Forum

Cephus wrote:

Certainly it may be beneficial to have the writers available if you run into questions on what they intended when they wrote a particular part

My point exactly.

Quote:

fansubbers do, whether you like it or not, accurate, well-written translations every day.

Every day?

I have to admit that I don't watch every single fansub out there. In fact, I only watch on average 1~3 fansub episodes a week.

But from my rather limited sampling, my experience has been that most fansubers make mistakes. Since I don't speak Japanese, I probably don't catch all the mistakes (which is scary), but I know it's a mistake when they come up with a sentence that makes no sense at all.

Now, I'm not complaining, they provide a free service with no intent of being rewarded. The better fansubbing groups rarely make any mistakes that actually muck up a show (while some fansub groups regularly ruin shows), and as long as they don't ruin a show, I think their efforts are acceptable and commendable., When a show is ruined due to poor translation by fansubbers, I think it would have been better if they'd never even fansubbed it. The Hellsing TV series for example.

I'm just trying to point out that they are very far from being infallible.

The industry also makes mistakes, and when they make mistakes, everyone has a right to complain and nail them to the wall for it, because we are paying for it and as customers we shouldn't have to put up with any translation errors.

But by large, my experiences with the companies that do faithful translations suggest that they have a better track record than fansubbers do when it comes to quality translations. There are fewer grammar mistakes & typos, and a lot fewer phrases that are useless.

The worst thing that companies do, and IMHO, as a hardcore fan, this is unacceptable, is change the meaning of a piece of a show. By large fansubbers never intentionally do this, so I'll give them credit for being more reliable in this instance. Unfortunately they strive way to hard to be faithful, and often times come up with horrible, literal translations that do not carry the original intent.

For the most part, most of the companies "behave" these days when it comes to sticking with the show's original intent. So right now, if I want a quality translation, my money is always on the industry,

Are they perfect? No. In fact, there are too many mistake IMHO, but I still catch fewer mistakes in commercial anime subs than I do in fansubs.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not the least bit trying to insult fansubs here. The nature of the fansub "market" is that fans don't want to wait for their fansubs, and fansubbers have limited resources, so for currently airing TV series, we're rarely going to get flawless translation. As long as the translations aren't butchered, this is something I can accept from fansubs.

I've stated it before, but I really look forward to a day when we don't need fansubs. When the latest anime is available commercially subbed and dubbed in English online, on TV and on video at the same time it is available in those same formats in Japan.

But we're not there yet.

And as long as the industry isn't able to render fansubs redundant, people like you and me are going to continue watching them. But after watching the fansubs, people like me get the DVDs because we expect more from the DVDs and we usually do get more.

[Here's a nifty example of professional writing vs. reasonably good writing: I'm relatively happy with the above post, it took me about 4 minutes to write, and I think it is acceptable for a forum post. But I would never, ever post something with the technical quality of the above post as an editorial. To say the exact same thing in an editorial I would spend a good 30-60 minutes writing the article. I would then proof it once, leave it for two or more hours and proof it again, and then I would send it to another ANN editor to have them proof it and provide feedback. If I'm lucky it would then be posted, but chances are I'd probably end up making revisions based on the other editor's input, and then those changes would have to be proofed.]

-t

Cephus wrote:

tempest wrote:

The best translation is a translation were the translators do it properly, and get approvals from the original writers.

I'll agree with the first part, the second part is irrelevant. Words have meanings, once they write their script, translating those words into other languages is relatively straight-forward for anyone who understands the languages and, in many cases, the cultures involved. Certainly it may be beneficial to have the writers available if you run into questions on what they intended when they wrote a particular part, but I can't imagine their sign-off would be essential since fansubbers do, whether you like it or not, accurate, well-written translations every day.

As an English major, I'll have to disagree with that. Translation is not an entirely straightforward process. As has been mentioned earlier in this discussion, a literal translation leads to awkward phrasing. The translater constantly has to make decisions about which way to go with any given line, and there are places where each of the options is appropriate.

Part of the reason for sending the translation back to the original writer is to check to see if the decisions made were the right ones; that is, if they would be more faithful to the spirit of the original work than alternate varieties.

