Forum - View topicMushishi (TV) (w/ index).
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Elfen12
 Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
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I hadn't even thought of it that way, that could very well be the case here. However, one can relate this back to the idea of Shirou's .... well we'll say, "choice of words" in the beginning of the episode. In his choice of words in the beginning of the episode when he's talking of how he lost Michichi, i believe hew as sort of deameaning her (although aya, i'll get back to replying on what you said about this further in my post), this form of repentance, was clearly all motivated by self-interest. Perhaps one can call it selfishism. I think Shirou is naturally a sort of self centered person but totaly in an unconcious way. I'll state why. After realizing what he said once he reached the shore right after he lost her, he realized he made a grave mistake, one that he probably thought at the time he would never get over. Anyone would want to do all in their power to make it up to the perosn they hurt, in this case, his significant other. However, he goes into a deep state of reptentance, or i don't know if that's the right vocabulary, but he waits as his form of repentance. Waits for her, in a form of what he thinks is bieng kind to her, actually sitting and waiting for her. However, he was only doing that for himself, i think he wanted to get rid of his guilt, he wanted to apologize just for himself, and not to clean up the pain inflicted emotionally upon Michichi. I know this is a bold assumption and there is a key fact that i would need to complete this to call it evidence, but it's just a feeling i get from watching Shirou throughout the episode. However, to argue this point, when he moved into the town later on, he was showing his kindness to the villagers of this oceanside village. I think that was also a form of repentance for what he has done. He had no one to be kind to just waiting there on a beach, waiting for something that he should have known logically that woudln't ever happen (however it actually could have waht with the time difference in the fog and out in the rest of the world). But as i was saying, he had no one to be kind to, and in the end i think that's waht he just wanted to acomplish. He would have done that when he finnaly got to see Michichi again, and that is what he did untill he found out she was a mushi. I believe this was sort of a self satisfaction, this meaning his moving into town, and forcing that villager to pay more for the fish that that young kid was selling. It apperred to be a tad more affective then just sitting there on the beach, waiting. Just a little tidbit to add in.
I think my writing got a little to carried away, becuase waht i was trying to say is that yes, what Shirou said was going overboard, and here you have a girl who has had life that is nothing less than great... and yes she goes all the way out of her way to go with who she thought was a caring loving significant other... only to find out that he sort of wans't. What he said wasn't a good thing, and it was perfeclty legitimate for Michichi to think that, and she did. The fault lies in Shirous concience now, she only did her prat in a relationship: caring, loving, puting others before yourself... but in return she recieved a nasty attitude that demeaned her values. I thought i sort of said that, but perhaps not, my baad, but indeed, you said it well too. Or perhaps am i missing something from waht you are saying aya?
Indeed, that is very true, i like how you turn it into alittle lesson too with the rest of your post. It's very interesting. But yes, so in a way, they both had their problems, which didn't make the relationship complete. On one side, Michichi wasn't confortable enough to speak her mind, even though it may have been assertive, she still should have at least maybe trieed to mention it. But then yes, Shirou has his basket of thorns as well, sharper thorns probably. He was so cold hearted for the breif time we got ot see how he was in front of her. Although, i doubt he isn't always like that, the point is is that he was once, and that's all that matters to screw something up. You bring up an interestin' point. But for further analysis and opinions regarding the episode (i really think that this episode has a lot to talk about, it adressed a multitude of key points of not only the flaws of mankind, but the common mistakes that one makes becuase or not becuase of those flaws; they can be indepenent of those flaws as well) (i used a semi-colon  ) ... but yes, i think also something rather significant sort of in the episode was how the boat was destined to come back after 3 years with everything but her. I think that represnted old memories coming back. I think that iwht anything like that, or any other significant thing in ones life, espeically something like your sig. other leavin' and then waiting for a good portion of your life for 'er, well it'll bring back some memories. I like how they had it so she didn't come back in the boat. It represents that it is and only is a meomry, and not the real thing. Her clothing came back, the boat came back, and even that person sort of tried it on on the beach... it just is telling us that memories are memories, and it is nearly impossible to push them out of our head. They'll just be pushed into our uncouncious... (the great big mysterious ocean), but will drift back someday (to the shore, our concious mind). Just a metaphor, but in action in the episode... i thought it was pretty cool hwo they did that, a unique method of representations being shown through means of a beautiful metaphor... i think at least.
