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Why do a lot of Gundam fans hate SEED Destiny?


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IchigoK90



Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1634
Location: Scarborough, Ontario
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:01 pm Reply with quote
vtnwesley wrote:
Admittedly, I've only watched about 5 episodes of Gundam Seed Destiny. I've seen all of Seed. Gundam Seed I thought was pretty good with just a handful of overly predictable plot points.

Destiny seemed kind of like they didn't know what they were doing with the plot. Even as early as what I was watching it seemed like a silly unneeded string of battles. Throughout a lot of better Gundam material, there is usually some kind of reason for the fighting. Some major interconnecting plot involving characters, politics, and various plot devices. Destiny seemed to lack much of this coherency. Maybe it gets better later? I don't know. As much as I like the Gundam universe, Destiny just seemed boring to me. Aside from being shallow in the plot department, I guess it wasn't all bad. Some of the battles were cool to watch.


Episode 5 huh? Thats well short of the spoiler["Break the World Incident"], after you see that you'll somewhat see the reason for fighting.
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vtnwesley



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Natrona Heights, PA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:05 pm Reply with quote
IchigoK90 wrote:
Episode 5 huh? Thats well short of the spoiler["Break the World Incident"], after you see that you'll somewhat see the reason for fighting.


Maybe I quit too soon? I don't know. I'll probably try it again sometime if you really think that is important for me to "get it". Perhaps an anime rental service or cheap boxset is in order.
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IchigoK90



Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1634
Location: Scarborough, Ontario
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:08 pm Reply with quote
vtnwesley wrote:
IchigoK90 wrote:
Episode 5 huh? Thats well short of the spoiler["Break the World Incident"], after you see that you'll somewhat see the reason for fighting.


Maybe I quit too soon? I don't know. I'll probably try it again sometime if you really think that is important for me to "get it". Perhaps an anime rental service or cheap boxset is in order.


Oh i'm not saying to watch the whole series, I'm just saying that if you want your reason for why they fight you'll find at least one reason from that incident.
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:32 pm Reply with quote
IchigoK90 wrote:
HitokiriShadow wrote:
Kruszer wrote:
Well, I still like it just as much as I did when I first posted on the thread and I'm two more discs farther into it. I haven't been able to locate a copy of 12 that wasn't fragged yet so thus haven't been able to finish it. Crying or Very sad

So I'm with you at least unless the last 3 or 4 episodes are series ruining lameness. Smile

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our Gundam Seed fanboy dead.


The last few episodes are actually not that bad compared to the 15+ preceding it. If you still like it after episode 30-35ish, you probably won't have any problems (perhaps aside from yet more recap episodes). Most people thought it the series went down the crapper around the Destroy Gundam incident or spoiler[right after Kira "died"] at the latest and many thought it went to crap very early in the series.


I thought it started to go down the crapper when spoiler[that guy in faith was killed by Stella. He was around for like what? 1-3 episodes].


I don't recall when I thought it started going downhill, I just remember that it was the whole Destroy Gundam incident where I thought it hit the point where it couldn't possibly redeem itself. And indeed, it just continued going downhill until the last 2-3 episodes, which weren't that bad considering everything that lead up to them, though they were far from good.
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Kruszer



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 7981
Location: Minnesota, USA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:49 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Destiny seemed kind of like they didn't know what they were doing with the plot.


Personally....I think that's true for most of the Gundam series. Not all of them are apparent right away as far as what direction they'll take. They're a little more complicated, either by design...or maybe Sunrise does just wing it (no pun intended Razz ) as they go along. At any rate what you end up is usually some kind of unique take on the same old anti-war message, with new characters, and plent of new mechs to sell model kits. They just seem to meander along until bang it all makes sense at some point. Doesn't keep me from liking what I see though. Smile
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zaphdash



Joined: 14 Aug 2002
Posts: 619
Location: Brooklyn
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:06 am Reply with quote
It's funny that vtnwesley actually gave up on Destiny after only five episodes; the first seven or so episodes were by far the strongest part of the entire show, and, in my opinion, perhaps the best first seven episodes of any Gundam series as it really drops you right into the middle of the action and gets a seemingly interesting plot (oh, how looks can be deceiving) underway much more quickly than in most other Gundam shows. Unfortunately, it fails to sustain that level of quality for the rest of the show. It actually suffered from the same big problem as the most recent season of 24 -- if you shoot your wad at the very beginning, where is the show supposed to go from there?