Incorrect choices can lead to emphasis of the wrong things, a character that doesn't have the same general personality as the original, or, worst of all, direct misinformation.

I picked up the freebee Newtype at Comic-con & have subscribed since

In the beginning Newtype included dvds & posters as well as a centerfold & often a pull-out postcard section. At one point they argued they had to raise costs to keep the freebees in or drop the freebees. Ultimately we lost the insert poster & the postcards in the name of keeping the dvd which in a way is a joke since it's really a promo for the various anime. My teen picks up the Japanese version all the time now because of all the little giveaways-pencilboards, etc. The posters were really sort of cheap so I never cared when they went away.

One of the arguments I've seen against dvd releases being closer is the Japanese companies have argued they still feel Japan is their #1 market. DVDs there are obscene--look at how everyone screamed over the cost of the Bandai VIsual releases-sub only. Either Japan is going to have to change their way of charging $30 or more/2 eps per dvd or Americans will have ot accept prices more in line with the Bandai Visual prices, otherwise the Japanese seem reluctant to release stuff close to the same time for fear the Japanese fans will inport our copy for less.

Other countries have to wait for our stuff. Last I heard, they don't get Smallville the same month we see it here in the States. England at one time had something like a 6 month delay & there's no issue of dubbing or translating.

tempest wrote:

The best translation is a translation were the translators do it properly, and get approvals from the original writers.

Just a question.

If I get the above statement correctly, the implication is that translators in the industry will sometimes get the original Japanese writers to check whether they approve of the official English version of the script in terms of accurately preserving the spirit/meaning of the show.

But the thing is, how could the Japanese possibly do that?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of Japanese, writers and directors included, have very poor English. So how can they possibly look over the script to check whether it conforms to their originals? Even if they can understand every sentence translated, I doubt that they will go into the specifics of grammer and actually check the "flow" of things 'cause I mean, how can they?

That's unless another translator takes the time to explain stuff in the English version to the creators...but as we know double translations almost never work.

I'm not pro-anything in this debate. But I'm certainly curious to find out exactly how this process is done in the industry.

Here is an example for you...

I run a fan translation group (no details) and I had a few arguments with my collaborators because our translator is japanese and his english lack the "edge" to make a translation that sounds like what you hear everyday from people close to you.

I edit usually the scripts and I have to make them "English friendly" and a few guys started complaining that our translations were crappy and not accurate...

Then I brought my argument on that:

Japanese people speak in a very different grammar, text, slang, and communication details that simply cannot be processed "Word for word"
and you have to stray from the original words used to make a more dynamic
sentence without making the character sound like he is a turist trying hard to speak a language.

The scene starts with a punk attacking a famous wrestler on the street and the wrestler took one punch straight that knocked him down instantly.
The punk is trying to prove himself as a better fighter but he later thinks that what he did was cheap and it had many advantages that pretty much gave him the victory.

In the scene, when he talks to a friend and the guy ask him

"How do you won so easily?"

He answers "Booze was in"

We can take this translation and improve it like "Alcohol was involved" or "It was the Booze's Fault" but japanese people already know the deep meaning and adding this sentence literally will just confuse the readers or misguide you thinking he was fighting for an argument because of the alcohol.

Observing the situation and comparing the text with the situation presented, without any knowledge of japanese I edited "Booze was in" with a simply
"He was drunk" and now everyone knows that the wrestler couldnt fight because he simply drank too much and clouded his senses.

Literal or Accurate not always make the book fun to read, in translations you have to even exclude or completely change many words that normally would be translated "as it is" and change it for something closer to your own meaning.

That's why when fans tell you "this translation sucks" they need to have a very good argument for saying that, in first place, their arguments cannot be trusted if he/she still need subs to understand.

Xenofan 29A wrote:

As an English major, I'll have to disagree with that. Translation is not an entirely straightforward process. As has been mentioned earlier in this discussion, a literal translation leads to awkward phrasing. The translater constantly has to make decisions about which way to go with any given line, and there are places where each of the options is appropriate.

That's why I said relatively straightforward, certainly there are some terms that don't translate well and then you have to transliterate and decide how to best convey the thought in another language that doesn't have a straight equivalent. In a lot of cases, you just have to come up with something close but that's how translations have been done for centuries.