Both Tony and aya, always bring up great points about this show, as do the ohters who post. -Elfen12- |
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aya_honda
 Posts: 920 Location: Around here |
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Elfen12 wrote:
I don’t know if you’ve heard this before, but it is said that every generous act that we make in our life is bound by a sense of selfishness in our own nature. I don’t know exactly what to say but I think that I can understand your impression and it might be true. Shirou does seem the reckless type of guy who wouldn’t like anything more but being relieved from the guilt. But whenever we want to make peace with a person, whom we have hurt, aren’t we all doing it, not necessarily because we feel guilty (even though the feeling might be genuine) but also because we want to get rid of this guilty feeling as well (thus implicitly being selfish)? I don’t know if I make myself understood I think this is also what happens to Shirou. In the end, there’s also the other possibility where he might have moved on a long time ago, but didn’t: he chose to stand there and wait for a sign from her and also repent for what he said. He also gets his chance to say ‘goodbye’ and even more, for a moment is tempted to leave with her although Ginko points out that he doesn’t see the shore anymore (therefore being in danger of becoming a jushi himself); perhaps this is why I think that his feelings of repentence were genuine – in the end he had truly wanted to be with Michihi, only that they haven’t done the things that were supposed to do: being more assertive as Tony mentioned. And at that time it was too late anyways, since Michihi turned into a mushi. Elfen12 wrote:
No, it is my bad and I am sorry. I read your post once again and you are right: you said the same thing as well, so sorry again for the misunderstanding (as a pitiful excuse, I shall bring the argument that English isn’t my native language.) But then we don’t have to ‘disagree’ anymore so that’s fine with me. 
Tony K.wrote:
I agree with you, absolutely not, but then again it seems such an impossible goal to achive because we are after all only humans. Emotions and feelings often get a hold of our reason and in spite of the fact that we try our best, sometimes we are rather conquered by our impestuous way of living. I find myself in the position to say that I try as much as I can to know what to say at the right time and to do the rightful things, but I fail most of the time miserably. When in arguments, I really don’t know what to say; I let the person just say what she wants to say and then I see myself keeping silent because it is impossible for me to retaliate. And then later, after the quarrell, I find myself thinking ‘Oh, why didn’t I say that? Or this?’ Nice and perfect words don’t come to us but at least, we should try not to be in Shirou’s shoes: just saying all the words, without caring whether the person is hurt or not. I particularly dislike when words are thrown out just to harm someone. That’s even worse for me. So that’s why this is more a dream than a wish for me. Tony K. wrote:
Thank you. I feel better now. Perhaps the episode is also trying to teach us a lesson about the importance of words in a relationship and not only, with the people around us as well. BrothersElric explained beautifully in a post in the Kino’s Journey thread about the importance of words and compromise in a relationship. (I would make a link if I knew how  ). Words are easy to harm and even harder to make them be forgotten. Shirou is learning it on the hard way. And they didn’t seem the type of couple who communicated nicely before the incident. They had missed the chance to know each other well. Perhaps this is also a reason for what has happened.
Elfen12 wrote:
You have forgotten yourself in this list. 
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11293 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Bleh. Okay, so I didn’t get to post this episode last Friday like I wanted, but here’s a double dose.. right.. now!
