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NEWS: 2nd Japanese TV Station Removes Nymphet from Schedule


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Case



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 1016
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:55 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
I don't get how you can defend that as just being oh-so-hilarious comedy when the intent is obvious. Furthermore, what kind of sick fucker really thinks an 8-year old simulating a money shot is comedy gold?


Who thinks eating a baby is "comedy gold"? Nobody, would you say?

As a (former?) reviewer who has talked much about personal opinions, and how we should all realize that ANN's reviews are just opinions and not statements of fact, I don't know how you can pretend this Nymphet's approach can't be defended. (By anyone?) Further proof to me that ANN's reviewers have a serious problem distinguishing their own judgments from facts. I think you need to listen more and stop simplfying opposing viewpoints as "basically x" cleanly within your preconceived cognitive framework.
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britannicamoore



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:03 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

britannicamoore wrote:

I like how you did that. I wonder what came before? Or maybe after.

Is that any worse than a hundred year old vampire sitting in a bathtub licking blood of a ten year old boy as he says :Oh master it hurts. And then her laughing as his junk shrinks?

Be honest.


What in the world are you talking about?

Also welcome back to the thread, "if you have a problem with this then you have to have a problem with everything ever made" argument, I missed you


I'm very sorry. I'll try to be more clear:

I asked: Is the scence you showed and picked any worse than the scene I just described.

Not saying you have a problem with everything- its just a question. Is it that difficult to answer?

Zac wrote:

I don't get how you can defend that as just being oh-so-hilarious comedy when the intent is obvious. Furthermore, what kind of sick fucker really thinks an 8-year old simulating a money shot is comedy gold?


Hmm...sick fuckers huh? To that tenchi fanboy several posts back I bet you don't get called one of those.

I find the whole story funny. Thats because it is. I'm not into loli or whatever its called these days but its no worse than what i've read in other manga that sit on bookshelves in our bookstores now.

Want a list? I'm game.


Last edited by britannicamoore on Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:10 am Reply with quote
britannicamoore wrote:

I'm very sorry. I'll try to be more clear:

I asked: Is the scence you showed and picked any worse than the scene I just described.

Not saying you have a problem with everything- its just a question. Is it that difficult to answer?


Alright, well, if it's a 10-year old being presented as a sex object and the artwork is drawn like typical fanservice artwork, with the 10-year old's "junk" being shown front and center, and the rest of the work continued to show said 10-year old in sexually suggestive or explicit positions, then yes, it's shouta, and I have a problem with that like I do loli.

If the manga is about some depraved awful villain who does things like that and it's clearly presented - tastefully - as something horrifying and wrong, then that's fine. It's adult material to be sure, and shocking, but it would be like the "rape" scene in Perfect Blue. It's controversial, but there's meaning behind it, and it's not there to titillate - it's there to show you the bleak and terrible reality of the human condition.

Case wrote:

Who thinks eating a baby is "comedy gold"? Nobody, would you say?

As a (former?) reviewer who has talked much about personal opinions, and how we should all realize that ANN's reviews are just opinions and not statements of fact, I don't know how you can pretend this Nymphet's approach can't be defended. (By anyone?) Further proof to me that ANN's reviewers have a serious problem distinguishing their own judgments from facts. I think you need to listen more and stop simplfying opposing viewpoints as "basically x" cleanly within your preconceived cognitive framework.


Not me, actually - the whole "eating babies" thing is a desperate grab at "edginess", and that episode was kinda weak. Metalocalypse is funny because the band members are silly and stupid. The violence is an attempt at satirizing the iconography of death metal, and I'm not sure how successful it really is.

Also, if "The Dethklok Home for Wayward Kitties" didn't make you laugh, I don't know what would. Apparently 8-year olds simulating a money shot, I guess.

