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zeno99 wrote:

Its nice to know that this forum has some of the most ignorant people I've ever seen. It must be nice to be able to hide behind a user name.

What's that supposed to mean? Because I have a Youtube channel which exposes my face so...yeah.

Well anyone who claims they speak for all Christians gets a automatic -Fail- from me. Plenty of Christians enjoy anime and manga and the reasons given earlier by TexasAnimeFan for why they don't are just bunkus (maybe TexasAnimeFan knows Christians like that but that is their limited frame of reference showing) Mad

.

As for this manga being successful - I think it could be. The Christian market place is huge, so I can understand why they want to tap into it. IMO, how successful this is going ot be is going to come down to the final product. If the art is third rate, it isn't going to sell any better than a poorly drawn secular manga.

Also which translation of the Christian Bible they go with may influence sales as well. Personally, I'm curious to find out which version they do go with for this project. I think the most likely versions they may go with are King James or NIV (or even a combination of the two), but they could also opt to use the Catholic version as well (Christians are a very diverse group of individuals even when it comes to what text they're using Smile

).

huangm777 wrote:

I dunno about this to be honest. It's going to depend a lot on how it's told; just sticking a few stories on in manga art style and hoping it will work won't cut it unless it helps us to see something differently or sheds new light on the text in some way. That's what the entire history of Christian art at its best has done. And quite frankly, the evangelical publishing houses have a very good track record in producing watered down, self-helpish pablum that tends to gloss over the more difficult parts of the Bible, a lot of which would be very interesting to see in graphical form. (The entire story of King David, for instance, which is really one of the grandest and saddest tragedies ever penned.) Will the manga style art and storytelling capture the Bible in its angular, raw beauty and ugliness, or will it be safely sanitized for Christian kids, who I suspect is the market for this? Veggie Tales or the magnificent Barry Moser illuminated Bible?

Oddly enough, one of the better examples of Bible art I've seen are the Biblical sections of Craig Thompson's graphic novel/memoir, "Blankets." I wouldn't mind an entire Bible done in that kind of style.

I'm in seminary, btw, so I have somewhat of a vested interest in this project. Smile

Mike
http://animediet.animeblogger.net

Well said Mike.

I actually received a preview copy of this (Manga Messiah), since I have connections with a Christian missions agency in Tokyo that works specifically with the arts (yes, missionaries like anime and manga too. It's only the crazy people that don't actually know a thing about their faith that speak out against things they don't know or understand). I have a few conflicting opinions on it.

1. It's the Bible with pictures. That's really all it is. They didn't stray from the original text at all, which is good and bad in some points. Good in the fact that it is accurate; bad in many other ways. Mainly, the artists just never really hit their stride. Also, (personal rant here) though Jesus is the lord and savior of my life, he's not an interesting main character. He has no internal struggels, so it is hard to relate to him. The fact that this manga cast Jesus as the main character just shows that it's told in an amaeturish way.
2. Anyone that thinks this is propaganda or connected to Focus on the Family, Zondervan, or any other American Christian institutions is missing the point. This is a Japanese manga done in Japan. We are just getting the translation of it. It was not MADE for US. For Japanese people, Bible stories are not old hat. They are new stories that people have never heard before, and are thus fresh. It would be like if there was a manga made from the Bhagavad Ghita. In America, we would find it much more interesting than someone from India would find it.
3. It's a good start, but ultimately, these Japanese artists have a long way to go. Their art is not even close to top-notch. The only thing that sets this tankubon apart from the rest is that all of the pages are colored. I really hope that they hit their stride with the next release.

And for those that commented on Evangelion... well, it's about as Christian as George Bush is. That is to say, it has a lot of Christian things IN it, but the Christian references are less than coherent by the end. And the Lance of Longinus is not actually part of the Bible at all. It's part of Catholic mythos.

BleuVII wrote:

2. Anyone that thinks this is propaganda or connected to Focus on the Family, Zondervan, or any other American Christian institutions is missing the point. This is a Japanese manga done in Japan. We are just getting the translation of it. It was not MADE for US. For Japanese people, Bible stories are not old hat. They are new stories that people have never heard before, and are thus fresh. It would be like if there was a manga made from the Bhagavad Ghita. In America, we would find it much more interesting than someone from India would find it.

