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blueharlequin



Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 81
Location: Las Vegas, NV (No, we don't live in hotels here)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:10 pm Reply with quote
kyokun703 wrote:
Oh lordy. You probably shouldn't have told me this... *runs off to Amazon to look at Happy Hippo prices...*

Wow, I just looked these up on Amazon also. OMG, they are the Kinder brand made by Ferrero. I see a chocolate binge in my future.

As for Pocky, I like all the off-the-wall flavors. Two of the best (IMHO) are Lemon Cheesecake and Murasaki Imo. I can't find the cheesecake flavor anywhere, I think it might have been a limited edition that summer. As for the Murasaki Imo (purple potato) I'm half Filipino, its Ube for goodness sake! YUM.

I am partial to Meiji chocolate as well. Those Apollo chocolates are good for making cookies. And as one poster commented about her BF I am also partial to Kinoko No Yama (Chocolate Coated Mushroom Shaped Cookies). But my favorite Meiji chocolate is Coffee Beat. Ah, two of my favorite things, coffee and chocolate in a cute little bean shape.

Bianchi wrote:
I've never heard/read anyone say "meh" before, but I find it really annoying now.

My 18 yo cousin says it all the time. I get the urge to smack him upside the head every time as well
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blueharlequin



Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 81
Location: Las Vegas, NV (No, we don't live in hotels here)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:14 pm Reply with quote
Moomintroll wrote:
Humans are omnivorous but evolved to primarily eat plant foods with meat as an addition to the diet. That's why we're not particularly good at digesting red meat (relative to animals for whom it's a more important part of their natural diet).

I always though that we couldn't digest red meat well because we cook it . . . I don't recall wolves firing up the grill before eating
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:32 pm Reply with quote
blueharlequin wrote:
Moomintroll wrote:
Humans are omnivorous but evolved to primarily eat plant foods with meat as an addition to the diet. That's why we're not particularly good at digesting red meat (relative to animals for whom it's a more important part of their natural diet).

I always though that we couldn't digest red meat well because we cook it . . . I don't recall wolves firing up the grill before eating


Actually this has to do with enzymes in your digestive system; carnivorous animals are better-equipped with such things are are able to actually digest proteins in much larger batches. Humans on the other hand can only consume about a fist of protein in a sitting.
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blueharlequin



Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 81
Location: Las Vegas, NV (No, we don't live in hotels here)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:39 pm Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
Actually this has to do with enzymes in your digestive system; carnivorous animals are better-equipped with such things are are able to actually digest proteins in much larger batches. Humans on the other hand can only consume about a fist of protein in a sitting.

Hmm, that's interesting. Guess that explains why the food pyramid recommends a "deck of cards" size serving of meat. Too bad for me, I like beef the best, and in a town where a prime rib dinner is $7.99, it's hard to resist.

Funny how we went from candy to meat. Almost like totally opposite ends of the spectrum. Speaking of which, has anyone mentioned Yan-Yan yet? If they did, I missed it . . .
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Fallout2man



Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 271
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:07 pm Reply with quote
Moomintroll wrote:
Whilst that obviously applies to TVs and radios, I fail to see how it applies to parrots. Parrots are sentient (obviously - look up the word) and are quite capable of cognitive thought (as demonstrated by their ability to learn and to solve problems). And a creature capable of cognitive thought has intelligence by definition.


Can a parrot tell me it is aware of itself and its existence? Can a parrot tell me it understands what death is verbally? Can a parrot do calculus, algebra, or hell, long division, on its own? Not to say they aren't smart animals, they're very smart animals, but that's all they are.

I have a very firm gap established between animals and humans and that is the ability to either understand it exists and that it is a being (sentience) or the ability to do very complicated tasks that require a lot of intelligent thought such as say, complicated math problems or spacial logic or reasoning.

So far the only animal I've seen express that are some forms of primates like the ones we've trained to use those primitive speech keyboards.
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ruro niko



Joined: 18 Jul 2007
Posts: 109
Location: Tennessee
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:25 pm Reply with quote
Fallout2man wrote:
Can a parrot tell me it is aware of itself and its existence? Can a parrot tell me it understands what death is verbally? Can a parrot do calculus, algebra, or hell, long division, on its own? Not to say they aren't smart animals, they're very smart animals, but that's all they are.

Not all people can do that.
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Fallout2man



Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 271
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:49 pm Reply with quote
ruro niko wrote:

Not all people can do that.


As shocking as it sounds I wouldn't consider people with severe mental impairments truly human. In the end both animals and people are just hunks of flesh. We're all made of the same crude matter. What differentiates humanity is our minds. Our ability to think, reason, solve problems, and communicate makes us unique and it's what got us where we are. Without that, anything else is just a mere hunk of flesh.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:01 pm Reply with quote
Fallout2man wrote:
ruro niko wrote:

Not all people can do that.


