Forum - View topicNEWS: Japanese request Fansub Removal
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
bluechibi
Posts: 137 |
|
|||||||
|
I think you can have a stimulating conversation about Fansubs without it having to turn into a flame fest. (I believe the news article was about both an individual case and the fact that there are japanese companies that would prefer you not to fansub their stuff) So I really don't like it when people see this being talked about and prefer to avoid it. You would expect that with subs and dubs because everyone has their choice of what they watch but fansubs we're talking about something that affects the industry.
I believe someone mentioned that people in Japan tape stuff off TV and that fansubs were something similar? That's not true at all. When animes get shown on tv, many 10,000s of people see it at once, the exposure of anime helps promote it and only a tiny percentage of that will even bother to tape it. Also when animes are created they are never freely given to the channels. They get money from having their series on TV. Like someone agreed above, hardly promoting the series when most people get a DVD or VCDs of a new series, even it's one they really like. Will they go out and buy the DVD. The majority will say no, why should I bother when I have it on my computer, or on these DVDs. It even stretches further, Cowboy Bebop comes on to TV, why won't you watch? I've already seen it, why should I see something I've already got on my computer. So not only are fansubs keeping a lot of fans from getting the series on DVD they can't even be bothered to watch it - for free - on the television which does help the industry. In the UK by the time Cowboy Bebop came onto TV quite a lot of the fans had already seen the series through fansubs and just didn't bother watching it, which probably left not so great ratings for the channel, who then arent sure if anime is worth it. I'm all for other ways of promoting series, but I feel there are a lot of people who really want to get as much as they can for nothing. We all know about the many 10,000s that download movies on the internet and then don't go and see the film in the cinema or buy them on dvd. or rent them etc. What's the point. Hardly promoting an anime series I believe fansubs do affect the industry and the Japanese companies that makes them. Tomorrow you could put a new series of an anime online. Give it 6 months and you've probably got 100,000 people who have it. You'd be suprised by how many people pass it around on p2p. (on just this one supernode alone 250 people have Azumanga Eps1) Sell them on fansub CDs. Allow them to be downloaded on communities and forum communities. Passing DVDs and VCDs from friend to friend (and at anime clubs). Even borrowing harddrives. My friend offered to let me borrow one of his harddrives. It had 52 complete series on it, about 450 episodes that's say what, about 150 commercial DVDs? Not one of those series hasn't been picked up already. So just an example of some of the lengths people will go to pass around fansubs even if they have been picked up (recently or 9 years ago) |
||||||||
|
||||||||
Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
|
|||||||
The Japanese Industry has vested interests in the international industry. If you hurt the American industry, you hurt the Japanese industry. This is because the the more money that North American companies make, the more money Japanese companies can ask for in terms of licensing fees. Also, some licensing fees may be based on profit sharing, ie: US Company pays x% of its profit to Japanese company. I'm not going to tell you that your wrong, because if you are of the belief that fansubs help the American industry without harming it, then the same would be true for the Japanese Industry. Unfortunately that's a very debatable topic, one that fewer and fewer people believe. Obviously Sony Japan, Madhouse (Madhouse has made requests via Urban Vision that their shows, licensed or not, not be fansubbed) and Kyoto Animation don't believe it. Personally, in their current state, I think fansubs are doing more harm than good  ... industry wise that is. They're still a great resource for fans, but that's not the concern of the industry.
I don't want to see fansubs go away, I like fansubbers in general, I like what they're doing. But unless the fansub groups pro-actively change to address the industry's fears I see them being forced to change by an industry that will become less and less tolerant of what is, regardless of ethics, an illegal activity. The most unfortunate thing, is that I suspect that more and more fansubbers will react to the industry pressure in a guerrilla sort of way, turning the fansub community more and more into a mirror of the warez industry. Hacked distros, focus on the latest 0-day animez, etc.... -t |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
okendri
Posts: 80 |
|
|||||||
Where do propose to put all this anime? Anime is nowhere as accepted in the US as Japan, so only a few channels air anime. Then factor in the price of licensing a series and that limits the amount of anime that one station could air. Well you must be the only person who hasn't. Also if a person pays $120 for a series they don't have any clue about it, only has themselves to blame. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
cyrax777
 Posts: 1825 Location: the desert |
|
|||||||
|
japanese DVDs always cost alot its called the Exchange rate!. hell compare a japanese dvd of a american movie to the r1 release the jp dvd is going to cost alot more then the american dvd its becouse goods cost more becouse of the exchange rate.