Episode 09: The Heavy Seed (clicking this will take you back to the Index) ---------------------------------- Comments The big themes here are power, responsibility, and sacrifice. Power: You can do a lot with power. In particular, you can change things. As Uncle Ben said it best, “With great power comes great responsibility.” Here, we get a taste of what it’s like to possess great ability (be it natural, superhuman, or with the help of some item) and the effects it can have on one’s psyche. The head priest clearly had the power to save his village from starving with that Nazaru seed. And I’m sure if given the opportunity to make a difference, especially something as beneficial as a giant harvest, we would more than likely accept the task. But wait, there’s more to power than just blindly wielding it and hoping to do good. What about control? As Ginko mentioned when he was trying to uncover the presence of the seed, having so much power can sometimes cloud our better judgment. If we do it once, what’s to stop us from repeating? And with that comes the responsibility part. Responsibility: As with any action we take or privilege we’re given, there’s a certain degree of responsibility that needs to be taken. Much like the last episode where we talked about being self-aware of our thoughts and surroundings, the same principle can be applied here, but with a little more circumstance riding on the line. So the head priest has the ability to plant this seed and save the village, but at the cost of his own life. Perhaps you can look at this as a sense of atonement for when he planted it the first time, which caused his wife to become the sacrifice. We saw him contemplate a bit over the whole idea as Ginko was telling the seed’s history, so we at least know the priest has a conscience. In the end, he decided to be the last sacrifice and to destroy the seed. This is a prime example of what it means to exercise your morals and desires to do, not necessarily what you should, but what you want. While it may seem nice to have “power” in the sense of superhuman abilities, magic, or whatever, one of the greatest “powers” that a human can ever possess is the power to make a choice. And in vein of that power, the priest knows he indeed can do great things with the seed, essentially damning himself with his predicament, leading us to sacrifice. Sacrifice: For some reason or another, this theme has just incessantly been popping up in front of me ever since I watched The Dark Knight. Yeah, it’s a common theme, but a very noble one at least. And in allusion to Batman, Spider-Man, Lelouch Lamperouge, Dr. Gregory House, or whatever superhero kind of character you want to pick, we can see that they all share the common trait of possessing great knowledge or power -- the kind that can make a difference. But something I’ve noticed since I started watching House M.D. a few weeks ago is that a lot of “great” characters that usually have “that ability” or whatever tend to punish themselves in an almost self-masochistic way. I mean, it’s what great people do. They sacrifice some part of themselves in exchange for attaining a higher goal, to live up to an ideal, or achieving some duty they feel obliged they just have to do. And this is what separates the good from the great, the “power” to sacrifice, to do what no one else can or is willing to do. However, the drawback also tends to result in these characters being “broken” in some fashion as well. And in the case of this episode, it results in the self-sacrifice of the priest’s own life, though not entirely since he did become immortal and all at the very end. But that's the chain of power of power for ya'. If you obtain it, use it wisely. If you possess too much of it, it can sometimes lead to or be a result of sacrifice. Ultimately, it can lead to great things. Just be mindful of what you're doing and whom it might affect. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11293 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Episode 10: The White Which Dwells Within The Inkstone (clicking this will take you back to the Index)
---------------------------------- Comments Hm.. I actually had a difficult time pinpointing any real themes in this one. I thought the episode itself was very enjoyable, but I didn’t pick up on anything in particular. I did get hints of pride and obsession, I suppose. Pride & Obsession: I feel they go hand in hand, so I’ll be lumping the two together for this stint. Both pride and obsession are represented through Adashino and Tagane. Adashino takes pride in his collection of weird and unusual things. And in being so prideful, it leads him to obsess with wanting so many of those. Hence, the storage room of odd ends and amenities and those kids getting sick. Tagane displays her pride by wanting to succeed her father’s inkstone business. In addition, her fiancé’s parents want her to desist in the continuation. And to disprove their hesitance, while at the same time proving her own pride to her father, she proceeds to make that inkstone. The moral here is to not be so prideful. I can consent to this. I consider myself to be very competitive and full of pride. I hate losing, as I’m sure most people do. But for me, I go absolutely ballistic when I lose. I won’t take defeat for an answer. If I lose, I don’t get angry, I get angry and even. If you beat me at a fighting game I know I’m good at, I’ll be sure to let loose the next match and thoroughly kick your ass, and that’s that. For further examples, consult Shinomori Aoshi from Kenshin or Denzel Washington’s character in the movie Man on Fire. That’s what I aspire to be. But yeah, pride and obsession; they can lead to crazy things. ---------------------------------- That’s all I’ve got for this one. I hope someone else came up with something else because that seems a little sparse for one episode… |
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aya_honda
Posts: 920 Location: Around here |
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Episode 9
Ah, yes, one of the most powerful drugs on the planet; I always thought that what makes a great leader it's not the power itself but the will to control the power and the resposibilities that come with it. Power is, as you said, most of the times blinding. And we don't have to go that far to analyze the life of a great leader: we can look at ourselves. When having a small power in our hands we feel in that overpowering position when we are the ones to decide: even if it's a job decision or even in our love life, if we have a certain power over the person we love. It's usually surrounded by pride, and I may be wrong here, but somehow I think that the head priest had a little pride in him. Holding such a power to influence the lives of his people and the fate of the land on which he stood, that must have been gratifying in some way.