I'm not exactly sure when, as I was watching the show during its initial run, I realized it was headed in a bad direction. It's really just something that gradually became apparent over the course of the show and had become quite clear by the time spoiler[Kira destroyed Athrun's Saviour] in episode 28. Having seen the entire show now though, I can pinpoint the exact moment when, in my opinion, it all started to go wrong: episode 13, when spoiler[Coordinator assassins were sent to take out Lacus, spurring Kira and the old Archangel crew into action.

I put it at that spot for two main reasons. The first reason is the attempt on Lacus's life. There was speculation from the very, very beginning that Dullindal was going to be dirty. There was no surprise whatsoever when he developed into the show's villain, everyone saw it coming from a mile away. The show really might have been more interesting had his nice guy act from the beginning of the story been genuine. For many reasons, not the least of which being that the "Destiny Plan" plot was dumb as hell, I would have preferred to see Dullindal as a protagonist. I suppose you could actually take the roots of evil Dullindal back a few episodes further to the first introduction of Meer, but Meer on her own doesn't really ruin the show, plus this particular event impacts not just the stupid Dullindal-as-villain plot point, but the show's other huge flaw, which is:

The Archangel crew begins to take a more prominent role as a direct result of this event. There was nothing left to do with Kira, he had already grown and developed as a character in the first show. He has no further development to undergo, which is why he's essentially a godlike character in Destiny. Yet Kira commands an inordinately huge amount of screentime for as unimportant as he is (or rather, should be) to the story. The result? Shinn, ostensibly the story's true protagonist, never receives much character development and even slowly morphs into a villain because Kira is set up against him. If it is not immediately obvious why this isn't good for the story, it has been discussed at length in previous threads, so I'm not going to get verbose about it right now. Suffice to say, it's very shoddy storytelling.]


If I could redo Destiny, even if I had to retain all the LOGOS BS and whatnot, here's what I would do: the beginning of the show would play out more or less the same as it did. Orb, against Cagalli's wishes, would join the Alliance against ZAFT. However, Cagalli would not nearly marry Jona (who would also be portrayed more realistically, not the whiny, frightened little brat whose crying was probably supposed to be funny but only amused nine year olds) and have to be kidnapped, she would join the Archangel crew of her own accord from the beginning. Minerva would still have to escape from Orb as in the show, possibly with Archangel's help (or maybe Archangel would escape later, I dunno). Dullindal would be a protagonist, though the Archangel crew might have trust issues with him anyway. Clyne Faction may not ever officially join ZAFT, but would support Minerva. Archangel, which I only include in the story at all out of necessity (since it wasn't destroyed in SEED, what else could have happened to it?), would just be hanging around in the background much the same as Kusanagi in the first show; hell, maybe it'd even get destroyed at some point, I dunno. Kira would fill a role similar to Amuro in Zeta; Athrun would be the show's Quattro/Char, as he was clearly meant to be early on anyway. Shinn would be thoroughly a good guy and the main character; I mean given his background and all he'd still be a fiery, hot tempered kid, but his ridiculous Darth Vader storyline would never take place. Rey would probably still end up a villain, but as an agent of LOGOS (who it would be revealed are the puppetmasters behind all the genetic manipulation stuff, Coordinators, cloning, Extendeds, etc) rather than Dullindal. Dullindal himself wouldn't be so painfully aware of LOGOS, as he is in the existing story; LOGOS is something that would only gradually come to light, at which point ZAFT and Alliance would fight together against LOGOS (which has infiltrated both of them pretty extensively, so it'd be a bit like when OZ turned on the Alliance in Wing). At this point I'm getting sleepy and just kind of rambling and not putting this together coherently, so I'm gonna cut myself off. But honestly, although I don't have any idea whether my Destiny would have turned out any better than the existing show, I do think that it addresses what I feel are the show's biggest existing story flaws. There are obviously a lot of unanswered questions here, mostly because I haven't put a ton of thought into it on account of this being a pretty useless exercise in the first place. But I think it takes the basic pieces of the existing Destiny story and reshapes them into a decent enough starting point for a good story. I mean it started out with a lot of promise. It just unfortunately derailed very early on and never recovered.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:05 am Reply with quote
zaphdash wrote:
Having seen the entire show now though, I can pinpoint the exact moment when, in my opinion, it all started to go wrong: episode 13, when......


No offense, but upon re-watching SEED Destiny, I have to say that the first hint that it would all turn to custard came in episode one.

Episode One, 14m 31s

Episode One, 14m 32s

As you can see, this was a series that had identity issues right from the start. Just as the Strike was passed off as the Impulse later on, the Chaos was passed off as the Freedom. Yeah, right. Which animator had that idea?