As shocking as it sounds I wouldn't consider people with severe mental impairments truly human. In the end both animals and people are just hunks of flesh. We're all made of the same crude matter. What differentiates humanity is our minds. Our ability to think, reason, solve problems, and communicate makes us unique and it's what got us where we are. Without that, anything else is just a mere hunk of flesh.


A mind is just a CPU, according to your definition. You might like to explore some Descartes, David Hume, and John Locke, and then return to the question.
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Moomintroll



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1600
Location: Nottingham (UK)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:25 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
Your "vast bulk" seems to be limited to a few hundred years ago when most animals were considered the porperty of the lord of the manor and to hunt even a rabbit was considered pouching, a hanging offence, or "tranported" to the "colonies", when it has been archeologically proven that hominids have hunted animals and eaten their flesh long before that.


I disagree. I didn't say nobody ate meat - I said rarely. That's a view supported by the historical evidence available. Most people (at least in urban areas) did eat meat but they did so occasionally. I'm sure I can dig out the relevant historical and archaelogical texts from my library if you really want me to. You'll note, I'm sure, that I also specified "Western" societies (though any non-Western largely agrarian society would also fit) - there are certainly other peoples (Inuit for example) with very heavily meat based diets.

Mohawk52 wrote:
We all don't have K9 teeth for nout. Wink


Quite true. But the fact that our canines are so weedy relative to those of some other omnivores (e.g. brown bears, certain species of primate, badgers and so on) does highlight the fact that meat has historically served as an occasional meal of opportunity rather than as our dietary foundation.

dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
I just don't understand how vegetarianism is so impressive.


To whom are you responding? Nobody here has attempted to indicate that their particular choice is "impressive" or to foist their ethical choices onto anybody else. It's a personal decision. You don't hold with it? Guess what? You don't have to.

Quote:
WRONG!


Sigh. There is nothing quite like seeing some pillock on an internet site emphatically giving what he imagines is the ultimate coup de grace to an argument nobody but he himself has made.

Quote:
If you don't want to be a good human being, then don't waste.


That might have been more impressive if you'd checked it made sense before posting it.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8156
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:51 pm Reply with quote
Moomintroll wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
Your "vast bulk" seems to be limited to a few hundred years ago when most animals were considered the porperty of the lord of the manor and to hunt even a rabbit was considered pouching, a hanging offence, or "tranported" to the "colonies", when it has been archeologically proven that hominids have hunted animals and eaten their flesh long before that.


I disagree. I didn't say nobody ate meat
I didn't say you did.
Quote:
- I said rarely. That's a view supported by the historical evidence available. Most people (at least in urban areas) did eat meat but they did so occasionally. I'm sure I can dig out the relevant historical and archaelogical texts from my library if you really want me to.
Can you find the ones that give a reason why they did so occasionally? Was it by choice, or by force of having to purchase it, but not having the means to do so?
Quote:
You'll note, I'm sure, that I also specified "Western" societies (though any non-Western largely agrarian society would also fit)
Therefore no need to restrict this to just Western societies then.
Quote:
- there are certainly other peoples (Inuit for example) with very heavily meat based diets.
well I'm sure there were vegetarian Inuit but I guess they all died out early on.

Quote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
We all don't have K9 teeth for nout. Wink


Quite true. But the fact that our canines are so weedy relative to those of some other omnivores (e.g. brown bears, certain species of primate, badgers and so on) does highlight the fact that meat has historically served as an occasional meal of opportunity rather than as our dietary foundation.
So much for Darwin then.
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Moomintroll



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1600
Location: Nottingham (UK)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:52 pm Reply with quote
Fallout2man wrote:
Can a parrot tell me it is aware of itself and its existence?


Is this an accepted scientific measure of cognitive ability or sentience?

Quote:
Can a parrot tell me it understands what death is verbally?


Is this an accepted scientific measure of cognitive ability or sentience?

Quote:
Can a parrot do calculus, algebra, or hell, long division, on its own?


Is this an accepted scientific measure of cognitive ability or sentience?

Quote:
Not to say they aren't smart animals, they're very smart animals, but that's all they are.


I hate to be the one to break this to you but by every biological standard, people are animals too.
We have some unique characteristics, of course...but then so does, say, a duck billed platypus.

Quote:
I have a very firm gap established between animals and humans


That's all very nice, I'm sure, but when one is conversing with others it does rather help to use the universal definitions rather than the one you just made up in your head.
Otherwise, communication is liable to suffer, wouldn't you say?

