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Hey, Answerman: Chick Habit


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Xyex



Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 34
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:06 pm Reply with quote
Jerseymilk wrote:
Eos wrote:
CatzCradle wrote:
Quote:
The second questioner wrote:
also why do i see so many fat girls wearing pink wigs at conventions, why is that so popular with the fat girls i don't get it.

Well, I think that's an American phenomenon only, as seen with my own eyes as well as this article.


As much as I think it's hilarious, I also can't help but say it's a bit biased since they are Japanese people cosplaying Japanese characters.

It's "bias" because this Maddox-wannabe compares pictures of pro Japanese cosplayers with rookie and overweight American cosplayers to conclude that all "Americans Shouldn't Cosplay." I've noticed American cosplayers in general tend to dress out simply for fun and don't take themselves as seriously (of course, there are exceptions, *see /cgl...).


Along with the fact that a large portion of Asian cosplayers photoshop their pictures to the point that they don't even look like real people anymore, the majority of those photos included. That "infamous" article and it's author are well known in the cosplay community as a laughingstock for the exact reasons Zac stated. I'm quite shocked that Dormcat would that ignorant as to actually link and purport such fodder, since he always struck me as a little more intelligent than that. Ah well...

And about the point of Japanese people having an advantage with cosplaying because they're Japanese.....the majority of anime characters have the appearance of Caucasians, so I fail to see how one comes to that conclusion. Confused


Yeah, I think 95% of asian cosplay pictures go through about 10 hours of photoshoping before they're even put on-line. Oh, and that Tifa image in the article? The face looks a bit off compared to the rest of the image because it was heavily photoshopped to the point of being obviously shopped. And let's not forget she was a model hired by Square to wear a costume created by Square to promote the Advent Children movie. Rolling Eyes
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:13 pm Reply with quote
I preferred Wedding Peach to Sailor Moon since the girls seemed less...annoying stereotypes? I mean Sailor Moon is (from the few eps I watched) jealous of her own daughter & a ditz.
I didn't care for SuperGals as much as my teen did because of the "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" being a Gal is more important than school message (blow off school work! You're only young once!)

Maybe part of the problem is a lot of these titles are made by guys, so they're making what they think is a strong female, but it's actually a fantasy (Buffy, Storm). I remember in Newtype USA the director of InuYasha commented he softened Kikyo because, as a man, he didn't like to see that type of woman, but Rumiko Takahashi, being a woman, could write that type of woman because she knows her own gender.

Kusanagi from GitS may be shapely, but she's done it herself--she could have a different shell, but chooses this one for the effect which in itself can be a very strong stand. I say she's strong.

Clamp has some strong gals--Sakura is pretty strong. That witch in XXXHolic is wicked evil but it's because she can be--she has the power to manipulate others so she gets to be as eccentric as she wants to be. Of course that brings up the other stereotype of strong woman as evil/selfish

I hate her, but I suppose Athena is strong considering what she's willing to do in the Hades Chapter, but she is more of a support character since Saint Seiya is more about the pretty boys. (Athena, like Miaka & Yui in Fushigi Yugi let all those bishies die for them. Evil)

Anna in Shaman King was also pretty strong to the point of being an evil force in the lives of the men around her--the whole "Strong women are bitches" Because they know what they want & it's not what you want?

It's really no different from what we have for American fare. We get a few true strong women in mass-market titles, but a lot of that strong chick stuff is in the "chick flick" genre. Japan's social structure doesn't seem to encourage the demand for a lot of frontier women kicking over the table, grabbing a gun & shooting it out elbow-to-elbow with the guys. Women still seem less equal there than in the US (& we're by no means equal here. Glass ceiling?)

