made no sense... It doesn't really matter what's marketed to whom, if it's offensive in any way, shape, or form, it will get persecuted to atleast a small extent.

Wouldn't be that big of a deal though, negative attention towards violent video games is getting a tad boring, I think they really do need to move onto something new.



Well let me use a really extreme example... A huge number of people were outraged at Larry Flynt & co in the late 70s for the images and comics in Hustler, but rather than getting yanked off the shelves and banned, it proliferated.
That is an example of a product doing very well and having a huge number of fans regardless of all the bible thumping going on.
People bitched about Ozzie and later Marilyn Manson and did they get banned? No, they sold MORE because of the controversy.
Being scared of a little controversy just shows a lack of balls. I say play your pieces correctly and reap the reward.


pat_payne wrote:
It has become ingrained in the United States' culture that you do not mess with children in such an explicit manner, even as a matter of fiction. Simple as that.


I seem to recall a long running comic strip in the above magazine called "Chester the molester" in which a guy is constantly trying to get kids into the sack.
Yes, it is true that the powers that be attacked the artist himself and he even spent some time incarcerated because of his work, but they couldn't stop the machine and in the end he came out victorious. Was Dwaine Tinsley a bad man for drawing what he did? Well that depends vastly on who you ask.


Last edited by otakujohn on Tue May 29, 2007 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Jamee



Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 79
Location: North Carolina
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:04 pm Reply with quote
My 2 cents on the subject:

It is ironic that the person who first wrote into Answerman to complain about this book has probably gotten it more publicity than Seven Seas could ever hope to.

Think about it. There is no better publicity for a movie than when a bunch of parents and/or ministers get together and say "This movie is sick, it's offensive, it will corrupt our children!" Suddenly some little movie nobody cared about is all anybody can talk about. This situation is exactly the same. I had never even heard of this title until the first Answerman column about it. There are probably a lot of other ANN viewers who would say the same. People who wouldn't have given this title a second glance will probably be buying it just to see what all the fuss is about.

The minute you try to ban something people are going to want it even more. Even if they didn't want it before.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Unholy_Nny



Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 622
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:11 pm Reply with quote
otakujohn wrote:
Unholy_Nny wrote:
John, your post made no sense... It doesn't really matter what's marketed to whom, if it's offensive in any way, shape, or form, it will get persecuted to atleast a small extent.

Wouldn't be that big of a deal though, negative attention towards violent video games is getting a tad boring, I think they really do need to move onto something new.



Well let me use a really extreme example... A huge number of people were outraged at Larry Flynt & co in the late 70s for the images and comics in Hustler, but rather than getting yanked off the shelves and banned, it proliferated.
That is an example of a product doing very well and having a huge number of fans regardless of all the bible thumping going on.
People bitched about Ozzie and later Marilyn Manson and did they get banned? No, they sold MORE because of the controversy.
Being scared of a little controversy just shows a lack of balls. I say play your pieces correctly and reap the reward.


Oddly, I read your post in a manner that seemed that you were saying they should market it in a way that it wouldn't get very much exposure as to not create the controversy that would increase sales... Heh, guess we had the same view and it was just expressed differently.

I hate when that happens with my brother, we say the same damned thing on a topic and argue forever because we each worded it differently and saw it as some form of opposition.

Extra side note: I'm semi-ignoring payne and radda's posts because they seem to be extremists of the extreme variety who keep repeating the same mush of garbage over and over again and feel like it's helpful to a debate.(Even though they are on completely different sides on this topic.)

EDIT: @Jamee

Same here, I had never even heard about it before the answerman column. Although, the only thing keeping me from actually buying this manga now is the fact that my mother already picks on me for being a lolicon due to several small factors that I don't even really see as marking me as that...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9892
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:16 pm Reply with quote
Maybe ANN should open a poll, with nine options:

Have you read Nymphet and do you think it should be licensed/distributed in North America?
  • Nymphet what?
  • I've never read it / I've only read a few scanned pages; from what I've heard/seen I feel morally offended and it should not enter North America.
  • I've never read it / I've only read a few scanned pages; I don't feel offended, but distributing it will hurt the image of manga fandom so we should keep it away from North America.
  • I've never read it / I've only read a few scanned pages; I feel offended, but due to free market and free speech it should be distributed as long as the company sees fit.
  • I've never read it / I've only read a few scanned pages; I'm interested from what I've heard/seen and want to read it as soon as it's available.
  • I've read at least a complete volume of it; I feel morally offended and it should not enter North America.
  • I've read at least a complete volume of it; I don't feel offended, but distributing it will hurt the image of manga fandom so we should keep it away from North America.
  • I've read at least a complete volume of it; I feel offended, but due to free market and free speech it should be distributed as long as the company sees fit.
  • I've read at least a complete volume of it; I'm satisfied from what I have read and will acquire it / have been collecting it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number My Anime My Manga
pat_payne



