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"Perverted" premises / stories...


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Gon*Gon



Joined: 29 Sep 2011
Posts: 679
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:20 pm Reply with quote
the most common reply to a lot of perverted(often lolicon or yuri) series ever. wrote:
Ugh, what kinda of lonely perverted old man must have drawn THIS series up! Only a perverted misogynist can possibly have thought up something as creepy as THIS!


But when I looked them up myself, many of the mangakas are females! And 90% of the stuff they write are aimed at a male audience!

That isn't to say male mangakas don't make perverted stuff, or stuff aimed at females, but...does anyone else find this odd anyways?

Kodomo No Jikan, Astarotte's Toy(Lotte No Omocha), Sekirei, B Gata H Kei, Girls Bravo, Mitsudomoe, and various hentai I've followed are all written by a female manga. After looking around the boorus, I also noticed many of the artists I kept track of were females as well! No commercial artists, but just people drawing art to show off or for fun. Many of those artworks are NSFW, and they're often materials aimed at a male audience.

Haga Yui makes a special mention because she did hentai, a manga, AND various artwork herself...most of them lolicon(as opposed to shotacon...which you'd expect from a female).

Oh, and this doesn't really fit this thread all that much, but I still have to mention it...Usagi Drop. The series whose ending made a hilarious amount of people throw an over the top hissy fit? Also written by a female!(a mother no less!)

So is there any explanation for this? How come many of the most perverted(and entertaining!) mangas I've seen that looks like they're mostly aimed at male...are all in fact written and drawn by females?

You'd think a male would be better at writing such materials, but no, the mangaka of my favourite manga of all time is a female...is it a girl thing? Like how come they don't write the same story/artworks, but with fanservice with boys in them instead of girls?


Discuss.

[EDIT: Fixed your thread title so something would fit. Truncated the actual title itself to something more ambiguous but still curious enough for people to want to click on it. -TK]
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wcsinn



Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 186
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:38 pm Reply with quote
I may be wrong here, but this post seems like more of an attempt to demean and harp on ecchi, lolis and the same old same old than an honest attempt to start up a discussion.

First - using perverted (usually a demeaning or negative term) with "most entertaining" seems an anomaly. If you enjoy those works, why purposely refer to them in a negative tone?

Second, what makes you think those titles you mentioned are aimed at only male audiences? My wife and adult daughter both thoroughly enjoyed Lotte's Toy. You seem to be willing to assume the worst of these titles (despite your implication that you some how enjoyed them) and also assume that because they contain "perversion and filth" that they will only appeal to a male audience. Perhaps you are projecting your own thoughts and prejudices onto these works, and assuming meanings the original female authors never intended?
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Gon*Gon



Joined: 29 Sep 2011
Posts: 679
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:42 pm Reply with quote
....I'm a HUGE fan of most of those series I listed. You have no idea how much I wish KnJ and LnO were in english. Crying or Very sad

Why do you think I bothered to look up their mangakas? Plus, I follow many artists in the doujin scene...many of them turned out to be drawn by females.

Quote:
First - using perverted (usually a demeaning or negative term) with "most entertaining" seems an anomaly. If you enjoy those works, why purposely refer to them in a negative tone?


Why must "perverted" be so negative? I'm a human being. I like comedy. I like perverted comedy because it makes fun of things that people often find squeamish. Plus, these series are often happy-go-lucky in a heartwarming way. Like the time Reiji rescues Aoki despite the spite the two have for each other.

For me, perverted is a neutral term. It's not necessarily bad or good. Some will like it, others will burn it.

Quote:
Second, what makes you think those titles you mentioned are aimed at only male audiences?


Well...many of the fanservice in Astarotte are aimed at males...although I do know there's a female fanbase for the series. Particularly centered around Naoya...and flashback shota-Naoya.

If you're referring to the quote at the start of my message. That isn't me....it's basically the amalgamation of every single post that comments about how these series "must be drawn by a male because I female wouldn't demean their fellow women like this".
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:19 pm Reply with quote
Gingin wrote:
You'd think a male would be better at writing such materials, but no, the mangaka of my favourite manga of all time is a female...is it a girl thing? Like how come they don't write the same story/artworks, but with fanservice with boys in them instead of girls?


I just look at it as a woman will know what drives men wild and get their attention. They're masters at it. A male might just throw in some standard panty shots, jiggling boobs, nudity, etcf... but women are masters at subtlety when it comes to teasing men and doing things even we don't know why we like.

For example, that scene of Rin when she pulls her panties off from under her skirt, leans back on a desk and says "Sensei.. what do you think would happen if I screamed "Help!" right now..?" with a coy look on her face.