But before this (when he has decided to be the sacrifice), there were the lives that the rich crop has caused. When talking about the seed itself and the damages that it can produce, we find out that every year, when the seed is used someone dies. Usually, someone who is weaker. I don't know why but the idea of sacrificing someone (yet again  like in the episode of the 'swamp girl') for the benefit of others is still something controversial for me. For me it didn't matter that the person sacrificed was weaker (thus making the boy's mother a possible sacrifice - until we find out later on that actually the man is poisoning himself), a human life is still a human life. I know that in point of numbers, mathematically, the loss of one can't be compared with the loss of many but still even then we are talking of a human life after all. I can't really know how to dicuss about it. (Guess, I will never be a leader  )
The head priest tells Ginko how he decided to use the seed for the first time knowing which the consequences might be for a specific person. I had the impression that had he known about the illness of his wife, he wouldn't have used it anymore, because he didn't want to lose her. I kept wondering about this. It seemed selfish: on the one hand he wanted to do something great for the village and make them keep on working the land, on the other hand he didn't want to lose his wife. He planted the seed thinking that someone else would be taken. I wasn't impressed then that he couldn't eat because he was thinking about what he has done to his wife. I wondered whether he would have thought like this if it were another person. And then he decides that he would sacrifice himself and that he would be the last victim of the seed. Could we speak about atonement in this case? Well, I saw in this and in the fact that he has become immortal a sort of atonement. In the end along generations in that village some people were sacrificed for the rich crop during hard times. It may have been something with which everyone lived, fully understanding the magnitude of something like this, but still a loss of human life was made. For the decisions that the head priest had made (actually one, concerning the first plantation of the seed), he can finally repay with his own life (but remember it is something that it is consciously chosen ). I think that on the other hand he had a great love for the land on which he and his people lived and this is why he is travelling to foreign lands afterwards and bringing back new agricultural techniques: he wanted to see that land finally grow to his full potential and thus save a way of life as well.