I thought this was like contract work where they pulled in those artists to work on a series for them? That is, in the sense of Toriyama providing character designs for Blue Dragon (which is boring as ever). Is it a license?

Quote:

And the Lance of Longinus is not actually part of the Bible at all. It's part of Catholic mythos.

At least it's badass. Wink

zeno99 wrote:

Its nice to know that this forum has some of the most ignorant people I've ever seen. It must be nice to be able to hide behind a user name.

Hi. Welcome to the Internet.

Also, for anyone interested, check this great image out.

Image originally by the creator of Hookie Dookie Panic! Check out his work when you get a chance. Great stuff.

Deleted.

BleuVII wrote:

2. Anyone that thinks this is propaganda or connected to Focus on the Family, Zondervan, or any other American Christian institutions is missing the point. This is a Japanese manga done in Japan. We are just getting the translation of it. It was not MADE for US.

Is that so? The publisher is an American company, and a quick search on Amazon.jp tells me that no Tyndale book was released in Japanese so far (they list many books by the publisher but only in English). This is not saying that this Manga Bible will not be released in Japanese, of course, but everything I've seen so far signals a primarily American target audience. The way they assure people that it's drawn by real Japanese mangaka "unlike other Christian "manga" books in the marketplace." The name "Manga Bible" (and the names of their planned series, "Manga Mutiny," "Manga Metamorphosis," "Manga Malech" and "Manga Messengers") is typically what an US company would come up with for a US audience. It's in all color. Etc.

BleuVII wrote:

That is to say, it has a lot of Christian things IN it, but the Christian references are less than coherent by the end.

By the end? The symbolism (not only the Christian part) is not coherent from the beginning, but then, the creators have long since admitted that they only used the symbolism for the coolness factor.

BleuVII wrote:

I actually received a preview copy of this (Manga Messiah), since I have connections with a Christian missions agency in Tokyo that works specifically with the arts (yes, missionaries like anime and manga too. It's only the crazy people that don't actually know a thing about their faith that speak out against things they don't know or understand). I have a few conflicting opinions on it.

1. It's the Bible with pictures. That's really all it is. They didn't stray from the original text at all, which is good and bad in some points. Good in the fact that it is accurate; bad in many other ways. Mainly, the artists just never really hit their stride. Also, (personal rant here) though Jesus is the lord and savior of my life, he's not an interesting main character. He has no internal struggels, so it is hard to relate to him. The fact that this manga cast Jesus as the main character just shows that it's told in an amaeturish way.
2. Anyone that thinks this is propaganda or connected to Focus on the Family, Zondervan, or any other American Christian institutions is missing the point. This is a Japanese manga done in Japan. We are just getting the translation of it. It was not MADE for US. For Japanese people, Bible stories are not old hat. They are new stories that people have never heard before, and are thus fresh. It would be like if there was a manga made from the Bhagavad Ghita. In America, we would find it much more interesting than someone from India would find it.
3. It's a good start, but ultimately, these Japanese artists have a long way to go. Their art is not even close to top-notch. The only thing that sets this tankubon apart from the rest is that all of the pages are colored. I really hope that they hit their stride with the next release.

And for those that commented on Evangelion... well, it's about as Christian as George Bush is. That is to say, it has a lot of Christian things IN it, but the Christian references are less than coherent by the end. And the Lance of Longinus is not actually part of the Bible at all. It's part of Catholic mythos.

That's not quite true as it is mentioned in Mark, Mathew, and Luke. but it is only a generic mention. Also according to achaeologist the Romans never invented a lance that looked like a giant pickle fork either. In actuality the Bible as we have it today is a very edited and watered down version that was left to us by the popes and vatican theologans from past centuries. Indeed there is a raging debate going on centering around the Dead Sea Scrolls. Those who have translated and studied them say they are a copy of the New Testament written in the very early days of Christianity when it was outlawed and banned from the public by the Romans and the Heroidic Jews. It depicts Jesus as a much more human, down to earth, (no pun intended) kind of guy who enjoyed life and living, and even implies he fell in love and married Mary Magdolin. Now that is the Bible I want to see in a manga. Wink

Mohawk52 wrote:

In actuality the Bible as we have it today is a very edited and watered down version that was left to us by the popes and vatican theologans from past centuries.