Quote:

Part of the reason for sending the translation back to the original writer is to check to see if the decisions made were the right ones; that is, if they would be more faithful to the spirit of the original work than alternate varieties.

Most of the time, the original writer doesn't speak English to begin with so it's not going to help much to show the translated script, they won't have a clue.

Quote:

Incorrect choices can lead to emphasis of the wrong things, a character that doesn't have the same general personality as the original, or, worst of all, direct misinformation.

All things I've seen more often in official translations than in fansubs. Sure, the fansub groups may get it wrong occasionally, but they usually have a huge group of people watching that catch it and get it corrected, which is why you get fansubs being released in second and even third versions. You don't see that in official subs.

nightmaregenie wrote:

But the thing is, how could the Japanese possibly do that?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of Japanese, writers and directors included, have very poor English. So how can they possibly look over the script to check whether it conforms to their originals? Even if they can understand every sentence translated, I doubt that they will go into the specifics of grammer and actually check the "flow" of things 'cause I mean, how can they?

I hope you also extend this logic to the multitudes of anime fans who claim that the Japanese language track is always better and all English dubs suck or complain about inaccurate translations when their Japanese is very poor or nonexistent.

nightmaregenie wrote:

If I get the above statement correctly, the implication is that translators in the industry will sometimes get the original Japanese writers to check whether they approve of the official English version of the script in terms of accurately preserving the spirit/meaning of the show.

But the thing is, how could the Japanese possibly do that?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of Japanese, writers and directors included, have very poor English. So how can they possibly look over the script to check whether it conforms to their originals? Even if they can understand every sentence translated, I doubt that they will go into the specifics of grammer and actually check the "flow" of things 'cause I mean, how can they?

That's unless another translator takes the time to explain stuff in the English version to the creators...but as we know double translations almost never work.

I'm not pro-anything in this debate. But I'm certainly curious to find out exactly how this process is done in the industry.

You're right. I'd guess that way, way more than 90% of all approvals do not reach the original writers. They reach a representative of the company who does speak English and has discussed the show with the creators (sometimes extensively, sometimes not). When in doubt, this person can always go to the translators, and say "did you mean this... or that?"

So no, the original creators/scriptwriters/directors aren't usually bothered with the approval process. Although I do remember some specific instances when they've been involved.

Still, getting the approval of someone who represents the company that created the show, who has that company's interests in mind, and knows the show well, is a lot better than nothing.

-t

Zac wrote:

I hope you also extend this logic to the multitudes of anime fans who claim that the Japanese language track is always better and all English dubs suck or complain about inaccurate translations when their Japanese is very poor or nonexistent.

Fortunately, I've never had the misfortune to meet people like that Cool

.
To me, blanket generalisations like "all official English translations are bad" just don't make any logical sense, especially when the people making them often have no convincing evidence (due to, as you've said, sucky Japanese) to back up their claims. Same with the dubs. Regardless of which language we're talking about, some dubs are bad but some are also good and that's the fact of the matter. Japanese dub fanatics = Japanophiles.

tempest wrote:

You're right. I'd guess that way, way more than 90% of all approvals do not reach the original writers. They reach a representative of the company who does speak English and has discussed the show with the creators (sometimes extensively, sometimes not). When in doubt, this person can always go to the translators, and say "did you mean this... or that?"

So no, the original creators/scriptwriters/directors aren't usually bothered with the approval process. Although I do remember some specific instances when they've been involved.

Oh cool, it's good to see how Western distributors have such respect for the original works.

Eh, I suppose that I'm one of the Manga Cows, but I get out of the way and never damage the book. (I spent two days crying because I messed up the spine of a book once. No exaggeration.) Plus, I only read things that have been heavily recommended and usually end up buying them afterwards.
I'd read them in the library or on a scanlation site, but it's a bit hard finding Demon Ororon or After School Nightmare in stores, let alone anywhere else.

I see a lot of people viciously attacking those anime fans who like to intersperse Japanese words in mostly English sentences. Yes, it is often annoying. Yes, it's obvious those fans have no real knowledge of the Japanese language. But if you honestly feel the need to insult, call it stupid, and *insist* that it is 100% wrong, then I can't help but wonder if you know anything about language and linguistics at all.