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Steventheeunuch
|
|
|||||||
|
Actually, it's nothing to do with the exchange rate (in the long run), because even Japanese people consider DVDs to be expensive.
|
||||||||
|
Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
|
|||||||
Umm, no, its not related to the exchange rate. I can't even fathom why you would think that it was related to the exchange rate. That would be like saying DVDs are more expensive when you pay for them with pennies. Let me explain, $1 USD = 109.450 JPY (1 JPY = 0.00913659 USD). Usual suggested retail price of a DVD in the US? $24.99 ~ $29.99 Currency exchange rate would have things cost the same price, just converted to a different currency. So the above DVD's would have suggested retail prices of 2735 yen ~ 3285 yen. Actual retail price (end price) would be about 10-20% cheaper, as they are in the United States. DVDs in this price range would be the exact same price as they are in North America. Exchange rate doesn't make things more expensive. But, that's not the case, standard DVDs in Japan cost 3000 ~ 5000 yen at retail (end price), Anime typically costs 4000-6000 yen. None of these prices are for expensive "special edition" DVDs btw. 6000 yen = $55 btw. There's a lot of reasons that DVDs are more expensive in Japan, but the exchange rate certainly isn't one of them. -t Last edited by Tempest on Sat Nov 29, 2003 7:49 pm; edited 2 times in total |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
cyrax777
Posts: 1825 Location: the desert |
|
|||||||
|
INflation and cost of living is what i meant to put. it seems like 50 to us becouse were not making YEN.
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
bluechibi
Posts: 137 |
|
|||||||
|
It's nice to see more people with a better attitude towards fansubs, usually in communities you're shouted down if you condemn fansubs. I think everyone likes to get something for nothing, when you look at big music or film companies, and you see them as evil money hungry corporations that have so much money it's laughable. I hope people don't have that opinion of the companies that make these animes. You'll have to ask Tempest, I wouldn't think these studios have enormous budgets, a lot of what I have heard is quite suprising on what they get back.
Perhaps it's just Japanese politeness, I dunno. If they have to make more requests like this then good for them, their work is not easy and should get a lot of support from the fans, but not this kind of support, watching their work for free contibutes nothing to them at all, it isn't going to help them break even or help fund their next project (or fund the distributer to release more titles). If you must download fansubs just download the first one or two episodes to get an idea of what it's like, if you're interested then get the DVD, if not then oh well next anime then. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
davispike
Posts: 24 |
|
|||||||
|
[quote="Cookie"]
Hehe, come on now... how many japanese people don't have cable + have high speed internet instead and watch fansubs? I don't live in japan, but I would guess that EVERYONE that has high speed internet has cable. For those that don't catch the relationship here, if a japanese dude has cable, then fansubs are probably a waste? Why? Well it will be much higher quality for a Japanese person to record the show himself onto video than for him to download a fansub with ugly english subtitles on it  So fansubs don't hurt the japanese anime industry. I mean come on, if you got the net, you got cable. That's how it is.
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
davispike
Posts: 24 |
|
|||||||
Where is the correlation between 10,000 people seeing it and no one taping it? I don't believe that. Someone is going to tape it or not; it doesn't matter how many people are simultaniously watching it.
See, that's the pickle we're all in. How much is cable? $30/month? Probably around there for basic stations which carry anime. So lets say 30 shows air a year which are semi-watchable. $30x12=$360. Now, if anime companies in the USA had their way, we would have to pay to see the shows on DVD if we wanted to see them. That means... lets see, ~7DVDs per show, * 30 shows = 210 DVDs. The average cost of a DVD lets say is $15 bucks. That comes down to ~$3150. That's quite differnt than $360. Granted, you do get it on DVD but why should we be forced to buy the DVD to see a show? Forget fansubs, heck, broadcast all the new anime in Japan at the same time in the USA and I'll gladly pay for that cable channel. Also a lot of the R1 DVDs are pretty cruddy (if you compare them to the R2 DVDs; but that's another topic). But yeah, you are 100% right, no broadcaster rights go back to the anime company in the world of fansubs.