Though it'd be a bit dismissive to just say KnJ is for that.. it truly does deal with the psychological and emotional issues behind the way Rin acts and how messed up her family is and it's affect on her. It brings up issues like what it means to be truly ready for sex (and not just an arbitrary number like the "legal age" society says.. what makes one not ready for sex, yet in 4 hours after midnight when you turn 18, you're suddenly granted all the wisdom in the world to willingly have sex legally from only a few hours ago?) and other things. There's story, character depth, and social satire there along with the loli fanservice. I enjoy going to various blogs and hear other people's analysis of the scenes in KnJ, and I found a very nice analysis of the early part of the series I like

"Being disruptive in class, Rin lands herself in trouble after school. Aoki learns Rin has harassed her previous teachers, who in response, says it's because those teachers harassed her friend. Nevertheless, Aoki tells Rin he must inform her parents of this. In response, Rin pulls down her panties and blackmails Aoki: "What do you think will happen if I screamed, 'Help' right now?"

In this single scene, the author strongly characterizes Rin and hints at a point of social criticism that she reinforces later on. The reader and Aoki first meet Rin as a cheerful and playful, though somewhat naughty girl, but very quickly, this scene juxtaposes this image with that of a child who is no longer a child. Her cruelty toward her previous teacher, her exposing herself, and her awareness of how society would interpret the scene all present an image of a girl all too aware of reality, no matter how society may want to imagine girls: as pure and innocent. Neither is her reaction childish: she doesn't blackmail Aoki because she's afraid of getting into trouble, but rather, as is revealed later, to keep Aoki from knowing that her parents are divorced and her mother dead. Rin wants Aoki's love rather than his pity, and have him not see the side of her life which she hates"


As for why people bash it, really it just comes down to personal belief and cultural differences. America, founded on Christianity, is a very conservative and puritan by default. Just the idea of nudity in the public can set off a chain reaction of things (re: Janet Jackson super-bowl incident) So most people, Americans, who criticism those kinds of series, are doing so from how they were raised and the norms they were received. By default, that's not too bad, but it's when they cross the line and say things like "only sickos would like this" or "Japan is so messed up, what is wrong with them" "Japan is so depraved and pathetic" etc that it becomes closemindedness/hyperbole/zealotry/racism/whathaveyou.
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Gon*Gon



Joined: 29 Sep 2011
Posts: 679
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:35 pm Reply with quote
Wait...the main purpose of this thread was about how the creators of many of these perverted works are done by females, the new title kinda misses that point.

Quote:
I just look at it as a woman will know what drives men wild and get their attention. They're masters at it. A male might just throw in some standard panty shots, jiggling boobs, nudity, etcf... but women are masters at subtlety when it comes to teasing men and doing things even we don't know why we like.


But then why wouldn't they do female oriented fanservice? As a female, they'd know what other females would want. Just like how many male writers know what males want. For example, having the genders swapped in Kodomo No Jikan so that it's 3 shotas and one female teacher(just like in those omakes actually). Though in KnJ's case, certain elements of the story will have to change as well...Rin's actions are cute, but from a little boy, it can appear downright nasty.

I do agree that there is a difference in delivery though. For all the criticisms Astarotte's Toy get, it's no where near as depraved as people who never seen it before make it.

Quote:
but it's when they cross the line and say things like "only sickos would like this" or "Japan is so messed up, what is wrong with them" "Japan is so depraved and pathetic" etc that it becomes closemindedness/hyperbole/zealotry/racism/whathaveyou.


Close minded people will never understand or bother to look at a work they automatically deem as trash, that's a fact we all already know.

The purpose of my quote was to point out the fact all too often people often label the authors of such works as males when more often than you'd expect, they're females.


Last edited by Gon*Gon on Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 2370
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:45 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
But then why wouldn't they do female oriented fanservice?


Maybe they don't want to or maybe they have included content in these series that appeal to women too. Perhaps "fanservice" doesn't just mean pantyshots.
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Anymouse



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 685
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:17 pm Reply with quote
Part of it is that in Japan feminism hasn't moved past the 60's. They still seem to put a much greater emphasis on using one's sexual freedom to please men. It is also quite possible that many of these women are just as turned on by this as their audience is. Heck, here in the U.S. there are many women who go to strip clubs with their boyfriend, from what I hear.
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 3498
Location: IN your nightmares
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:55 am Reply with quote
You could pull a bunch of ecchi or ecchi-ish titles out of a hat that happen to be written by women and say many such titles are written by women and create a false impression about female mangaka and ecchi manga in general. Overall I see that the majority of manga aimed at men/boys are written by guys, and this is true of the perverted category, hard core hentai, and the not-so-perverted types. In fact if you look at what is not mainstream and do a cross-section of the new and/or average mangaka out there I'd say it's quite heavy handed toward the male demographic even with the relatively common ambiguous or unknown author gender you see these days.