English, as in the language that is used on this site and on these forums, is hardly the pure language many of you seem to make it out to be. Countless words we use every day have roots from other languages, such as Latin, Greek, and French. But, I guess since we have adopted these words over time, that's ok, but since very few Japanese words have been adopted into mainstream English, it's wrong to use them. Makes sense. We must ensure the purity of the language after all! Except that ignores basically the whole history of human languages. Many of the languages used throughout the world today have evolved over time. For a simple example, go try and read a book in Old English (Beowulf seems to be a favorite) and compare it to a book written in current-day English. To say that people should not make up new words or new meanings for words or use words from other languages is a sign of ignorance at the very reality that languages change whether you want them to or not.

But you're not arguing along those lines, are you? Kawaii-kids are annoying because they only use the limited Japanese they have caught on to and they only use it to act cool or as an indication that they are a member of a certain group (IE: their fellow anime friends), right? However, when the Japanese use English in the same manner, it is perfectly acceptable. Admittedly, Japan has been incorporating foreign (English and other western languages) words into their vocabularly for the past 150+ years, but that doesn't excuse them completely. Many anime and manga use English words specifically for the "cool" factor, in a similar fashion to the kawaii-kids. You can't honestly say that Franky in One Piece yelling "Superrrrr!" is a legitimate usage, or that Tite Kubo's constant usage of Spanish (and other non-Japanese languages) in Bleach is any better. The simple reality is that manga writers use these foreign words for emphasis and to "sound cool," and they use them in Japanese sentences. Yet, when a teenager adds -chan to the end of their friend's name, suddenly it's revolting and idiotic. It's ok to dislike it because you think it's annoying, but saying that it is unacceptable and an innappropriate usage of language is to say that you are ignorant of the way language is used all around the world.

On a related note, I read a post early in the thread stating something along the lines of "Japanese people have to take English classes, so it's ok for them to use English words because they know the language." Ok, then would you please explain to me why so few Japanese can speak fluent English? I'll answer for you: it's because they learn English the same way many Americans learn Spanish/French/German in high school. They learn some basic vocabularly and grammar, but after they are no longer taking classes, they forget most of what they learned and only remember a few words. Your argument might make more sense if Japan had a history of turning out fluent English speakers, which anyone can tell you is far from the truth.

Sorry for this long rant, but it gets frustrating reading countless posts from people who have a sense of elitism or holier-than-thou syndrome and want to say that it is absolutely wrong to use a Japanese word in any other situation than speaking Japanese. I personally find it annoying, but believe it's better for them to try and use Japanese than not. If they get interested in Japanese, maybe they'll eventually make an effort and try to learn the language (which is more than can be said for most of the naysayers here) or at the very least gain a better understanding of Japanese culture, history, etc... It is a natural thing to be excited when you discover something new or learn something that interests you. The way I see it, I'd rather have people be excited about something instead of sitting around going "that's not cool," "that's stupid/immature," "grow up," and so on.

Cicatriz wrote:

Shonen series aren't the only series that are terribly repetetive with their script. I groaned every time I heard "Daijoubu!?" yelled in Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon and Lyrical Nanoha. I hate when characters say other character's names over and over too. It's like the only way to show concern/support is to yell/cry their name.

The last I checked, "daijoubu?!" means something along the lines of "are you alright?" It's a fairly common line in any show, since the same thing is said when someone may be acting funny or sick ("are you alright?") or someone may respond with same thing in response to such questions (I'm okay, I'm okay). It's one word that works as a question or a response, so its hardly surprising to see it a lot in fighting shows and its not exactly uncommon in non-fighting shows. In other words, I don't think that really qualifies as a cliche.

More or less the same thing on the names.

Shirt wrote:

Many of the languages used throughout the world today have evolved over time. For a simple example, go try and read a book in Old English (Beowulf seems to be a favorite) and compare it to a book written in current-day English. To say that people should not make up new words or new meanings for words or use words from other languages is a sign of ignorance at the very reality that languages change whether you want them to or not.