Well, at the moment, probably a lot of anime viewers, maybe even half? watch fansubs in the USA. Now when a person decides not to watch it on TV, is it really because they have it on their computer? Or rather is it because they have already seen it fansubbed? I'd say the latter. These types of situations don't hurt anime DVD sales in the USA. Why? Because when someone says this, they don't care about quality. You know, DVD has greater quality than fansub. And a lot of DVD buyers want quality, so they buy the stuff on DVD. But when a person says I won't watch it on tv because I already have the fansub, they are implying one of two things: (1) they don't care about the quality, and so they wouldn't buy it on DVD to begin with; they just want to see the show; or (2) they do care about quality, but the show isn't good enough to be worth buying on DVD. So, in either situation, the anime dvd sales industry in the USA does not suffer one bit; or the UK for that matter. But I'll fully admit, yes, with less people watching it on TV, there are also less people discussing each episode as it airs on TV, and thus less of their "friends" are being drawn into the show. A quick example of this would be, my brother got me into anime. I came in and watched an episode of *cringe* DBZ on TV. I love it! Now, if my bro had decided not to watch it on TV because he had either already seen it fansubbed, or didn't feel the show was worthy of buying DVDs for, then I would have missed that opportunity to be introduced to anime. So yes, with less people watching it, the anime industry in the USA or UK is not as large as it could be.
You hit the nail on the head. Promoting in my book means simultanious broadcasting in all countries you want to make $ from. Otherwise, it's your own fault and you shouldn't blame fansubs. The anime companies need to realize this fast. The problem is, the USA companies make a bundle on DVDs at the moment because many people that want to see shows first have to buy the DVD to see the show and don't get the privlidge to see it on TV. So the market here in the USA isn't like it is in Japan. So for Japanese companies to adequaltely promote it, they will have to reduce the profits that the USA companies make from DVD sales, because everyone knows that at first, less people will buy the DVD since they have seen the show on TV. But as time progresses, more people will watch anime, more cable broadcasters will host it, and that will lead to simply more DVD sales in the long run. Oh well... EDIT: and just a side note. Another reason I don't think people should be forced to buy DVDs in the USA first is because, and this will offend many anime companies here, Anime DVDs made in the USA are crap compared to their Japanese counterparts. The discs in japan are all DVD-9, using a much higher bitrate than typical Anime DVDs here. They are also professionally created. You won't find burn marks or what not on their discs like you find on ours. And most of all, the Japanese folks spend quite a deal of time making sure the video quality is superb for most releases, whereas here in the USA, the companies are *stuck* with whatever the Japanese give us, so if they give us a mono audio track, or a shoddy video master, then that's what we get stuck with. Sucks eh? |
||||||||
|
||||||||
Kogure
 Posts: 4 |
|
|||||||
|
The producers of Munto acquired a license to distribute in the US with Central Park Media. Of course they asked for the fansubs to be stopped. Most legit fansubbers will stop distribution of their titles once they are licensed in the US.
Really not sure where this thread was heading, but the original news message made it sound like this was something out of the ordinary. I don't think Central Park Media has made an official announcement of the license and that's why the fansubbers didn't know about it. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
EveAngel
Posts: 1 Location: Finland |
|
|||||||
|
People have been making good points so far, and I agree on some and some I don't.