You're not listening to anyone else either, Case, nor are you even bothering to address half of what's being said to you, so don't tell me I'm the one being close-minded when you're just being a coward and ignoring parts of the argument you don't like. So give me a break already.
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britannicamoore



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:22 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
britannicamoore wrote:

I'm very sorry. I'll try to be more clear:

I asked: Is the scence you showed and picked any worse than the scene I just described.

Not saying you have a problem with everything- its just a question. Is it that difficult to answer?


Alright, well, if it's a 10-year old being presented as a sex object and the artwork is drawn like typical fanservice artwork, with the 10-year old's "junk" being shown front and center, and the rest of the work continued to show said 10-year old in sexually suggestive or explicit positions, then yes, it's shouta, and I have a problem with that like I do loli.

If the manga is about some depraved awful villain who does things like that and it's clearly presented - tastefully - as something horrifying and wrong, then that's fine. It's adult material to be sure, and shocking, but it would be like the "rape" scene in Perfect Blue. It's controversial, but there's meaning behind it, and it's not there to titillate - it's there to show you the bleak and terrible reality of the human condition.


Typical fanserivce (throughout the seris) Check
Artwork drawn as fanservice Check
His junk being shown- nope. I don't remember anyone's junk being shown in the manga- but its been awhile
Explicit Positions- arguable. You'd have to see it and i have no pics.

She's a bit of a villain but a hero as well. She's seen licking him up and drinking his blood several times. Theres even a scene where his friends hear and they think the two of them are having sex- they aren't though.

To imply this further he comes back to the house many times ery tierd and his friends think something is up between him and the vampire- in a lewed way.

It's a gag- a trick. Joke.

Not sure if he's a sex object or not- the girls like him and always talk about dating him when he's older.

Theres not meaning behinnd it. it's part of the comedy and fanservice of the manga. Theres no signs behinnd it- in fact I'd say there are more signs behinnd the actions in Nymphet than there are in this manga.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:29 am Reply with quote
britannicamoore wrote:
stuff


Wanna tell me what manga you're talking about here? Because I have no idea.
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britannicamoore



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:34 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
britannicamoore wrote:
stuff


Wanna tell me what manga you're talking about here? Because I have no idea.


Negima. the scene I brought up was from vol 15 period 137
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:04 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
ikillchicken wrote:

This is where I'm still skeptical though. Without a doubt thats just dripping with sexual innuendo and suggestivity. However if it truely is meant to be comedic, wouldn't that be the point? To make it as outrageously sexual as possible? Its definitely not innocent (meaning not suggestive) but just becuase its suggestive doesn't mean its for titilation.


Say like someone drew a manga where a really racist white guy went around murdering black people. Say like the violence was usually pretty explicit, although not obscene. Say like it was all played for laughs, and there was someone in the manga who blushed at each murder and said "Oh, you really shouldn't be doing that, Violent Racist-kun!".


Well, Thats somewhat different since they're hurting others and not just potentially hurting themselves.

As an alternative, what about the situation you described, except its not for comedy, its for a serious drama? That would be okay right? Ofcourse that would obviously present it as being a very bad thing even though its happening.

I guess maybe thats where the problem arises with this. Its essentially using it for a similar purpose (except comedy instead of drama). Unfortunately, though like in drama, it is not presented in a positive light, because of the less serious nature of comedy, you don't really notice that same negative message with a drama. If you look at it factually, nobodys saying that kids should act like this. However, yes, like you said the attempt to say that this is bad is pretty half hearted.

Quote:
Saying "it's for laughs" does not deny the presentation of the material and the obvious themes inherent in the work, nor does it deny how trashy and exploitative the presentation is. Kodomo no Jikan follows the basic tenets of every ecchi manga out there - there's a buildup, and then a big splash page ecchi drawing (usually more than one), then a sort of half-hearted condemnation of the previous actions, then we move on.