Yeah, I second the puppy looks like a doxie. They're exceptionally loyal dogs & very strong & tough. (I've heard of them attacking dogs much bigger-shepards, etc, becasue they are protecting their masters & when I had a doxie & went to the annual picnic in town leashes were mandatory & not those chains that can be let out. The owners were expected to keep a tight leash on their dogs because of their nature)

I don't mind what Bandai Visual is doing. It really seems that those of us who want the titles are buying them & those who are complaining seem to be the type who wouildn't buy them anyway.
The price for a Naruto box lists at $50. Why is the same company (Viz) charging more ($90) for Bleach?
Because they can. Ooo, they're giving us a "premium" box. Yeah. You're ripping me off because if I want Bleach, I'll pay it or I can do without, so I pay it & grumble.
The Demon Prince Enma came with a little book & cast interviews. The Super Robot Wars I've ordered indicates it's a 2-disc set with lots of extras
I do think they're blowing it by not calling them "Special Edition" or "Deluxe" or something. Look at Disney "For a limited time only" Then BV could say, hey, it's a Special Edition & we're just not doing a regular edition


If no one mentioned fansubs, why are people insisting on bringing them up? Although the final posts on the last thread did actually see most of the posters sort of coming down to a similar point of view, but keeping to their own side of the argument. Don't talk about the psycho killer in the closet when he's sleeping. You might wake him & then we have to deal with him again, huh?
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Murasakisuishou



Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 1469
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:35 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:

Kusanagi from GitS may be shapely, but she's done it herself--she could have a different shell, but chooses this one for the effect which in itself can be a very strong stand. I say she's strong.


An EXCELLENT point. One of the reasons I usually bring up the Major as an example of a strong female character is that it's not like she has no control over her appearance; she's extremely comfortable with who and what she is and chose her body to reflect that. Sure, you could say at root it's fanservicey, but still, she's one heck of a strong and beautiful woman.

While I'm on the subject of GitS (SAC or otherwise), I feel that Prime Minister Kayabuki from 2nd GIG deserves a mention. How many other anime taking place in Japan actually feature women as central political figures? At first she seemed a bit annoying, but as she struggled to assert her power and individuality over the course of the storyline I was rather impressed.
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Tyrenol



Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 398
Location: Northern California
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:02 pm Reply with quote
HitokiriShadow wrote:
No, the most recent good black character I'm aware of is Dutch from Black Lagoon.


I meant black characters that aren't stereotypes. (Nobody here watched "Victory Gundam" at all?)

Murasakisuishou wrote:
And here I go again, about to get annoyed because someone is suggesting that more black people should be in anime for the sake of it. Anime is from Japan. There are very few black (or must I say 'African American'?) people in Japan. If you want more people with dark skin go watch something from country where there are more of them. But insinuating that the Japanese should just start throwing black people into anime because 'they're under-represented' is just silly.


I'm scratching my head here. Why did Gonzo went ahead and did "Afro Samurai?"

I know it's hard. Right now 50 Cent (of all people) is running around thinking he's the best role model around (which he isn't). And it's hard to create a good "dark-skinned" character without said character looking like a racial slur in human form.

It's all gumption, though. We placed people on the Moon. And women have became prime ministers and such. The future's behind that glass wall; we just need to break through it.
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Murasakisuishou



Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 1469
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:29 pm Reply with quote
Tyrenol wrote:

Murasakisuishou wrote:
And here I go again, about to get annoyed because someone is suggesting that more black people should be in anime for the sake of it. Anime is from Japan. There are very few black (or must I say 'African American'?) people in Japan. If you want more people with dark skin go watch something from country where there are more of them. But insinuating that the Japanese should just start throwing black people into anime because 'they're under-represented' is just silly.


I'm scratching my head here. Why did Gonzo went ahead and did "Afro Samurai?"

I know it's hard. Right now 50 Cent (of all people) is running around thinking he's the best role model around (which he isn't). And it's hard to create a good "dark-skinned" character without said character looking like a racial slur in human form.

It's all gumption, though. We placed people on the Moon. And women have became prime ministers and such. The future's behind that glass wall; we just need to break through it.