Episode 10 Another theme that I have picked up in this episode (again, I hope I'm not reading much into it) would be curiosity. The children entered in that house where Adashino kept his possessions due to curiosity; it is said that curiosity killed the cat - they experience something like this at the moment when they get ill and all of the sudden they are in danger of losing their lives. Of course, the children don't have the consciousness of such an act, but we as adults tend to see the things in a different light. Isn't strange that as children we are far braver and far more curious than as adults? It may be due to the fact that we tend to have the innocence with which we see the world. We aren't so much afraid because in a way we have a certain ignorance of the dangers that surround us. But as adults we become more conscious and we tend to be afraid of the consequences as well. By the way, I think that responsibility comes into discussion as well, because both the woman and the doctor are responsible for something: while Tagane is responsible for making that inkstone (as a result of her pride in demonstrating that she can be good although she is a woman - something that both her fiancee and his family disapproved in some way), Adashino is responsible for storing those mushi 'souvernirs' which can be very harmful for the inexperienced one. I am encouraged to believe this especially because I think both Tagane and Adashino experince the feeling of guilt. While Tagane knows that the particular inkstone has made a number of victims, including her fiancee, Adashino knows that his irresponsibility made him think that no one would be interested in what he is keeping in that house. When the children are healed, Tagane starts to cry (?) and she says that she is so happy in a very realeaved voice. Adashino is also tormented by what he has done and we see him before Ginko comes bak with Tagane, tormented by the idea of what he has done. And then when the children are safe again he is happy too. Responsibility is also shown when Tagane decides to pay the rooftops broken by the mushi that she has freed, even when she knows that she might have to work all her life. On the other side, Adashino seems not to have learnt his lesson thouroughly since he is so much against in freeing the mushi. )
On a little side note:
You know, being a big fan of Aoshi Shinomori, I might say that the moral is a good one which he learns it on the hard way. Yes, he has the ambition to spoiler[become the best for the memory of his men, who sacrificed themselves for him ]- by the way that episode was one of the most heartaching ones in the series - but he pays a price too high for his pride and he turns into someone else; his men spoiler[sacrificed themselves not because he was the best, but because he was a great leader and a right man.] The Aoshi Shinomori who fights with Kenshin Himura in spoiler[Makoto Shishio's library is far from the man for whom his people sacrificed. Perhaps this is why he also loses to Kenshin and his eyes are finally opened.] Ambition is good only when used in the right direction. Ambition mixed with obssession (and Sinomori definetely had something like this) never has good consequences. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11293 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Woah, I completely missed that one. Now that you mention it, I actually remember a little of the guilt Adashino felt the very first time I saw this episode. I thought he was a little hard on himself since it was the kids' fault for being kids and letting their curiosity get them into such a situation. Personally, if I were Adashino, I wouldn't have let myself get so worked up. But that's because I don't like children...
I have plenty of obsession, but zero ambition. Actually, this reminds me of Episode 07. I forgot to follow up on the whole "living for living's sake" concept. You had Kourou chasing rainbows to prove something to himself. But when he finally found it and learned of its true nature (through a lot of "obsessing"), he turned it into ambition and built that bridge. Here, you have Adashino obsessing with his collection, but with no real ambitions. And then you had Tagane, who obsessed with the inkstone, but was so ambitious that it indirectly led to a few deaths and her own misery. That's basically 2 cases of obsession without ambition, and 1 case of obsession with ambition, plus one more if you consider Aoshi's character, which just goes to prove your point. So this brings me back to the question of what it means to live? Does one need any kind of obsession, ambition, or a combination of the two to be considered living a life worth living? Is the high strung 6-digit-salary lawyer from Harvard putting away drug dealers any better than the simple-living, retail store-working anime fan who just wants to enjoy his friends, movies, manga, anime, video games, and love life? I think a lot of people have these thoughts and question their own self-worth every now and again, but that's okay. The problem lies in the answer. However, it's my opinion that as long as one can find some semblance of happiness or meaning in themselves, it doesn't really matter who or where you are compared to others. Again, it's that whole "natural occurrence" theme running throughout the series that fascinates and enlightens me. It teaches that "what is, is just the way it is." Don't worry. |
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aya_honda
Posts: 920 Location: Around here |
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But I think that Kourou experienced both obssession without ambition and obssession with ambition (complicated!): for five years he has chased the rainbow knowing that it was all futile and that even if he would catch the rainbow, only him and his father would be able to see it. I think that at the time he was just caught up in the whole obssession of catching the rainbow that he didn't mind anything else. Only after meeting Ginko and his experience with the mushi, did he understand that there's no point in his obssession and in the end he built that useful bridge. On the other hand, Adashino's obssession without ambition is interesting as well, because from the beginning one realizes that collecting something in a way it's futile: there's not specific purpose other than admiring your collection every now and then (still, knowing this I still like to collect certain things ) But nothing good comes from his obssession other than endangering people (he is after all collecting something which many times -not always- proves to be dangerous  from this point of view to me he is still guilty for those children; he should have taken care a little more about the security of his own possession; even Ginko tells him that). But then again, I like children and so I might be subjective about this. 