[Post Script: As a newcomer to Photobucket, I have not vested much faith that those links are correct. They had better be, that is all I can say.]
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Westlo



Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 1684
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:58 am Reply with quote
zaphdash wrote:
It's funny that vtnwesley actually gave up on Destiny after only five episodes; the first seven or so episodes were by far the strongest part of the entire show, and, in my opinion, perhaps the best first seven episodes of any Gundam series as it really drops you right into the middle of the action and gets a seemingly interesting plot (oh, how looks can be deceiving) underway much more quickly than in most other Gundam shows. Unfortunately, it fails to sustain that level of quality for the rest of the show. It actually suffered from the same big problem as the most recent season of 24 -- if you shoot your wad at the very beginning, where is the show supposed to go from there?


Hahaha I agree completely with you on both Destiny and the 6th season of 24. Both of these started off so great and just ended up being horrible.
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IchigoK90



Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1634
Location: Scarborough, Ontario
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:49 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
zaphdash wrote:
Having seen the entire show now though, I can pinpoint the exact moment when, in my opinion, it all started to go wrong: episode 13, when......


No offense, but upon re-watching SEED Destiny, I have to say that the first hint that it would all turn to custard came in episode one.

Episode One, 14m 31s

Episode One, 14m 32s


You thought those acronyms were bad? Oh boy once I learned the acronyms for Gouf and Zaku, that was just plain retarded.

Gouf stood for:

G - Guardian
O - Of
U - Unity
F - Forerunner

Zaku stood for:

Z - Zodiac
A - Alliance
K - Keeper of
U - Unity

Now those were horrible. But the first sign of the series being a dud to me was the inclusion of Zakus and Goufs. I mean the Ginn was bad enough since it was (at the time) the closest non-U.C mobile suit that looked like the Zaku.

Also I never really liked the Bucue mobile suit (I consider it more of a mobile armour than a suit, but it can't be considered a mobile armour due to its size comparison to the Mobius and Mobius Zero). I never really liked the concept of it running on a quadruped.

That aside many other mobile suits in SEED Destiny came off as really uninspiring designs. The Destroy Gundam (both in armament and looks) to me was a cross between the Big Zam from Mobile Suit Gundam and the Psycho Gundam from Zeta Gundam. The Babi Mobile suit came off as a hybrid between the Dinn, the Calamity Gundam and the Gyan from Mobile Suit Gundam. The ASH looked like a cross between the Z'Gok E, Hygogg and Kapool. The Legend abd Impulse Gundams by far were some of the worst Mobile Suits I ever concieved. Its like no thought went into their development. The impulse is basically the Strike with a core block system, the only difference is that 2 of the "wizard" packs packed twice the amount of weapons the strike packs had and finally the Legend is just a grayer version of Providence.

And don't even get me started on Earth Alliance and Orb Union Mobile suits.
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Boomerang Flash



Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 1021
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:30 pm Reply with quote
IchigoK90 wrote:
dtm42 wrote:
No offense, but upon re-watching SEED Destiny, I have to say that the first hint that it would all turn to custard came in episode one.

Episode One, 14m 31s

Episode One, 14m 32s


You thought those acronyms were bad? Oh boy once I learned the acronyms for Gouf and Zaku, that was just plain retarded.

You're faulting a Japanese animation for using ridiculous English? How many anime that contains English text in the pictures have you watched, and have you ever seen any Japanese merchandise that has English written on them?

You missed the problem in dtm43's pictures. The problem is that the text changed between when they were lit and unlit.
Black text: "Generation Unsubdued Nuclear Drive Assault Module"
Red text: "Generation Unrestricted Network Drive Assault Module"
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:43 pm Reply with quote
Boomerang Flash wrote:
IchigoK90 wrote:
dtm42 wrote:
No offense, but upon re-watching SEED Destiny, I have to say that the first hint that it would all turn to custard came in episode one.

Episode One, 14m 31s

Episode One, 14m 32s


You thought those acronyms were bad? Oh boy once I learned the acronyms for Gouf and Zaku, that was just plain retarded.

You're faulting a Japanese animation for using ridiculous English? How many anime that contains English text in the pictures have you watched, and have you ever seen any Japanese merchandise that has English written on them?

You missed the problem in dtm43's pictures. The problem is that the text changed between when they were lit and unlit.
Black text: "Generation Unsubdued Nuclear Drive Assault Module"
Red text: "Generation Unrestricted Network Drive Assault Module"


Thank you. I had honestly thought the difference would not be overly hard to spot, but I appreciate you pointing it out.

The first seven episodes of SEED Destiny are among my favourite Gundam episodes period. I must have watched that episode more than fifteen times, and yet only recently spotted the fairly obvious mistake.