So you find that its objectionable even if it isnt meant for titillation? What exactly do you mean by "exploitative"? If you just think its trashy or offensive to depict such things no matter the purpose, thats understandable to me. Or do you think that its still obvious that the intend is for titilation. If you do, I can't blame you for condemning it. I still am not certain I agree though.
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Talon87



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 89
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:16 am Reply with quote
ultrapostman wrote:
How do you know that KNJ is a hit in the lolicon community? It's not pornographic at all, and I think pedophiles would be more likely to jerk off to something where the kids actually have sex.
First off, I know because I've been a member in large otaku communities with very vocal pro- and anti-loli groups, and the lolikons have rallied behind this piece for the past year. It has been front and center of their fandom, of their desire to see more works like this be able to "break the mold" and become accepted by the public. KnJ was a central part of a huge debate on one particular English-speaking otaku forum last year and many were the lolikons who asked, "Don't judge it until you've tried it." That was when I offered to download Volume 1 and give it a look-through. And my negative opinion wasn't undone, but rather solidified.

Second, as any fan of loli would tell you, it's an insult to lump loli in with pedophilia; your suggestion is as base as telling a fan of rape hentai, "You'd probably be better off watching real women get raped in front of a video camera." In the same sense that staged rape in pornography "just isn't the same" as "authentic" rape scenes shown in hentai, lolikons have argued that there is next to no sexual appeal of seeing an 18+ year old speak like a baby wittle girl in a school uniform and have sex. And that they would never, ever dream of harming an actual child; thus, they turn to loli hentai, where you get both the "reality" of an actual underage schoolgirl having sex and no real-world victim. This point brings us a little too close to the whole "loli debate" line in the sand, so I won't say more; just pointing out that you're being awfully counter-productive for your own case if you do claim to be a defender of those fans of loli stories like KnJ.

Quote:
She writes manga for a living and doesn't want to just drop a series that is obviously selling (and you can't say "selling to the loli fans" cause there's no proof that they're the principal market)
In the same sense that a gunsmith would continue to sell guns for a living because "there's no proof" that half of her arms are falling into the wrong hands? Please. This is a shameless lack of ethics and you know it -- if you really are insinuating that this is the situation with KnJ, then you're basically spitting in the author's face.

Quote:
Quote:
That's just it, though. "Unintended"? Who do you think you're kidding? KnJ's loli appeal is about as unintended as Dead or Alive's buxom breast appeal is. Or are you going to tell me that Tomonobu Itagaki had no idea that his fighters' selling point was their sex appeal?


Bringing up Dead or Alive? That's totally not fair
Hahaha. Whatever. I make a valid analogy (and a tame one at that!) and you cry foul. Pfft.

Quote:
I said that we can't know if KNJ is meant to be pornographic or not, so there's no basis for assumption one way or the other.
Dude. As has been repeated again and again and again, a person who looks at Volume 1 of KnJ and decides "there was no obvious intention to sexually titillate the reader" would have to decide the same thing about any sexual sitcom. It would be like saying, "Well gee, you're not supposed to be enjoying looking at Naru's boobs, you're supposed to simply appreciate that they're so big Keitaro's hands keep landing on them on accident!" If we can be honest about Love Hina and Negima, why can't we be honest about Kodomo no Jikan!? What the hell. If you're going to defend it, fine, defend it -- but defend what it actually is, and not what you would have it be in your wild imagination.
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ArielTsuki



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 178
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:33 am Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
Ryllharu wrote:

The overarching message is exactly the same, "children should act like children." There is something very wrong with her behavior, and that's the whole point of the series.


So you're suggesting an 8 yr old child wants someone to have sex with her?

Because that's really what you sound like you're suggesting

And in California, at least, the teacher has the responsibility to turn the matter over to Child Protective Services & NOT try to straighten things out himself since he apparently doesn't have the training to do so. I think any rational adult would be doing their best to get an 8 yr old behaving in this manner to a shrink. Very likely she'd be removed from the home immediately until the source of the behavior was discovered.

