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Last edited by prime_pm on Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

Both languages were good. But to me, Doug Stone made Golden Boy back then. I remember him coming to a panel at Otakon one year; he told everyone about how he met the original creator, and apparently he saw Doug's version too. Because his reply was "I created you!" Heh. Good stuff.

Too bad about the new license. The show was a staple in ADVFilms for years, aside from Eva of course. But, hey, it was a short series anyway, only six episodes; I guess it makes sense in some small way. I wish someone license the manga though.

Last edited by Zac on Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

Porcupine wrote:

If you can honestly say "yes" to that then you might have a LITTLE evidence that I'm wrong. If MOST of the people you know are like that, then I'm clearly wrong.

But I'm guessing you don't even know a single person like that.

Uh well gee given that I've been working in the anime magazine business for oh let's say 8 years now as a freelancer and then an associate editor and now a managing editor, I can probably say I know a lot more about magazine advertising than you do. Your criteria for ad effectiveness doesn't even make sense on a basic level.

What you're saying is "I don't buy anime magazines and therefore do not pay attention to the ads and neither do any of the people in my social circle so that means NOBODY does, also my totally circumstantial evidence based on zero research or experience is flawless proof."

musashi1600 wrote:

The most I've seen advertising do is alert people that a given title exists, and may warrant further inquiry.

congratulations, you've figured out one of the primary reasons advertising exists and is largely considered to work!

Lots of people buy anime magazines. Hundreds of thousands of people buy anime magazines. How do I know that? I know what their circulation numbers are. The overall effectiveness of print advertising has been called into question over the years as many publishers migrate online, but it's never been ruled that print ads are completely worthless and nobody pays attention to them, because saying so would be ridiculous. Print ads are valuable consumer impressions just like billboards or TV commercials or any other kind of advertising. Yeesh.

Porcupine wrote:

Zac wrote:

You're basing this on what, the fact that you personally don't read magazines?

I am just stating my opinion. Do you even know a single person who fit all my criteria above? I will re-state them for you.

1) has NEVER downloaded any anime fansub before
2) buys at least two or three anime titles each month, but not more than ten (this would count as "buying everything" in which case advertising is not relevant to such people)
3) buys all the anime magazines that come out

If you can honestly say "yes" to that then you might have a LITTLE evidence that I'm wrong. If MOST of the people you know are like that, then I'm clearly wrong.

But I'm guessing you don't even know a single person like that.

Jumping into the ongoing discussion:

Why only people who have "never downloaded any anime fansub before" can be affected by those ads--as opposed to people who once downloaded, but no longer do, or even people who currently download only a handful of titles? Why only people who buy "all the magazines"? People don't have to buy all of the magazines to be affected by the ads. The criteria need not be this specific and self-limiting. (In any case, the original message didn't say people who "NEVER" downloaded "before" or people who bought "all the magazines.")

Zac wrote:

What you're saying is "I don't buy anime magazines and therefore do not pay attention to the ads and neither do any of the people in my social circle so that means NOBODY does, also my totally circumstantial evidence based on zero research or experience is flawless proof."

Regardless of your job, if you can't read and understand what other people write then what you say will make no sense. I did NOT say those things. Please re-read what I have stated, make sure you check the wording carefully, and make sure you understand the argument I am presenting, if you wish to respond intelligently to me.

Quote:

Lots of people buy anime magazines. Hundreds of thousands of people buy anime magazines....it's never been ruled that print ads are completely worthless and nobody pays attention to them

"Lots" may depend on your definition of lots. What percentage of anime buyers buy those magazines? Give us those figures if you want us to believe it is "lots". A raw figure of the amount of magazines sold is not informative.

Furthermore, even a figure showing the percentage of anime buyers that buy the anime magazines is not very useful. Why? It's as I explained earlier. People who buy those magazines who also keep in-touch with the anime world through other means, such as online internet discussion, talking with other fans, and/or downloading fansubs....DON'T count. They buy the mags sure, but they need not rely on the magazine advertisements when making their buying decisions.

It's never been ruled that the print ads are worthless but I don't see any studies showing that they are useful either, in the anime world. Note that general studies on the usefuless of printed ads are not acceptable in this case. The general market for other products is very different than the anime industry, which is heavily influenced (for better or for worse) by the common Internet practice of downloading fansubs.

testorschoice wrote:

Why only people who have "never downloaded any anime fansub before" can be affected by those ads--as opposed to people who once downloaded, but no longer do, or even people who currently download only a handful of titles? Why only people who buy "all the magazines"? People don't have to buy all of the magazines to be affected by the ads. The criteria need not be this specific and self-limiting. (In any case, the original message didn't say people who "NEVER" downloaded "before" or people who bought "all the magazines.")

I agree with you. The latest criteria were too limiting. I just wanted to get across the point to Zac because he doesn't seem to read what I write carefully and doesn't seem to understand the points I am trying to make. I don't mind if he says I am wrong, but he should try to understand what I am saying and address the points I have made.