It is horrible, isn't it. That they were partially re-using animation since episode one.

Note: In both pictures the "U" stands for Unrestricted. Unsubdued is not shown.
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Comartemis



Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 28
Location: Chicago Illinois
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:52 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I never really liked the concept of it running on a quadruped.

Well considering that it first showed up being used in desert warfare it makes sense that it would require a more stable design to distribute its' weight across unstable terrain. Look at how much trouble Kira had for the first few minutes of those fights. I'm no engineer, but a quadruped setup just makes more sense to me when used in these situations, though I'll grant that it probably shouldn't have shown up in situations where that design wouldn't grant it an edge over bipedal designs.
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imperative7



Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 39
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:55 pm Reply with quote
I don't really get the hatred although I understand some of the criticisms that some level at the show. I am a huge fan of Seed and Seed Destiny and can't ever get enough of both shows. I already miss the fact that Seed Destiny is over here in the US and I won't be able to buy more Seed until the final plus and the eventually released movies. Overall, I really loved the story and it all makes sense if you keep in mind that Durandal from the beginning (if you pay attention) is so meticulous with his words and everything that he said was totally measured. I didn't like him from the beginning because of this and I had a bad feeling about him.

It was also necessary to introduce Shinn, the Impulse, the Minerva and its crew right away and if you look back at the entire series, Durandal plays the Minerva like a master chess player (there is even scenes of him playing chess) and puts the ship into the position as the rival for the Archangel. Durandal was what the master of the "human game of chess" as it was said on old-school wrestling shows. He really is able to manipulate his forces and the public completely all throughout the show and is far better than it than LOGOS is since Lord Djbril turns out to be an old rich white guy who thinks that he will get everything that he wants just because he is rich and has used his money to amass power over some of the Earth Forces. We can see this in real life when rich people do stupid things or get caught in a criminal act and think that they can get away with just because they are wealthy.

It was necessary to introduce Shinn and re-introduce Athrun and Cagalli first since Shinn was the new main character to join Kira and Athrun and Athrun and Cagalli had more in them in terms of character development. Once the conflict got going, it made sense that Athrun would return to ZAFT since Durandal set things up for this to happen so perfectly with Yzak and Dearka being let back into ZAFT and Durandall showing that he respected Athrun. Also, we have to also remember that Athrun is a soldier by nature and is a person who has followed that life for so long that it is easy for him to fall back into it. He also hoped that by going back that he would be able to keep anyone he cares about from going back to the field. This of course fails in a huge way.

Cagalli, on the other hand, really fell into a position that made total sense. She is 18 years old and shouldn't really be expected to run an entire country by herself. She was all alone against the ministers who gave her father such a hard time in Seed and were against people who were far more experienced with large scale politics such as the Seirans and Durandal. It is far easier to be an indendent person who is just fighting someone or something rather than have to have the huge responsibility of actually ruling an entire country. Kira said it himself when he said that he and the others left her alone for far too long and they now had to fix their mistakes.

And Kira and Lacus don't really fall into the "always right" catagory in the series. Kira stays away for far too long and Lacus is so focused on trying to nuture Kira when it was a mistake to do so that Durandal was able to set things up with his 'Lacus' and the Minerva. Lacus also stayed away from public life for so long that when she finally returns all she does is create confusion. And Kira becomes predictable in how he fights and the Minerva takes advantage of this when they first go up against him. He has to rededicate himself at the end of the series to do what he has to do.

As for Shinn, we could see from the beginning that he was filled with rage and anger and was having a big problem dealing with his grief over loosing his family during the last war. As he got better as a pilot and got more and more praise, he let it all go to his head and he became easier to manipulate. Rey was the only one who could reach Shinn when he was angry and this gave him the ability to nudge Shinn in the direction that he and Durandal wanted him to go. Also, Athrun has a hard time reaching Shinn since he, like Shinn, is not adapt socially and Rey is always there telling Shinn what he wants to hear. Why would a person listen to someone who is leveling criticism against him when he could listen to the person who always tells him what he wants to hear? Athrun didn't stand a chance against Rey here. Shinn is in many ways what Flay was in Seed in terms of his emotional state and her confusion over what was happening around him compared to her situation in Seed.

And we have to remember that Durandal and Rey aren't evil per se. They are both people who have a strong sense of what they want the world to become and are driven to make that happen. They are idealogues who only see their own point of view and can't or won't try to reach a compromise with anyone. All idealogues see their point of view as the right one and won't bend in any way. This doesn't make them evil. Lord Djibril on the other hand is evil and filled with greed and hatred for all Coordinators. He is a true bigot, but, since he has so much power within the Earth Forces, it is easy for him to get his way.