I wouldn't say "watered down"... It's just that back when Christianity was shiny and new and the legends were still developing, there existed were many different, often conflicting stories, just like how there are many different, often conflicting stories in Greek, Germanic, etc. legend. The difference is that in case of Christianity an "official" canon was created later that excluded bits and pieces that weren't deemed acceptable. But even then, different ages and cultures want different heroes, and early Christianity was very different from the way we know it today. For example, in early medieval Europe Jesus wasn't seen as a kind and gentle soul who forgives his enemies and turns the other cheek - he was a victiorious, glorious leader in the war against evil (= heathens and of course Satan), the perfect warlord and ruler of people. There's an Anglo-Saxon poem called 'Christ and Satan' in which Christ (not God) defeats Satan and drives him out of Heaven, into Hell. (In fact, the pagan Germanic and early Christian value systems could be merged pretty smoothly, as seen in 'Beowulf,' for example).

I'm a Christian. I have many Christian friends (and non-Christian) who love anime and manga. I usually consider this verse from the Bible (Philippians 4:8) "Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things." when selecting anime to watch and manga to read. It doesn't have to be "clean"- because life is not clean and that wouldn't be true to life (plus I would miss out on a lot of cool anime and manga). It is important for Christians to embrace our world- not shun it. Jesus participated in many of the customs of his day, but he did not sin or make others feel uncomfortable around him. He accepted them for who they are and loved them. We (as Christians) should do the same- and be genuine about it.

There is a lot of anime and manga that communicates truth. There are tons of anime and manga with noble characters and messages. There is a plethora of manga and anime that explores what righteousness and purity means. Most anime and manga is lovely- the artwork is pleasing to the eye (some more than others). The actual work of creating a manga or anime is an admirable task- lots of hard work, planning, determination, creativity, and passion ( these are things that God has created us to do). There are countless anime and manga that are excellent and praiseworthy. I do think about anime and manga- my friends do to.

I'm author working on an adaptation of the life of Paul (the apostle). I think it is better to adapt the Bible (but stay true to it) - using tons of research from history, archeology, and other contemporary texts - than quoting it word for word- when working on an original piece. This allows for more creativity (from the artist) and can make the stories more relevant and accessible to a larger audience. The Bible is more than just a book with stories- it illuminates the way to God. The stories told from there and the ideas gleaned from the Bible must do the same (in my mind). If the Manga Bible doesn't do that then it isn't worth making or reading.

Osamu Tezuka not only created animated Bible stories- he also adapted the life of Buddha with a few inventive twists; but he stayed true to the original character and his teachings. What's the point in just showing a story that has been told before, unless the author brings something new and fresh to it? Any artist that attempts to retell any of the greatest stories ever given to mankind, must strive hard and to stay true the original source- but at the same time give a bit of themselves to the audience. Tezuka did that with his works. I hope the Manga Bible artists did that as well.

I can't make a judgment on the Manga Bible- just like I can't judge most anime and manga from their cover art. I'll have to see it for myself, till then, I hope it is excellent and praiseworthy.

PS
The debate about the Dead Sea Scrolls and the validity of the present Bible are mostly done by people who are biased against the Bible in the first place. They are looking for "evidence" that makes it false. No good detective or scientist goes looking for evidence with a predetermined outcome. They let the evidence speak for itself. The Dead Sea Scrolls were written by a Jewish sect called the Essenes and the Scrolls were written before Jesus was born- they had no knowledge of his existence, even if they were contemporaries because they lived in the mountains (and deserts) far from the reach of Jerusalem and the watch of the Romans. Also remember, the best fiction appears to be reality - which is why the Da Vinci Code is such a great work of FICTION.

Fiction Alchemist wrote:

I think the idea of a Christian manga is awesome. I'm not a person of any religion, but religion, mostly the stories in the Christian bible, have inspired me in my work (much like they have for some manga/anime creators). Now, instead of anime or manga making references to the bible, we get one BASED ON the bible. I hope it's played straight-forward and accurate to the book, without any embellishments.

Should we get a separate series for old and new testaments? Anime smile

I'd have to agree with you! It would be nice if it was an honest, strait-forward, well-researched book without embellishments. And it would also be awesome if the Tanak (Torah , Nevi'im and the Ketuvim - the old testament) was also adapted with honesty and creativity.