The problem with this is that the development of English occurred in Europe, as did Spanish and French and other Romance languages derived from Latin. English itself is classified as a West Germanic language. Europe is a relatively large area that was and is politically fragmented and populated by numerous peoples that meshed and aided in the evolution and assimilation of the distinct languages over time. Japanese at best can be classified into the Altaic language family or more generally as a language isolate.

Preteens snatching a few phrases from the Japanese language in modern America cannot be compared to evolution of the English language over a couple thousand years. We've absorbed several words that don't have an English equivalent like sushi and karaoke in recent years as globalization increased, but they remain very very few.

We also didn't have Japan coming over during and after wars helping to reconstruct the economy and in effect, the nation. Their syntax has absorbed loan words and substitutes not only because of the proliferation of contemporary American culture and language, but a historic basis from which the language has incorporated foreign loan words.

Who knows, maybe the Japanese language will proliferate itself in the future as much as English did and is doing.

Quote:

However, when the Japanese use English in the same manner, it is perfectly acceptable. Admittedly, Japan has been incorporating foreign (English and other western languages) words into their vocabularly for the past 150+ years, but that doesn't excuse them completely. Many anime and manga use English words specifically for the "cool" factor, in a similar fashion to the kawaii-kids. You can't honestly say that Franky in One Piece yelling "Superrrrr!" is a legitimate usage, or that Tite Kubo's constant usage of Spanish (and other non-Japanese languages) in Bleach is any better. The simple reality is that manga writers use these foreign words for emphasis and to "sound cool," and they use them in Japanese sentences. Yet, when a teenager adds -chan to the end of their friend's name, suddenly it's revolting and idiotic. It's ok to dislike it because you think it's annoying, but saying that it is unacceptable and an innappropriate usage of language is to say that you are ignorant of the way language is used all around the world.

I will somewhat agree with this, because understanding English fluently, using incorporated loan words and using random English words are completely different. The last usage is annoying and shallow.

Case in point: certain Korean words like kiss and wife. Kiss is an acceptable use as a loan word because the Korean word for "kiss" is rather uncommon and awkward (that and its amount of time in usage by the general populace). The Korean word for "kiss" is literally a conglomerate of "mouth + meeting" which is awkward in both English, and Korean in the way it sounds out phonetically. Kiss fits a cultural and a linguistic gap.

However, a more recent absorption into the language is the usage of the English "wife." There's a perfectly fine Korean word for wife, two in fact. However wife has come into common usage these days due to Americanization and the "cool, hip, and modern" factor. Not only is it shallow and redundant, it sounds terrible because "wife" comes out sounding like "wipe."

Korean kids (ahem, celebrities) that throw in random English words into their everyday speech/lexicon whether or not grammatically correct to appear cool sound like asses.

As for why English usage in foreign media is more acceptable than the other was around can simply be (or simplified, whichever you prefer) accredited to Americanization of the world.

How many Norwegian films do we have showing in the majority of our theaters right now?

There is a difference in a general populace using a select amount of foreign words due to cultural invasion and fans of a niche community using a select amount of foreign words in their speech simply to show off their fan pride.

And Kubo, well, he uses Spanish generally in a thematic manner more than in a grammatical manner. I mean, I don't think his characters go, "Man, this enemigo is really tough! I'd better bust out mi superpotencia stereotypical to ataque this hombre!" But yeah, the "cool factor" usage is there at times.

SharinganEye wrote:

Preteens snatching a few phrases from the Japanese language in modern America cannot be compared to evolution of the English language over a couple thousand years. We've absorbed several words that don't have an English equivalent like sushi and karaoke in recent years as globalization increased, but they remain very very few.

...understanding English fluently, using incorporated loan words and using random English words are completely different. The last usage is annoying and shallow.

I have to say, I cannot agree more with this. Very Happy

As to Shirt...

There is a difference between borrowing words from other cultures because your own doesn't have the exact equivalent, and just superficially using random foreign words when your native language can do just as well, solely because you think it's "cool."

I've never found the people who deliberately insert unnecessary foreign words into their speech funny or cool. I find them ANNOYING, SHALLOW, and IDIOTIC. It's not just the teens, the same goes for the Taiwanese news reporters using the Japanese words for "delivery" and "soaking in hot spring" because that's what's fashionable. Like I said before I also find the extremists who deliberately misspell things in their own language in order to worship another disgusting.