I'm not saying that all black characters end up being racial slurs, far from it. Nor am I saying that there should never be black characters in anime. But statements like "there should be more black people in anime just so they get representation" bother me, because why should a creator go against his instincts just to fill out a minority group? If the creator of a series honestly feels like a character should have dark skin, well, all right, whatever. I'm neither for nor against it. However, when a character is given dark skin just because "there aren't enough black people in anime", that irritates me. It's like how some colleges in the U.S. admit a certain number of African American, Asian, and Hispanic students just to keep their 'minority percentages' straight. A good character is a good character no matter what color their skin is.

My apologies to anyone who might have thought I was being racist.
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MokonaModoki



Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 437
Location: Austin, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:48 pm Reply with quote
Murasakisuishou wrote:
My apologies to anyone who might have thought I was being racist.


Interestingly enough, I didn't think you were being racist until you posted this, but it sure sounds like it now. Prior to this post I just thought you were being rather thin-skinned in expressing an unwarranted degree of annoyance. Tyrenol just said he wished there were more good black characters in anime, which seems like a perfectly reasonable wish for someone who feels it. It's not like he was making a militant call to action to change anime to fit his world view, which is what you sound like you are responding to.

Quote:
However, when a character is given dark skin just because "there aren't enough black people in anime", that irritates me.

Now I'm genuinely curious... what anime are you watching that you perceive this as a problem for you? How are you distinguishing it from:
Quote:
If the creator of a series honestly feels like a character should have dark skin, well, all right, whatever.
?
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chicogrande



Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 190
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:58 pm Reply with quote
HitokiriShadow wrote:
Tyrenol wrote:
I, for one, wish that there are more black (African-American) people represented in anime.

Or are the last "good" "black" anime characters Dearka Elsman and Loran Cehack from Gundams SEED and Turn-A respectively?


No, the most recent good black character I'm aware of is Dutch from Black Lagoon.



Now, I wish there were more Puerto Rican characters in Anime.

Ok, who else needs ethnic representation in some other country's media to make them feel better. Rolling Eyes
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Murasakisuishou



Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 1469
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:00 pm Reply with quote
MokonaModoki wrote:
Murasakisuishou wrote:
My apologies to anyone who might have thought I was being racist.


Interestingly enough, I didn't think you were being racist until you posted this, but it sure sounds like it now. Prior to this post I just thought you were being rather thin-skinned in expressing an unwarranted degree of annoyance. Tyrenol just said he wished there were more good black characters in anime, which seems like a perfectly reasonable wish for someone who feels it. It's not like he was making a militant call to action to change anime to fit his world view, which is what you sound like you are responding to.

Once again, I'm sorry if it came off that way; I've just seen this issue come up before in other places (and in real life discussions), and I always find it bothersome because to me it's a facet of the 'victimizing minority groups' mentality that's common in the United States nowadays.

MokonaModoki wrote:

Quote:
However, when a character is given dark skin just because "there aren't enough black people in anime", that irritates me.

Now I'm genuinely curious... what anime are you watching that you perceive this as a problem for you? How are you distinguishing it from:
Quote:
If the creator of a series honestly feels like a character should have dark skin, well, all right, whatever.
?

There's a difference between making someone dark-skinned for the sake of character design, and making someone dark-skinned for the sake of upping the number of dark-skinned characters. I haven't seen any examples in anime, but it seemed to me like that was what was being suggested; creating more black people in anime just so there would be more, not for any actual reason (region of birth, to underline a difference from others i.e. the Ishballans in Fullmetal Alchemist or Anthy from Utena, etc.)
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ArielTsuki



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 178
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:07 pm Reply with quote
MorwenLaicoriel wrote:
Steroid wrote:
Funny. If a male character is shown as a sex object, with the popular charactaristics accentuated, no one complains about objectification. But if it's a female character they do.


Actually, I do. It's part of the reason I dislike yaoi--I feel like fangirls are complaining about girls being sex objects, then turning around and making bishounen into little more than strong, domineering, sweaty ukes and whimpering, eyes-lowered, blushing semes for their little fantasies. I don't think that all yaoi is like that (there's even a few pairings I like), but it feels like a lot of it is, and it gets tiring to me.