My original criteria is the better one. As long as you hardly download anything (VERY little though, even 3 episodes a year might be too much for me) and buy a reasonable quantity of magazines, that's fine. I just don't want to get into an argument over how much is too much, so I stated things extra-bluntly.

Here the thing it may be that Geneon cost is cheaper for them to farm it out, I can tell you this I have seen it before. I worked for Suncoast a few years ago and It was always expenisive to get Geneon items from them. I am happy right now, I am opening a local rental/anime store and I will tell you what Geneon Item wholesale are alot more then ADV, Funi, and MediaBlasters. I think this is a good move and they can get their titles out to more people thru what ADV has in term of all the Anime Mags, Anime Network and we can get cheaper dvds. Geneon has to get the main office permission for what and how to Market so let's give to someone for xxxx amount of dollars and that to them makes their profit go up less they have to do themselves and more money in the long run.
As in term of Titles changing hand that will happen due to a show is licenced for so many years and if some is willing to pay more that will happen. In case of both Slayer (which CPM did not feel like pay the cost) And maybe the same with Bandai with Love Hina(which was a bad mistake on their part). But all the companies may feel that having a new title might bring in more for them then a older title.

Well, the first shoe has finally dropped, and it's Geneon.

Can't say I'm surprised... Geneon was one of the minor players and they just didn't look like they were going to be able to hang with The Big Three, so (at least for now) they basically attach themselves at the hip to ADV and go from there.

First step to a merger -- hell, probably a lot more than a first step...

But this has been coming for a long time. Now, will Pioneer be able to hold in? RIght Stuff Entertainment???

Wow this is really big news, and frankly one that made my head spin a little. It could mean so many things, in many different ways that I don't want to speculate.

One thing I can say though, and I don't know how big Geneon's sales, marketing, and distribution staff is, but I know they are not happy campers right now.

Zac wrote:

As a likely futile attempt to curb all the baseless speculation and rumormongering that will likely result in this thread, keep in mind that this story is effectively a leak; official details will likely come next week from either company.

I will definitely be interested in the respective responses. But especially the response from Geneon.

musashi1600 wrote:

What about conflict-of-interest issues regarding ADV having to promote their own titles and Geneon's? That's what worries me the most.

You realize that Geneon will be paying ADV to market their stuff right?

Zac wrote:

Porcupine wrote:

In the whole world there are probably almost 0 people who are heavily affected by those ads but again that's just my opinion.

You're basing this on what, the fact that you personally don't read magazines?

Does the sun revolve around you as well, or just the earth?

That's a loaded question. You know the sun revolves around me. :D

musashi1600 wrote:

HitokiriShadow wrote:

That's nothing new. Geneon was distributing Bandai Visual's titles at first, and there have been similar things between other companies. I believe Geneon used to distribute for Bandai Entertainment or something as well.

So you're saying Geneon handing over their marketing/distribution apparatus to ADV is neither unusual nor harmful to itself? What about conflict-of-interest issues regarding ADV having to promote their own titles and Geneon's? That's what worries me the most.

It's not a zero sum game though. They only directly compete to get the licenses. It's far more complicated after that and since one company's product isn't a substitute for the other.

Porcupine wrote:

HitokiriShadow wrote:

Note that I'm talking about magazine ads, where average fans are likely to see them...

This is just my opinion but I think magazine ads are near-worthless anyway. I don't think they have much to do with how well a title sells. Who buys those anime magazines anyway? I sure don't.

Some people buy them, sure. But people who buy those magazines and ALSO keep up-to-date by downloading fansubs, checking online sites, etc....don't count. Why? Because they will have sufficient "advertisement" through their own means (downloading fansubs, etc).

It's only people who buy a lot of those magazines, who DON'T download ANY anime...but yet buy a lot of anime, but NOT every single title that comes out (there are some people like this too)...that are affected by these ads. Now tell me, do you know a single such person? I bet not. Certainly, it's not the "average fan" who fits that description.

I could be wrong, but the only regular poster on this entire board who never downloads anime but buys a reasonable amount of anime is probably me, and I never read those mags...

I'd read them if they were free, though. But I'd rather use my money to buy another title and take my chances than buy one of those anime mags, which to me are a little too geeky.

How many people post at ANN or similar places on a daily basis? Maybe 70-100 combined. I assure that magazines reach far more people. Believe it or not, not all anime fans check the internet regularly for anime news. That's why Newtype USA and Anime Insider aren't filing for bankruptcy. For many people, that is their primary source of anime information. And for them, ads are important. Those types of fans are far more numerous than the 'hardcore' fans who check the internet daily for news and they are the ones that really matter for success.

And your the only one that buys a 'reasonable amount' of anime? How self absorbed can you be?

Porcupine wrote:

Viga_of_stars wrote:

mean? ADV will just put commercials and ads of geneon titles in Newtype and on Anime Network?