There's a dif between soap opera 20-something or even a teen talking out his/her angst over a cup of joe & a child who seems to be obviously the subject of some sort of abuse or inappropriate behavior. It is the responsibility of the teacher to get professional help for the child, otherwise this is pure fantasy which throws it right back into the land of fantasy/titillation


Crap, did you listen before in the last argument? Aoki-sensei DID try to find help for Rin (you wouldn't know because you didn't read the source). And it reflected in classic Japanese behavior: they basically told him to mind his business about it if the parents won't do anything. Why do you think intense bullying that's on the rise in Japan is basically unchecked? Because teachers are told to mind their business. Hell, you read Loveless, they basically said the same thing to Shimonome-sensei even though it was clear that Ritsuka was being abused. The child protection services in Japan are well known to be pretty much crap, it's not surprising that manga/anime reflect this.

Talon87 wrote:
Ryllharu wrote:
I suggest you do a lot more research into Kojika before making more remarks like this. In that exact post you quoted, I posted that no one in the series condones her behavior.
When will you and others like you realize that it's completely irrelevant what the in-story characters think about someone's actions? Mad What matters is what feelings are elicited in the real-world audience, especially when the author is making a demonstrable effort to elicit those feelings.

An author who intended to smite pedophilia would not illustrate Kodomo no Jikan the way she has, nor would she tell the story the way she has. It is meant to elicit chuckles, not frowns. It is meant to entice, not repulse nor disgust. The very nature of Kodomo no Jikan suggests that the author wants readers to root for Rin -- or at the very least to find her teacher's situation humorous. It is meant to be a happy work, not a sad, depressing work. This much is clear to anyone who has even given the first volume a quick read-through.


It does make a world of difference if the character in the story thinks of a character. Rin's behavior is not accepted nor encouraged. That's what the audiences supposed to react to it, that is something wrong with this child. And her advances aren't supposed to tittlate as much as intimidate.

Plus you didn't get past the first volume so you wouldn't know the whole backstory of how Rin is what she is. Plus KoJika isn't marketed towards lolicons, it's in a bishoujo magazine for guys which includes titles like Girls' High, Potemayo and Hitohira, which are obviously not lolicon titles. KoJika is a PARODY of that genre, the fanservice isn't supposed to be taken seriously like a real lolicon title. If there's people who take it the wrong way, it's not the fault of the author.

Well, it doesn't matter now, KoJika was only prempted/canceled because of some principal hitting on a 16 year old student.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:38 am Reply with quote
Case wrote:

On a related note, Ask John wrote an article on this very same topic that I find very rational and nonjudgmental. "Viewers that don't find the Moetan and Kodomo no Jikan anime funny are probably irrevocably opposed to anime starring small girls. For the sake of convenience, I'll refer to this genre as "Lolita anime" meaning "moe" anime featuring preadolescent looking bishoujo. I doubt that there's anything I could say which would change the opinion of someone adamantly opposed to Lolita anime."
http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1656
And there lies the crux of the problem. This blurring of the definition of moe to include something sexual which is Lolita Complex, and completely different. Moe is not Lolita just as Lolita isn't moe. At least not in it's original definition which is what I adhere to.
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CCSYueh



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:49 pm Reply with quote
Steroid--
ok. Because you did sound a bit over there. No prob

Ultrapostman-
There's Satanism like the ones that make the news which usually are stray individuals rebelling against the Christian god they were brought up with. LeVey's group out of San Francisco is pretty much the only organised group calling themselves Church of Satan I'm aware of (King Diamond was a member) & LeVey's group is more secular humanism-Satan's crime was putting himself over God & one of their beliefs is worshiping oneself as an embodyment of Satan. They're actually this side of the Mosaic law-Levey said one has to warn an enemy to stop & if they don't, it's ok to curse them. One of their biggest claims to fame was Jayne Mansfield was a member & after she was all but decapitated in an accident the press asked LeVey about it & his response was he warned her to stay away from her managers since he cursed him for speaking out against LeVey.