One thing that bothers me, is the concept of Japanese economy and it's comparisons. I'll use an example to make it clearer. The Euro has been climbing up and is now more valuable than the US dollar. This is severely hurting the European companies, as our products will be much more expensive to import. Also, the reason why Sweden hasn't joined in the Euro, is because their currency is so cheap that they can sell more products than European companies. Thus, as the same logic is applied to Japanese economy, they are actually making more money from the licences, because they can sell more for cheaper price! So, the weakening US dollar is hurting everybody, as it's currently the main currency for trading. People can buy less and European products appear to be more expensive. Phew. Also, the reason for anime being so expensive in Japan, is just because they have much higher living standarts there. Japanese people have p2p networks too, though the western "audience" is currently so unaware of them. It's ridicolous to see some groups distributing "raws" which are taken from these networks, taking credits for themselves. So they don't NEED our much more crappier fansubs, as they can download HDTV-quality episodes of the net, from next door. For me, fansubs are the only way to watch anime, as Finnish tv doesn't show anime. Or does, but it's only Digimon/Pokemon, which is just pure marketing move. My point being, for people who live outside the US and don't get anime on dvd or tv, fansubs are sadly the only way to go. Unless you want to learn japanese. You can also think about the reasons why region codes are so easy to break, or why people mod their machines. Before we can get "rid" of fansubs, we need to free entertainment. The MP3 stores are showing us the way, and as high speed internet penetration rises all over the world, maybe someday we all will be able to get the newest series on our telly by our OWN demand and get our own programming. We still have long way to go, but digital/pay-per-view-channels are paving the way for this slowly but steady. Until then, I'll just download stuff, buy the dvds if possible and delete the episodes after I have bought the series on dvd. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
Kalium
 Posts: 84 Location: Michigan |
|
|||||||
|
I should probably point out that AJ seems to have nearly collapsed of late. This is due to several things, including the fact that Killshok can't do much anymore (comes from being stuck on dialup), they lost their website (the registration expired and they can't reach the registree), and more.
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Chiaki Nozomi
Posts: 2 |
|
|||||||
|
First of all, I download fansubs.
Every new series that comes out, I download. I usually watch the first three episodes and decide which ones are worthwhile to continue. When the series finishes, I either - A. Like the series and pray for it to be licensed or B. Say, "That was a good show" and never think of it again. Frankly, I hate wasting money. And I often don't obsess about a show long enough to buy it. Before you go and rant on me let me say that right now I'm collecting - Super Gals!, Haibane Renmei, Twelve Kingdoms, Full Metal Panic, and Witch Hunter Robin, plus about ten manga series. Most shows I saw last season (Scrapped Princess, Last Exile, ect.) I liked, but didn't like enough to want to buy the series afterword. Most of the series I own that I didn't watch fansubbed are collecting dust because they're a good watch once, but not twice or thrice. The only series I would think of buying currently is Princess Tutu. (for the love of God, license this!!) TV? Not all shows are broadcast on television. And honestly, I want to see Noir and RahXephon, but I don't want to see it bad enough to pay 30$ a disc. In other words, I fully support fansubs. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Steventheeunuch
|
|
|||||||
Umm, not all DVDs in Japan are put onto DVD-9's. Check www.CDjapan.co.jp, you'll see that this is true with movies and the like, but not always with series. And no, usually unless it's an old show, they don't have to carefully tend to video/audio quality because its being made from Digital masters. In the case of older shows, they simply don't want Japanese fans reverse importing so they don't buy the R2 boxed sets and whatever (Much like FUNimations DBZ DVDs not having Japanese audio for the next ep preveiws, or Dragonball only having the one opening and closing themes). But eh, whoever said art was easy (or cheap for that matter). As for something someone said about ADV's DVDs, I've found most of them to be around the $17 mark or so from dvdpacific.com. Despite having a credit card or not, it's still a top way to go. Plus, if US anime fans have anything to complain about, it pales into comparison to the Australian fanbase, compromised mostly of annoying elitists. Not only that, we have one company doing yu gi oh, one company whos doing X TV at the moment (six DVD release, but as per usual screwing it up hardcore), and Madman entertainment who distribute various tokyopop.bandai/adv/blah blah titles every month, and more often than not theres delays and screw ups (17+ releases a month), AND on top of that they get a lot of chaff about interlacing the video despite the fact that in order to get it into PAL they HAVE to interlace their 30fps NTSC masters (remember, the same thing with reverse importation). Not only that they're suffering from people importing from the US because of the state of the dollar. It costs $25 australian for a volume of noir or rahx or any other adv title, where as here it'd be 30-35 bucks. People still however don't understand how this sort of market works, and thats why they come in, guns a-blazing and thinking its the exact same as hollywood DVDs and other releases despite the fact these DVDs make raughtly a percent sales wise as other DVDs. But I geuss... stuff what the hell am I on about? |
||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group