There are things that I would change though in order to smooth out the story to get it just right as Seed was. First, fewer flashback episodes. There were too many of them and the only ones that were necessary were Shinn's backstory and Durandal's connection to Le Creuset, Gladys, Rey, and the Ultimate Coordinator project (Of course this would brought up red flags for me since I hate, hate, hate Le Creuset with a passion because I was so mad when he killed Flay at the end of Seed since she was one of my favorite characters from Seed). I would have also created a stronger link to the project early on since it has such a strong connection to Kira and we should have seen the connections back to the Destiny Plan. I would keep Meer's backstory but kept it short since she deserved to have the time for her history. Also, I would have had Yzak and Dearka in a more meaningful position so that their turn at the end would have been organic and more meaningful. And finally, I would have had some more humor in the dialogue for our heroes from the Archangel. I mean, they just survive some of the most insane battles possible and it all should be a little bit ironic to them at this point.

But, in the end, these are small quibbles for me since I am a huge fan of both Seed and Seed Destiny. I also loved all of the mobile suits in both shows (including the BuCues) and wish that Bandai brought more of the toys to the states. I think that the biggest source of hatred for both shows comes from the old school Gundam fans who have been watching Gundam since the original and Zeta. There are quite a few old school fans who only see the UC Gundam as the correct versions while they dismiss newer incarnations. Personally UC Gundam mostly puts me to sleep and is far too old for it to make any connection to me (with the exception of the 8th MS Team OVA series). Seed and Seed Destiny just work for me and these shows are Gundam for me. There are so many incarnations of Gundam that we all should be able to find the the version or incarnation that most works for us personally. I am looking forward to seeing Gundam 00 since it will be truly different from the 2 Seed shows and it's being directed by the same director who did Fullmetal Alchemist (which I also love) and I can't wait for the new Seed movie that is in the works.

In the end, Gundam has been around so long that, like Star Trek and Star Wars, there will always be nitpicking from fans who like one version or style over another and I am sure that there are just as many fans who think that UC is their Gundam compared to the newer shows. But, for me, I am definitely a member of Generation CE (I saw this motto on some souveniers at a convention I went to last year and I love it since it fits me to a tee). Sorry for the long rant, but, I am just a fan, like the rest of us, who is just sticking up for shows that he truly loves.
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Comartemis



Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 28
Location: Chicago Illinois
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:58 pm Reply with quote
Gotta agree with imperative on this. I've seen the arguments that have been bandied back and forth about how so and so is unoriginal or this is lame or that's a cliche, or this person isn't developed and DEATH TO JESUS YAMATO and blah blah blah, and I don't understand where any of you are coming from.

SEED and Destiny were my introduction to the Gundam franchise because I missed most of Wing and only saw Endless Waltz once or twice when I was little. So maybe it's just that I'm not as jaded as the rest of you, or maybe I'm just rating my anime based on (Hey, here's a novel concept!) how much I liked it instead of how original the plot was or whatever.

Heck, the only thing I really didn't like about Destiny was Shinn.

Shinn Asuka wrote:
"Waaah! I lost my whole family because of a random explosion, so I'm gonna grow up into an angsty emo-boy and blame all my problems on a convenient scapegoat like the ORB royal family!"

Cry me a river, kid. Then build a bridge and get over it. I got no sympathy for the dark angst-ridden hero with the bad attitude, especially not after Uchiha Sasuke. Heck, you may as well give Shinn the Sharingan as far as I care, they both suck as characters and Shinn deserved every last bit of Athrun's beatdown, especially after he damn near killed Luna, who was one of my favorite characters in the whole series.
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IchigoK90



Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1634
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:05 pm Reply with quote
Comartemis wrote:
Gotta agree with imperative on this. I've seen the arguments that have been bandied back and forth about how so and so is unoriginal or this is lame or that's a cliche, or this person isn't developed and DEATH TO JESUS YAMATO and blah blah blah, and I don't understand where any of you are coming from.

SEED and Destiny were my introduction to the Gundam franchise because I missed most of Wing and only saw Endless Waltz once or twice when I was little. So maybe it's just that I'm not as jaded as the rest of you, or maybe I'm just rating my anime based on (Hey, here's a novel concept!) how much I liked it instead of how original the plot was or whatever.


You know you just answered your own questions. For myself its because it was unoriginal, because characters lacked little if any development and because it follows too many past Gundam cliches instead of creating new situations that I didn't like it.
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