No, there's plenty of BL to counter what you feel. Even in BL, the seme ad the ukes usually have a personality and rarely go on the dependent leech that most shoujo lead tend to be. Sex is not the same as objectifying because more often than not sex is used more as a symbol of consumption of a couple.

And it's domeering semes and simpering ukes although there's plenty that do the domeering uke/simpering seme thing too. But that is only one aspect of that and totally disregarding the relationship that is usually the dominant factor for most BL titles.

Tyrenol wrote:
I, for one, wish that there are more black (African-American) people represented in anime.

Or are the last "good" "black" anime characters Dearka Elsman and Loran Cehack from Gundams SEED and Turn-A respectively?


Matthieu, Hilda and maybe Gidget (I'm not sure of Gidget's race) from Eureka 7, Panther from Eyeshield 21. IMO, I don't think Dutch is the stereotypical Black person, he acts like the leader and the one of the more rational ones in the crew.


Last edited by ArielTsuki on Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9902
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:08 pm Reply with quote
Jerseymilk wrote:
Along with the fact that a large portion of Asian cosplayers photoshop their pictures to the point that they don't even look like real people anymore, the majority of those photos included. That "infamous" article and it's author are well known in the cosplay community as a laughingstock for the exact reasons Zac stated. I'm quite shocked that Dormcat would that ignorant as to actually link and purport such fodder, since he always struck me as a little more intelligent than that. Ah well...

People have called me "harsh," "snobbish," "obnoxious," even "d*ckhead," but you are the first one in my almost three decades of life calling me "ignorant." Congratulations.

I was fully aware that article was not a fair comparison: those good pictures of Cloud and Tifa were heavily edited; Yuna's was taken in a professional photo saloon (and of course photoshopped afterwards), and Rei was a hired staff (look at her badge). It was meant to be heavily biased in a hilarious way and not to be taken seriously.

I've personally taken pictures of hundreds of cosplayers. Not all of them are pretty; heck, I have a personal friend (male) who loves to crossplay characters from Key games (e.g. Misuzu from AIR) in public. A brave man? Yes. A good cosplayer? Not quite, and many kagikko who don't accept crossplaying might think his actions as sacrilegious. On the other hand, most pictures I've taken are excellent -- not from my photography skills (which has plenty room for improvement), but from the dedication of those cosplayers, who tried to grasp the essence of the character s/he plays and behave in the same manner. It's more like masquerading -- a term we don't have -- whenever in front of cameras, rather than simply dressed up and act just like one normally would. Therefore, in my opinion those American Yuna and Rikku are not bad at all, while that American Sepiroth was awful, even more so than the bottom picture of Rei Ayanami, for I saw absolutely no dedication. Just for the record, THIS is what I call "dedication."

This reminds me a story told by former PC Gamer editor Michael Wolf, about a group of players of an MMORPG, when the leader of the group (a paladin) asked a high level necromancer to join the team. This action infuriated the priest of the team and he left. Other players thought he was an a-hole ("this is just a game, dude!"), but the player behaved just the way a priest would do if the leader paladin invites a necromancer. Wolf added, "he was not just playing; he was roleplaying" (exact wording might be slightly different, but you get the idea).

Furthermore, cosplaying is similar to choosing jobs: you want to enjoy it, but you also have to make a fair judgment that whether you are suitable for the role or not. A person who excels in his/her career because s/he enjoys the job that is befitting his/her abilities; likewise, a good cosplayer choose character(s) to play not only based on their personal preference, but also the compatibility between the character and him/herself (here is an excellent example, probably the best cosplayer picture I've taken under a non-prepared condition). Failing to do so can be disappointing and, in some extreme cases, catastrophic.