So LeVey's group is really just another religion.

However, you're totally off on the non-loli being used for self-pleasure. Look at all the read-between-the-lines yaoi out there. Come on, Gojyo's totally a womanizer, yet isn't he coupled with Hakkai a lot? He did save Hakkai's life. (nudge, nudge) Weiss Kruez, all the other bishie shojo titles where there is no yaoi action the fans insert it. Hells bells, the most fun about Gakuen Heaven is all the jokes "It's so white, can I touch it?" "No, you'll get it dirty!" & they're talking about a teacup. You have to admit a title like Jikan has to lend itself to those who lean towards pedophilia's fantasies whether it does that for you or not.

Whoever said manga-ka's are all that intelligent? They're like the rest of us--some are very intelligent & others are idiots (such as Zatch Bell's manga-ka, unable to believe diet Coke had no sugar in it washing his hands in diet Coke &-wow, his hands weren't sticky! Or YuYu Hakusho's author titling a series Level E & telling his editor it was E for Alien only to have the editor point out Alien starts with an A). For the most part, they're in it for a buck. If a title sells, great. If it doesn't, they have to make one that does.

Talon-fanfics are scary things & the ones you mention (such as on Deviant Art) are likely inspired by original Japanese tales & so are a knock-off--as much Japanese as whichever country the writre is from. If not influenced by the Japanese original, would most of thatr stuff exist? My teen spends her afternoons drawing manga, writing fanfics, & roleplaying yaoi--I would never say they were American just because she is--it's Japanese filtered thru an American mentality.
I have basically ignored fanfics because even though the handful I read were pretty good, I have read about the scary Star Trek ones where it's always Amok Time & the object of desire is the author(There's aparently yaoi. God, I don't want to think about it) for decades & I'm afraid I'm going to come across the anime versions.

I'm sure someone has paired Han Solo & Chewbacca & I really don't want to think about that.

Case--
As a headbanger from the 80's heyday I will say I find Metalocalypse more stupid than dirt. In fact, most of Adult Swim's "humor" line-up is stupid. That night they aired all those titles instead of the anime I was totally flabergasted at the complete idiocy of the humor--like that stupid Barbarian title's writers really need to watch Bastard or Slayers to see some decent sword & sorcery humor. Particularly Bastard. I'm-on-fire-so-I'm-screaming. I'm supposed to laugh?
THe Adult Swim Comedy Night gets better ratings than their anime? That's so sad.
I'll gamble the Hannabal Lecter joke is purely Hannabal Lecter. He is a joke-enjine unto himself. You don't have to say "cannibal"-you just say Hannibal Lector & pretty much all Americans know who he is.

ArielTsuki-

Even if one's superiors want to sweep it under the carpet, one can go outside their power. Aoki Sensei could take her to a shrink. Obviously whatever he's doing hasn't changed her behavior, has it?
Not to mention, is it that CPS in Japan is a joke, or media portrayal is? How many Medical Examiners are like Quincy? I was watching Cold Case the other day & the medical Examiner in that segment said it's a joke how they're portrayed in the media. She's never done any of that stuff-chasing down the suspect or whatever. How many laws does the average tv cop break in any given episode of any crime drama? I thought Japan at least pays lip service to supporting all those child protection standards of the UN even if their entertainment industry has genres undermining it. We saw crack-downs on risque manga aimed at girls. I hear the Japanese PTA is a force to be reckoned with-Bobobo allegedly met an early demise after attracting their attention.