Yun Yun wrote:

HAHA Jesus Christ! HAHA slash community over religion.
I wonder if there is a slash community over Santa Claus and the eastern bunny D=... No wait I better don't ask I don't want to know....

Oh man. This is amazingly stupid God doesn't even have gender D=;; ...and aren't angels also genderless?....

I hope there's no Doujinshi... but after this ( ALL the subject ) I think there's everything *shivers*

ewww, I hope the Easter Bunny never gets in bed with Santie Claus. eeewww lol At least in the Angel Sanctuary slash section they are referring to the manga Angel Sanctuary and not the real, Biblical angels. I think it's funny how there is a slash community for the Bible. I have friends who are slash fans, so I know not all slash fans pick random people from a hat, but some slash fans go to the extreme. (they wouldn't go this far, and most wouldn't just some) I'll double check if any of these are under the humour category since some slash couples are humourous.

@ everyone who quoted me (not going to do 6 quotes in 1 message): I wasn't trying to offend anybody with my statement there. I don't even agree that Christians shouldn't like anime. It's ridiculous how many ChristiansI've seen watching shows/ listening to music/ reading books in America that aren't reccomended by Focus on the Family, etc, but hate anime because it's "so evil".

What I meant by "most anime doesn't glorify the Christian God", I meant... well, it doesn't. For example, Death Note touches on the subjects of murder, the main character desiring to become a god of his new world, etc. Not exactly family-friendly or moral, imo. I'd venture to say most hentai contains alot of sexual content . I'd give more examples, but I'm probably in enough trouble as it is, so I'll stop here.

I'm not trying to start a religion war here; I don't think I deserve the blame if it does, but I'm not going there.

Hopefully now we can continue the disscussion of the actual products mentioned in the article. (which I believe I mentioned before I thought were a very good idea if done correctly).

TexasAnimeFan wrote:

@ everyone who quoted me (not going to do 6 quotes in 1 message): I wasn't trying to offend anybody with my statement there. I don't even agree that Christians shouldn't like anime. It's ridiculous how many ChristiansI've seen watching shows/ listening to music/ reading books in America that aren't reccomended by Focus on the Family, etc, but hate anime because it's "so evil".

What I meant by "most anime doesn't glorify the Christian God", I meant... well, it doesn't. For example, Death Note touches on the subjects of murder, the main character desiring to become a god of his new world, etc. Not exactly family-friendly or moral, imo. I'd venture to say most hentai contains alot of sexual content . I'd give more examples, but I'm probably in enough trouble as it is, so I'll stop here.

I'm not trying to start a religion war here; I don't think I deserve the blame if it does, but I'm not going there.

Hopefully now we can continue the disscussion of the actual products mentioned in the article. (which I believe I mentioned before I thought were a very good idea if done correctly).

I agree, (surprised this isn't a debate over religion, which is great that no one started one.) I know some people in my church who though Sailor Moon was evil because if she didn't get her magical powers from God, then she got them from the devil. (Which is a stupid arugment because it's a fictional show and clearly doesn't promote satanism.) There was a topic like this on Hey Answerman where, in Japan, Christians count for like 2% so it doesn't come to a surprise that anime doesn't have those Christian values. That's why some Christians think anime is evil. (which is strange because TV and films in North America don't have a lot of Christian values but anime seems to be the bulls eye on a target. *cough DOGMA cough*) Just because it doesn't have a Christian message doesn't mean people should pass on it. (I like Angel Sanctury and you don't see me worshiping the devil)

TexasAnimeFan wrote:

What I meant by "most anime doesn't glorify the Christian God", I meant... well, it doesn't. For example, Death Note touches on the subjects of murder, the main character desiring to become a god of his new world, etc. Not exactly family-friendly or moral, imo.

Not family-friendly, but the moral of the story is that the main character's logic is flawed and what he's doing is wrong. Which is the case with many similar anime (and manga) out there - and many anime/manga that deal with controversial topics have an overall positive moral (the most obvious example that comes to my mind is the anime version of Trigun). Values such as forgiveness, respect of life, etc. are not exclusive to Christianity, after all.

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