And finally, allow me to quote a paragraph from Denpa Otoko by Tohru Honda (he insists that he has created this pen name way before Fruits Basket): "in women's eyes, if you are handsome, whatever you do is très chic; if you are ugly, you are and will always be a pervert, no matter what you do." His comment is rabid, unfair, sad, and almost pathetic, but that more or less reflects the reality of this society.
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MorwenLaicoriel



Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 1617
Location: Colorado
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:16 pm Reply with quote
ArielTsuki wrote:

No, there's plenty of BL to counter what you feel. Even in BL, the seme ad the ukes usually have a personality and rarely go on the dependent leech that most shoujo lead tend to be. Sex is not the same as objectifying because more often than not sex is used more as a symbol of consumption of a couple.


Actually, I wasn't referring to anime titles with those themes as much as the fangirls that randomly pair two male characters from any series together (often completely disregarding canon, and even writing or drawing characters OOC) because they're both attractive--IE, they're "hot together". So yeah, I recognize that not all anime titles are like that, but it feels like a lot of yaoi/slash fanfiction and fanart is that way.

Sorry about confusing the two terms. ^^;
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Tyrenol



Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 398
Location: Northern California
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:13 pm Reply with quote
ArielTsuki wrote:
Tyrenol wrote:
I, for one, wish that there are more black (African-American) people represented in anime. Or are the last "good" "black" anime characters Dearka Elsman and Loran Cehack from Gundams SEED and Turn-A respectively?


Matthieu, Hilda and maybe Gidget (I'm not sure of Gidget's race) from Eureka 7, Panther from Eyeshield 21. IMO, I don't think Dutch is the stereotypical Black person, he acts like the leader and the one of the more rational ones in the crew.


Thumbs up goes for your comments. But I'm pretty much against Black Lagoon. My anger over the fact that the male lead, Rock, was in a fetal position whining about his life during an all-out gunfight had superceded how rational a cynical war veteran, Dutch, had been.

So yeah. As someone who is African-American-via-ancestrial-slavery; I wish to see, in an anime, a male lead who's of dark skin and not an ill-created representation of what the Japanese think we are (i.e. a gangster rapper).

And Puerto Ricans, Vietnamese, Mexicans, Middle Easterners, et al.

...an Iraqi Konota, Slavic Christian Hiiragi twins, a black Miyuki (with pink hair), a Mexican Shiraishi, Ms. Kuroi with a Southern accent... Rolling Eyes (Even though I believe that Lucky*Star FAILed for being a 30-minute Haruhi commercial...)
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Tank252ca



Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 26
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:28 pm Reply with quote
The original poster requested "something I would want to show my daughter some day", so it sounds like her daughter is quite young at the moment. That kind of rules out shows like Boogie Bop Phantom, and Claymore's Clare isn't quite the kind of role-model I envision my daughter wanting to emulate.

Something more kid friendly would be along the lines of Magic Knight Ray Earth, which has three female lead characters, or Mysterious Thief St Tail. Although the animation looks dated by today's standard, my daughter watched those series 2 or 3 times. Once she became a competent reader I introduced her to the Card Captor Sakura series. The subtitled version keeps the original series order and focuses more on Sakura, although you may find yourself having to explain Tomoyo's infatuation <g>. Sugar: A Little Snow Fairy also has a great female lead character.

When you want to explore personal relationships, I would also recommend Kare Kano (His and Her Circumstances). My daughter and I also enjoyed Fruits Basket immensely, and while Tohru does end up taking over the household chores (her only means of earning her keep) she is a character with great inner strength. One could classify my daughter is a "peacemaker" and she could relate well with Tohru. A recent show with realistic female characters is Dennou Coil (one of our current favorites). And no one has mentioned Twin Spica, which features a girl trying to enter the space program.