As an adult who has had to teach her own child, at some point most adults will put their foot down & say "STOP IT!" No blushing. No mincing words. A few times may be cute, but once it gets to be completely irritating, an adult orders the child to stop. He has more power than she does. It wouldn't continue for chapters.
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Talon87



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 89
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:56 pm Reply with quote
^ The original request was for somebody to provide an example of a country which commercially produces Kodomo no Jikan-like material. Because of the "commercial" stipulation, I failed and would admit that the fanfics argument, while close, was too far off the mark to be admissable. Indeed, even when fanfics have been sold for commercial value, I can only turn to Japan and its flourishing doujinshi subculture for examples. I can't think of any other country where something similar to parody doujinshi exist and they are legally sold for money. (Or at the very least sold in very public very well-known convention halls and/or Akiba shops while the person who holds the copyright for the original characters doesn't lift a finger.)
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Berserkfury819



Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:57 pm Reply with quote
Oh come on, Metalocalypse is hilarious. Very Happy I'm a metalhead and so I get most of the jokes, but how can you not love a clown who dresses up like Gene Simmons and runs around screaming in a high pitched voice "Gigigigi yeeeeaaahhhhhh! I'm Dr. Rockso, the Rock'N'Roll Clown! I do cocaine! Seriously, I do a lot of cocaine."

Metalocaypse is the funniest show on Adult Swim, at least in my opinion.
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ultrapostman



Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 164
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:44 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:


Ultrapostman-
There's Satanism like the ones that make the news which usually are stray individuals rebelling against the Christian god they were brought up with. LeVey's group out of San Francisco is pretty much the only organised group calling themselves Church of Satan I'm aware of (King Diamond was a member) & LeVey's group is more secular humanism-Satan's crime was putting himself over God & one of their beliefs is worshiping oneself as an embodyment of Satan. They're actually this side of the Mosaic law-Levey said one has to warn an enemy to stop & if they don't, it's ok to curse them. One of their biggest claims to fame was Jayne Mansfield was a member & after she was all but decapitated in an accident the press asked LeVey about it & his response was he warned her to stay away from her managers since he cursed him for speaking out against LeVey.

So LeVey's group is really just another religion.



I know about LaVey and his "church" and I think that this relgion is basically the antithesis of Christianity. He actually said "Love only those who deserve it". I've got a serious problem with that, because it goes against the very core of what Jesus taught, but this is all off topic. I was just saying that I believe Satanism is fundamentally wrong and I stick by that.

Quote:
Second, as any fan of loli would tell you, it's an insult to lump loli in with pedophilia; your suggestion is as base as telling a fan of rape hentai, "You'd probably be better off watching real women get raped in front of a video camera." In the same sense that staged rape in pornography "just isn't the same" as "authentic" rape scenes shown in hentai, lolikons have argued that there is next to no sexual appeal of seeing an 18+ year old speak like a baby wittle girl in a school uniform and have sex. And that they would never, ever dream of harming an actual child; thus, they turn to loli hentai, where you get both the "reality" of an actual underage schoolgirl having sex and no real-world victim. This point brings us a little too close to the whole "loli debate" line in the sand, so I won't say more; just pointing out that you're being awfully counter-productive for your own case if you do claim to be a defender of those fans of loli stories like KnJ.


You're right, I shouldn't have associated lolicon with pedophilia. It is sort of bollocks when I'm trying to defend it. Thanks for pointing it out.

As for the responding to your other points, I'm not going to. Why? Well, because I'm bored trying to defend Knj against everyone here. I use the same arguements all the time, and I think they're good arguements, but they just won't work. So, in order keep myself interested, I'm switching to the anti-Knj/lolicon side. My opinions haven't changed in the slightest; I'm just doing this for kicks.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:57 pm Reply with quote
ultrapostman wrote:
So, in order keep myself interested, I'm switching to the anti-Knj/lolicon side. My opinions haven't changed in the slightest; I'm just doing this for kicks.


Thanks for publicly announcing that you're basically trolling and are now "switching" to another side of the argument "for kicks". I'd be happy to boot you out of here for this, so consider this your "don't do that" warning.

If you're tired of the conversation, go read a different thread.
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