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 179
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:27 pm Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
Maybe ANN should open a poll, with nine options:

Have you read Nymphet and do you think it should be licensed/distributed in North America?
  • Nymphet what?
  • I've never read it / I've only read a few scanned pages; from what I've heard/seen I feel morally offended and it should not enter North America.
  • I've never read it / I've only read a few scanned pages; I don't feel offended, but distributing it will hurt the image of manga fandom so we should keep it away from North America.
  • I've never read it / I've only read a few scanned pages; I feel offended, but due to free market and free speech it should be distributed as long as the company sees fit.
  • I've never read it / I've only read a few scanned pages; I'm interested from what I've heard/seen and want to read it as soon as it's available.
  • I've read at least a complete volume of it; I feel morally offended and it should not enter North America.
  • I've read at least a complete volume of it; I don't feel offended, but distributing it will hurt the image of manga fandom so we should keep it away from North America.
  • I've read at least a complete volume of it; I feel offended, but due to free market and free speech it should be distributed as long as the company sees fit.
  • I've read at least a complete volume of it; I'm satisfied from what I have read and will acquire it / have been collecting it.


That's not a bad idea, Dormcat. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Unholy_Nny



Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 622
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:31 pm Reply with quote
You also need to include options for not being offended but not being interested in reading it/not liking it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Abarenbo Shogun



Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 1573
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:34 pm Reply with quote
Jamee wrote:
My 2 cents on the subject:

It is ironic that the person who first wrote into Answerman to complain about this book has probably gotten it more publicity than Seven Seas could ever hope to.

Think about it. There is no better publicity for a movie than when a bunch of parents and/or ministers get together and say "This movie is sick, it's offensive, it will corrupt our children!" Suddenly some little movie nobody cared about is all anybody can talk about. This situation is exactly the same. I had never even heard of this title until the first Answerman column about it. There are probably a lot of other ANN viewers who would say the same. People who wouldn't have given this title a second glance will probably be buying it just to see what all the fuss is about.

The minute you try to ban something people are going to want it even more. Even if they didn't want it before.


I smell a marketing ploy by Seven Seas. Hype up a new title by attaching controversey. Then act like the responseable corporate citizen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
otakujohn



Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 39
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:41 pm Reply with quote
pat_payne wrote:

That's not a bad idea, Dormcat. Smile


A poll would only make sense if it were truly representative of all anime fandom on the internet, which isn't really possible without the poll being heavily advertised.
If the poll is just limited to the ANN userbase it would be badly flawed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
pat_payne



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 179
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:46 pm Reply with quote
otakujohn wrote:
pat_payne wrote:

That's not a bad idea, Dormcat. Smile


A poll would only make sense if it were truly representative of all anime fandom on the internet, which isn't really possible without the poll being heavily advertised.
If the poll is just limited to the ANN userbase it would be badly flawed.


How so? ANN does not represent the polls as being either scientific (in which case it would have to be a randomly-selected sample and not just a "everyone who wants to vote, c'mon in" sort of thing) or representative of fandom as a whole. It's merely a guage of feeling of the readership of ANN, just as any poll you can take on any news website is unscientific.
:


Last edited by pat_payne on Tue May 29, 2007 11:51 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:48 pm Reply with quote
Well, I have to say, this has been an interesting conversation. Everybody's going to have their differences here, I think if we keep this kind of conversation up, nobody's going to like each other here. I think I'm going to step down now, and I may have been changing my opinion everytime I posted here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
chicogrande



Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 190
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:51 pm Reply with quote
Jamee wrote:
My 2 cents on the subject:

It is ironic that the person who first wrote into Answerman to complain about this book has probably gotten it more publicity than Seven Seas could ever hope to.

Think about it. There is no better publicity for a movie than when a bunch of parents and/or ministers get together and say "This movie is sick, it's offensive, it will corrupt our children!"



It's got Dakota Fanning getting raped!


Jamee wrote:
Suddenly some little movie nobody cared about is all anybody can talk about. This situation is exactly the same. I had never even heard of this title until the first Answerman column about it. There are probably a lot of other ANN viewers who would say the same. People who wouldn't have given this title a second glance will probably be buying it just to see what all the fuss is about.

The minute you try to ban something people are going to want it even more. Even if they didn't want it before.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 5 of 8

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group