A more difficult task for me is finding adult female role models in anime. Even Nausicaä and San from Princess Mononoke still come across as being young. Most of the strong female leads that come to mind seem to be in their teens, like Yawara or Hiromi from Ace Wo Nerae (live action version is very good too).
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Chrno2



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 6171
Location: USA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:31 pm Reply with quote
Great corner this time around. I can definitely understand her feelings about strong female characters that don't fall along the line of being the object of "sex". Of course 'Ghibli' films ooze with strong female characters. And they don't need a 100cm chest to prove it. And again as a parent you want to present a positive image to your child. Hell, don't I feel this way about my niece. But one thing I find is that strong female characters do come in all shapes in sizes. While they may not always be presented in the best way, if you peel away exterior you may find something. Yes, 'Witchblade' falls into this hole and we can thank 'Top Cow' and 'Gonzo' for that. I never really cared about the franchise but I did watch the anime. Yeah, 'Gonzo' really did her up pretty good. But what aren't they good at aside from a ton of CGI? And I came to the table with the same expectations. But I did find the character 'Masane' to be interesting. While not throughly as interesting as said characters in other anime shows, but interesting enough. Yeah, they pulled little small jokes about her bust size, but they didn't make that the highlight of the show. To me she seemed pretty normal. A relatively straightforward character who was blessed by mother nature. I kind of found her refreshing. But 'Gonzo' still couldn't help the amount of attention they wanted to draw. And they couldn't really get away with what they wanted because of the "limitations". Of course that didn't totally stop them from finding ways around. But sadly, 'Witchblade' is not something to show a younger child. But if in later years they can see past the absurdity and see the "real" strength then it might not be so bad.

Deunan Knute, who's always been my model for super strong females would be a good pick. But again Shirow's heroines tend to lean more toward the testosterone side. It's that whole 'chicks' and guns deal. But again in the old days, Shirow wanted a more appealing heroine. Part beauty part beast. And we can't pick 'Revy'. Hahaha!! Though you gotta love her. Though there is nothing positive about her. But there's gotta be something there.

Kurau Phantom Memory is a good wholesome flick with a strong female character. There's the characters for 'R.O.D TV' (but maybe that might be a bit much there's violence in there but not much)'Cardcaptor Sakura', 'Key the Metal Idol', 'Denno Coil (someday). I'm mean the shows are out there. I was hoping one day to show 'Figure 17' to my niece. Since the show deals with a young girl trying to find her place after the death of her mother. I still have yet to watch that show. Embarassed

But just like this woman has beef with female characters not having a more stronger role instead of being too meek or too scantily cladded; I have a beef with "hentai". And that's worse. I'd been watching and collecting quite a bit of titles over the past couple of months. I should be a shamed. But of the titles I watched online I had to keep shaking my head at the constant amount of forced "fellatio". Goddamn! And my first thoughts were "gee, is that all they think women are good for? Sucking ****?". Yeah, one minute the characters are talking and getting along and she just pulls it out and goes to work. Maybe I'm just getting old and prudish. Maybe I'm forgetting that I was a teen once. There are times when I can take it and times I can't depending on the flick.

Sorry for going off topic. But I hear ya. That's why I steer clear of those types of shows and try to find the good in others. I do take some occassional shows if they entertain me since I'm an adult. But like I said they're out there.

Fat folks wearing pink wigs at cons? That's another head shaker. A pink wig is tacky. My niece asked for one but she's only 6.


Last edited by Chrno2 on Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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The Xenos



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Boston
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:42 pm Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
The second questioner wrote:
also why do i see so many fat girls wearing pink wigs at conventions, why is that so popular with the fat girls i don't get it.

Well, I think that's an American phenomenon only, as seen with my own eyes as well as this article.


Nice bit of racism going on there. Yes, I tossed out the r word. You can't tell me some Japanese cosplayers play the race card and accuse Americans of being fat and unable to cosplay.

Meanwhile, I do think America does have a higher percetage of overweight people. A number of these are anime fans an they do somehow think they can cosplay. I wish these people would diet before even thinking about cosplaying and giving American cosplayers a bad name.

No. Don't give me this bullcrap that cosplay is all about the costume and not about how you look. I could also say I'm a pretty pretty princess. That doesn't make it true, especially with my beard and all. No. Cosplay is explicitly about how you look. If you look terrible, then it's a terrible cosplay no matter you intention. Lord knows I've done cosplay gone wrong myself.

I myself and kinda tall and lanky, so I'm not doing any muscle bound heros. I'm also hairy as hell, so no bare chested bishonen for me either.
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