A lot of people seem to share the same sentiment and that's us forming our OWN opinion and has nothing to do with whether or not we think we're morally correct as you seem to suggest. We're just saying we find those people irritating but we're not by any means promoting the idea that ALL people should do what we think is best.

Quote:

"Man, this enemigo is really tough! I'd better bust out mi superpotencia stereotypical to ataque this hombre!"

Someone help me! I can't stop laughing!

This just sounds bad...hilariously bad.

Calculusman wrote:

Levitz9 wrote:

Zac wrote:

I really don't get how people can defend the manga cows so vociferously. It'd be like walking into best buy, opening up a DVD and watching it there on your DVD player, then putting it back and moving on to another one. "What's so bad about that?" is probably what someone like Steroid would say.

I can understand reading something in the store, so long as you do buy something. The reason Borders and Barnes & Noble allow people to read in the store is because it's supposed to encourage business, not to allow teenagers a free place to read all the manga they want. It's become so bad around where I live in Orange County, California, that they've started putting up signs that say you can't read manga in the store, and they've started kicking groups of kids out of the comics aisle. It's no good for business if you have kids loitering in your store, manhandling your merchandise and never buying anything.

I'm starting to think the wholesale bootlegging and distribution of Japan's pop culture on the internet has started turning some people into pseudo-communists who have started to turn on capitalism, solely because it means they get shit for free without ever having to pay for it and justifies their being ridiculous spoiled cheapskates. Some of the rationale behind this stuff is definitely pointing in that direction.

Let me pose this question: those of you who watch massive amounts of fansubs, read scanlations and graze the manga shelves at the bookstore, what kind of entertainment do you pay for? Anything? Do you only pay for video games because you can't figure out how to bootleg them? Do you sneak into movies, or download camrips? At what point does someone who's trying to entertain you get something in return?

This is a point I sent Answerman for my Answeran submission (which, from what I read, doesn't compare to the other ones and wasn't posted); here in Puerto Rico, bootlegging has become a culture. People prefer to pay $20 for five camripped movies with horrible sound, worse visuals (sometimes, you can't even see the whole screen!), and terrible subtitles, all because it's cheaper than going to the movies.

It's a different case, in Puerto Rico, for those who like Anime; there simply aren't any stores around. Sure, there's a small comic book shop here and there (i.e., tiny ones, like one per every three cities), but the Borders' and Suncoasts are all but rare stores in only the biggest of malls in the Metro area. Wal*mart has a few anime, but it's usually just InuYasha or DBZ. In our case, unless you have a car, and a part-time that pays well, then you simply won't have the money to pay for a car, cell-phone, college, and anime at the same time. Fansubs are our only choice.

However, I'm not against buying anime. I feel bad for taking the developers shows and not paying for it. Still, I just don't have the money for it all...

Just a question...are online stores like Amazon or rightstuf out of the question when it comes to buying things there?

The people who can (and that's a large number, lemme tell you!) don't. They still prefer bootleg. My uncles must have plenty of credit cards, and prefer bootleg to buying off of Amazon.
As for me, well, I don't have a credit card. And like I said, cash is short anyway; I could make a money order...if I wanted to starve for lunch. On the other hand, I'm kinda dense, so there's probably a solution to this (perhaps a job...) that I'm not seeing.

Forum - View topic
Hey, Answerman! [2007-08-17]

Crunchyroll Announces English Dub Cast, Release Dates for Wind Breaker, An Archdemon's Dilemma, A Condition Called Love Anime

At 25:00 in Akasaka BL Drama Cast Discuss Kiss Scene, Personal Hobbies at Live Event

This Week in Anime - Are This Season's Isekai Anime Any Good?

Voice Actor Dave Underwood Dies at 57

The Spring 2024 Anime Preview Guide

Fans Say Farewell to Yokohama's Life-Size Moving Gundam

This Week in Anime - What Do You Do When Your Fav Anime Isn't Simulcast?

Ragna Crimson Manga Volume 11 Review

Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2007-08-17]

Forum

Forum - View topic
Hey, Answerman! [2007-08-17]