Quote:
and that is the ability to either understand it exists and that it is a being (sentience)


None of the things you have outlined are necessary to illustrate an understanding of "being". On the contrary, any animal that operates within a contextual social network (as opposed to the groupings of insects and such) is inherantly displaying such an ability.
Observations of primates, rats, dogs and elephants (and, I dare say, various other varieties of creature) have long since proven a sense of self beyond any reasonable doubt.

Quote:
or the ability to do very complicated tasks that require a lot of intelligent thought such as say, complicated math problems or spacial logic or reasoning.


Most vertebrates are capable of demonstrating spacial logic and reasoning. Even goldfish according to an experiment mentioned by Stephen Budiansky (in If They're So Smart, How Come They Aren't Rich?).

Quote:
So far the only animal I've seen express that are some forms of primates like the ones we've trained to use those primitive speech keyboards.


Speech isn't remotely relevant in determining a creature's intelligence, sentience or cognizance. Humans were, after all, sentient and intelligent prior to their development of language.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:11 pm Reply with quote
To Moomintroll:

When I said I didn't understand how vegetarianism was so impressive, that was a statement, not a response. I am allowed to make statements, right? I thought it was relevant I begin there and get to explaining why I thought so.

I can see why what I said was frustrating; in that you think I'm a pillock. Well I wasn't calling you names. My feelings...
Look, I get its hard to distinguish between arguments and explanations, but could you have considered my words on the whole instead of berating my "coup de grace"? If you want to beat up my ethos, go ahead, I can't disagree with that. But for a pillock I feel kind of cheated that you took an argument you thought you saw and took it way out of context.

In short, please actually look at what I'm talking about and verbally abuse me for THAT. If you're going to attack someone then at least get it right.

EDIT: my logos is open to criticism as well :p


Last edited by dewlwieldthedarpachief on Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Moomintroll



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1600
Location: Nottingham (UK)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:12 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
I didn't say you did.


True. But you did suggest it only held during the feudal period. That's what I was contesting.

Quote:
Was it by choice, or by force of having to purchase it, but not having the means to do so?


It's a combination of culture and economics / practicality. The fact that regular consumption of meat was beyond the reach of most people made meat more desirable culturally (leading to over consumption amongst the upper classes and an even greater scarcity amongst the lower classes as a result of the increased demand).
What proportion of typical pre-modern diets would have been meat had it been commonly available (and thus not socially desirable) is impossible to say.

Quote:
well I'm sure there were vegetarian Inuit but I guess they all died out early on.


Nah - they probably just evolved into the prototypes of those annoying people you meet who say "well I'm a vegetarian but I do eat fish"... Wink

Quote:
So much for Darwin then.


Hardly. In terms of diet, we initially evolved to the extent that we needed to. It's just that a few thousand years of civilisation and industry has altered our eating habits faster than natural selection can keep up.
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Moomintroll



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1600
Location: Nottingham (UK)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:25 pm Reply with quote
Hmmph. Zac sows the wind and I'm stupid enough to reap the whirlwind... Rolling Eyes

dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
To Moomintroll:

When I said I didn't understand how vegetarianism was so impressive, that was a statement, not a response. I am allowed to make statements, right? I thought it was relevant I begin there and get to explaining why I thought so.


You can state what you want. But if you open your "statement" (more of an aggressively stated argument really) in the way that you did, you do rather leave yourself open to a negative response.

Quote:
I can see why what I said was frustrating; in that you think I'm a pillock. Well I wasn't calling you names. My feelings...


I should point out that in English slang there is no milder a term than pillock. If I was trying to upset you then, believe me, that wouldn't have been my expression of choice.

Quote:
Look, I get its hard to distinguish between arguments and explanations, but could you have considered my words on the whole instead of berating my "coup de grace"?


You did precede your argument by shouting "WRONG!" at anybody who might have the temerity to disagree with you.
This is not the way to win friends and influence people.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:44 pm Reply with quote
Okay professor let's back up:

For an English language expert you sorely lack in your ability to distinguish sarcasm and explanations. I appreciate your advice on winning friends and influencing people, I'll be sure to integrate that and pillock into my life. And I mean that sincerely.

You've demonstrated twice now that you're willing to totally ignore the content of what I'm saying so you can tell me how much you disapprove of the structure of my argument (which isn't an argument). It wasn't a statement either, I opened with one. It was an explanation. You know, so I could explain what I was thinking. I invite an actual rebuttal to that, in fact I might cry tears of joy. I don't care about being right, or making friends, or influencing people. I care about someone responding to what I said, rather than the way I said it.

But thanks. EDIT: I don't think you were trying to, you know, be a prick.
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