The big exception with the above statements is of course BL, which tend to be on the perverted side, and are almost exclusively written by female authors. But this doesn't really tie into the aimed at male audience type of perverted discussion.
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JaffaOrange



Joined: 01 Apr 2011
Posts: 250
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:20 am Reply with quote
Well it's not hard to come up with the premise. Writing and artwork isn't really gender selective.

Perhaps female mangakas draw up ecchi stuff targetted towards men because it sells better and/or they simply find it more fun or interesting?
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JASON221



Joined: 04 Oct 2011
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:27 pm Reply with quote
Anymouse wrote:
Part of it is that in Japan feminism hasn't moved past the 60's. They still seem to put a much greater emphasis on using one's sexual freedom to please men. It is also quite possible that many of these women are just as turned on by this as their audience is. Heck, here in the U.S. there are many women who go to strip clubs with their boyfriend, from what I hear.
very right well done
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HaruhiToy



Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4118
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:53 pm Reply with quote
Gingin wrote:


I take exception to putting KNJ in this category. In spite of the hysteria about it you read here and there it is neither perverted nor ecchi.
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Gon*Gon



Joined: 29 Sep 2011
Posts: 679
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:21 pm Reply with quote
Now I love Kodomo No Jikan as much as the next person......who bothered to give it a chance(1% of the people who heard of it.). But while there's undoubtedly a very well written story with fleshed out characters, even I have to admit there's a fair deal of fanservice here and there...and that's just the way I like it. Wink It just wouldn't be the same without the fanservice peppered here and there.

Quote:
Part of it is that in Japan feminism hasn't moved past the 60's. They still seem to put a much greater emphasis on using one's sexual freedom to please men.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but...I recently read about a very recently released DC comic that had some Teen Titan chick behaving just like how you described as "60's feminism". As in the chick used her sexual freedom to please men, in the american comic...wish I remembered her name.

Quote:
Perhaps female mangakas draw up ecchi stuff targetted towards men because it sells better and/or they simply find it more fun or interesting?

My original thought is that they're doing it to get paid too...but then I remember that there were also quite a few fan artists and doujin artists who do these kinds of stuff too...

Your second explanation might be the answer though...

Quote:
Perhaps "fanservice" doesn't just mean pantyshots.


Many of the series don't have any equivalents on the male character though. The closest thing those series have that appeals to females would be....a bishonen. I guess cute characters count too, but those apply to both genders.
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wcsinn



Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 186
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:39 pm Reply with quote
HaruhiToy wrote:
I take exception to putting KNJ in this category. In spite of the hysteria about it you read here and there it is neither perverted nor ecchi.


A good portion of that hysteria comes from right here, these very forums (in fact I am surprised we haven't seen the usually tirades yet). That said, I have seen all but one of those series, enjoyed them all - including KNJ, and agree that the "moral majority" crowd blows the content (and intentions) way out of proportion. But I think claiming KNJ is not ecchi is ... well, off the mark a bit. The basis for the story line alone pretty much puts it firmly into ecchi territory especially when you add in the fan service. Again, the fan service (and storyline) have been grossly over blown and frequently taken completely out of context, but still.

I think Lotte's Toy has suffered the same treatment, often from folks who have obviously never even seen the series - they read some unfortunate marketing jargon (that really doesn't reflect the actual content) and focused in on that. Reminds of the folks who haven't read harry Potter, but want it banned because it deals with witchcraft.

In both cases, I think the series have suffered unnecessary and unfounded criticism that often borders on paranoia. Personally, I think these attacks often say more about the obsessions of the critics than they do about the materials in question. But not ecchi at all - that's a bit of a stretch.
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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 2370
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:42 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Many of the series don't have any equivalents on the male character though. The closest thing those series have that appeals to females would be....a bishonen. I guess cute characters count too, but those apply to both genders.


Then you should have first started a thread asking why women enjoy ecchi titles that you think are geared more towards men. I'm not equipped to answer that question but can say from reading similar topics the answers will be more mixed than just bishonen or explicit sexuality.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:58 pm Reply with quote
Gingin wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...I recently read about a very recently released DC comic that had some Teen Titan chick behaving just like how you described as "60's feminism". As in the chick used her sexual freedom to please men, in the american comic...wish I remembered her name.


Starfire.

American comics are pretty much a male-dominated field, though, which is why that stuff is so common. Not really sure how Japan's supposed '60s femnism' comes into play though, when you have tons of female mangaka all in a variety of genres and demographics. Just because some decide to do ecchi doesn't mean it's because of 'sexism' or 'oppression' or whatever. Girls can be perverted too. Besides, I thought I heard KnJ's mangaka based some stuff on her experiences as a child or something.
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