I've never bought a Newtype USA mag before but I know that it is clearly associated with ADVision. However, are you saying that Newtype USA only has ADVision titles in it? I don't think that's true because there have been covers of Haruhi, Gun x Sword, Hack//Sign, etc in the past. But again, I've never looked inside so I'm not sure. And I dunno if Newtype USA is "biased" towards ADVision titles inside or not. Maybe a Newtype USA reader can enlighten me?

NewType USA has ads, reviews, and articles for all companies, not just their own.

Porcupine wrote:

Some of the Geneon trailers have been really good, such as the Fate/Stay Night trailer, which I think is the same footage as on the Fate/Stay Night Japanese R1 curtain-raiser DVD...which is really valuable stuff seeing as it mostly consists of high-quality footage that was never used in the actual Fate/Stay Night series. The only bad things about that Geneon trailer were: 1) it is in Japanese and not translated in any way 2) it's letterboxed instead of anamorphic widescreen

The F/SN is further example of Geneon's laziness when it comes to previews. They just used the Curtain Raiser trailer from Japan and didn't even bother subtitling it so people could understand anything.

Porcupine wrote:

Zac wrote:

You're basing this on what, the fact that you personally don't read magazines?

I am just stating my opinion. Do you even know a single person who fit all my criteria above? I will re-state them for you.

1) has NEVER downloaded any anime fansub before
2) buys at least two or three anime titles each month, but not more than ten (this would count as "buying everything" in which case advertising is not relevant to such people)
3) buys all the anime magazines that come out

If you can honestly say "yes" to that then you might have a LITTLE evidence that I'm wrong. If MOST of the people you know are like that, then I'm clearly wrong.

But I'm guessing you don't even know a single person like that.

Why does someone have to be all of those things to matter? How on earth is this relevant? Obviously, fansub viewers don't really need ads too much. But guess what? There's a hell of a lot of people buying anime DVDs that don't watch fansubs, don't use the internet to find out all their anime information, and use magazines quite a bit. And they make up the majority of the purchasing power. Why do you think that someone like yourself represents the majority by any stretch of the imagination?

starcade wrote:

Well, the first shoe has finally dropped, and it's Geneon.

Can't say I'm surprised... Geneon was one of the minor players and they just didn't look like they were going to be able to hang with The Big Three, so (at least for now) they basically attach themselves at the hip to ADV and go from there.

Geneon is "minor"? I've never understood this "big three". It's the "big four": ADV, Funi, Geneon, and Bandai Ent. All of them are the big boys in the industry. Though Bandai seems to be less active these days.

Starcade wrote:

But this has been coming for a long time. Now, will Pioneer be able to hold in? RIght Stuff Entertainment???

Geneon IS Pioneer. Pioneer changed their name to Geneon a few years ago.

Last edited by musashi1600 on Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Dargonxtc wrote:

musashi1600 wrote:

What about conflict-of-interest issues regarding ADV having to promote their own titles and Geneon's? That's what worries me the most.

You realize that Geneon will be paying ADV to market their stuff right?

Yes, but that wouldn't stop an unscrupulous ADV employee from trying to five their own titles an advantage over Geneon's out on the market, regardless of how much Geneon is paying them. Granted, Geneon would then be able to sue ADV (probably for breach-of-contract), but nothing in the courts is guaranteed.

HitokiriShadow wrote:

musashi1600 wrote:

HitokiriShadow wrote:

That's nothing new. Geneon was distributing Bandai Visual's titles at first, and there have been similar things between other companies. I believe Geneon used to distribute for Bandai Entertainment or something as well.

So you're saying Geneon handing over their marketing/distribution apparatus to ADV is neither unusual nor harmful to itself? What about conflict-of-interest issues regarding ADV having to promote their own titles and Geneon's? That's what worries me the most.

It's not a zero sum game though. They only directly compete to get the licenses. It's far more complicated after that and since one company's product isn't a substitute for the other.

My point is that ADV and Geneon are still competitors. Say for example, each company licenses a similar title (such as Genshiken and Welcome to the NHK, for the sake of arguement.) In that case, both companies would be competing more directly, as both titles would appeal to similar audiences, and going head-to-head for sales.

I wouldn't be too worried about that. I doubt employees will care much about which company does better as long as they are getting paid. It's not an inherent conflict of interest, so I see no reason to be concerned.

I wonder how this will affect the marketing for Hellsing Ultimate? I guess Geneon still handles the dub, but does ADV have a say in the dvd case design?

On a slightly related note, someone told me he's seen comercials for Hellsing Ultimate on Fuse (during their anime block). Maybe this will mean more of those? Heck, it's interesting enough to attract even non-fans if you ask me, as long as it's done right.

ultrapostman wrote:

I wonder how this will affect the marketing for Hellsing Ultimate? I guess Geneon still handles the dub, but does ADV have a say in the dvd case design?

No, ADV wouldn't have anything to do with the packaging. That's part of production, which would still be handled by Geneon.

HitokiriShadow wrote:

I wouldn't be too worried about that. I doubt employees will care much about which company does better as long as they are getting paid. It's not an inherent conflict of interest, so I see no reason to be concerned.

Call me paranoid. >_>

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