Yes, this is what makes the series so natural to me. It's fascinating in its own simplicity and perhaps this is what also makes the series quite enjoyable to watch without looking necessarilly for a deeper meaning. I believe that the quesion about the worth of life of every individual lies within that particular individual. It is an answer which we give every day or in extreme circumstances. I really don't think that the measure of one's life can be given by others. I am the only one to determine the purpose, the struggles and the ambitions for which I want to live. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11293 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Seeing as how users are eager to revive the ANN Book Club, with this particular series in mind, I'm reviving this thread for the time being to let some of you catch up on what you've might've missed. Feel free to discuss past episodes that I've already posted about.
I have a few things that are preoccupying me for the next couple of weeks, but I'll try to prepare some updates for around the beginning of June including plot summaries and screen caps (or maybe beforehand if I can make some time). I'm also open for any suggestions you all might wanna' make about the current template of this thread and whatnot. Now, post! If you people really want me to go all-out on this again, I need more than 4 active users this time. |
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aya_honda
Posts: 920 Location: Around here |
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Since I have patiently waited for this thread to be revived for more then half a year, can I say just how glad I am to see this message? As for the rest of the people who might join our discussion (we were few to begin with) I think we should be a little more invinting, don't you think? But even if there wouldn't be four posters, couldn't you just post the updates? I am sure people will be more than pleased to come here once that the discussion restarts. Anyways, I will patiently wait again and just hope for the best.
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daxomni
 Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
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To be completely honest, even though Mushi-Shi is an excellent series worthy of strong praise with many interesting angles to discuss, the main problem I had with actually posting in this thread was the wall of text that meets your eyes when you open it. Most of the time I find myself wishing people would go into more depth but this thread almost looks like a formal dissertation. It's probably all in my head, but it almost feels like trying to jumping off an overpass onto a truck flying down the highway. I really enjoyed it as a rental but never purchased it. I wonder how much of a hit the impressive visuals take when being streamed...
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11293 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Dude, it's okay. I believe in most of the people around here to be competent enough to post well-thought out replies. I and the others that posted the really long ones just happened to have a lot of time on our hands. Even one single comment or question can be turned into a multitude of discussions. I never intended for people to get scared of my big posts, but I like this title a lot, and that's how I show it. Formal or informal, though, if you like the series and wanna' say something, don't be afraid to say it. I can accommodate all kinds of posting styles. |
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arachneia
 Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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Hm. I love this show, but I feel that it's very much what-you-see-is-what-you-get, and most of the responses here really reflect that. Personally, I'd be greatly interested in hearing about the Japanese myths and legends that may have influenced the different episodes.
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11293 Location: Frisco, TX |
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The mythology is of great interest to me as well. This and many other titles that tend to make reference to possible folklore and stories have always peaked my interest, including:
Ayakashi Horror Tales Ghost Hunt Hundred Stories Jigoku Shoujo Mononoke I haven't seen Ayakashi or Mononoke yet, and have only seen a few episodes of HS and the first season of JS, but the supernatural and/or moral implications of the stories/episodes seem really cool to me. Again, this goes back to my comment on the first page about how the curiosity of the unbelievable can tend to make the nonbeliever (i.e. people like me that may be atheist, yet somewhat open to the possibility or idea of a hypothetical situation) believe that impossible might very well be possible. I mean, that's why any of us like fiction in general to begin with, right? To be entertained or stimulated in some manner? |
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Maidenoftheredhand
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The manga-ka was inspired by Japanese folklore in general but I get the sense that each specific story was not influenced by any particular folk story/myth and they are all made up stories by the author. Whereas with Mononoke for example each story arc deals with a different specific Japanese youkai like the bakeneko. For Mushishi the manga-ka seemed more influenced by nature and things she saw in their natural setting and from these she would develop a story around them. |
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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I don't mean that each episode has a direct parallel in myth; rather, there would be subtle details that allude to some facet of folklore and religion that would go unnoticed by most Western viewers because we are unfamiliar with the tradition. |
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