Forum - View topicEditorial: An Open Letter to the Industry
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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 If authors want to give away their creations for free, good on ya mate. But if mangakas are depending on their work to pay their mortgage and put food on table, they better not give up the day job with atitudes like that one above, and bizarrely from someone allegedly in the same industry. He obviously is doing it for the fun of it, supporting income not required, which is great. I mean how many people can say they work for the fun of it? I certainly can't. No wonder hardly any new talent want to work in the manga and anime industry as a career in Japan, which will have a knock-on affect for the future of it on us all. That is what I'm fighting against. Make fansubs legal. Any questions?
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missing_soul
Posts: 44 |
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You want to get money, income, revenue, fee, no?
Then you have to find the means to let people buy your product even if your fanbase could ill afford it right now. You can't lower prices, because of the Japanese license owners, you can't go after the subbers because you haven't got enough lobby power and actual legislation and hardware won't let you pull it off. You can't kill off the fanbase either. For heaven's shake, you should then find a viable business plan. One that lets the fans pay when they could - after getting a job. Anyway you pay your license fee once, and at least a few companies are still afloat and got licenses to use. Don't lose the licenses. Money paid six years from hence is the same then money paid right now, because you can get loan from a bank. It's just like a reverse assurance plan. And the fans will be happy, because they are collecting points they could (have to ) buy off later while watching anime. Japanese will be happy, because you give out encrypted content in the States stopping the free downloading activity witch hurts badly their own primary market. You still has to stop the downloading but there's a difference between being the bad guys or the honest guys when you engage in that activity. Also the banks would be happy to lend a hand. And you'll be all rich in six year from now. Where's the problem? OFF sorry I sent it as a PM too, my bad ON |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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People over 18 aren't kids. By definition. |
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ichido reichan
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Justin.
From a fellow vhs fansubber..... Remember the ol' days when we said "I hope japan somedays air programming with english subs right off the bat to everyone in the world?" including anime, it used to be science fiction back then.... Now the reality is much "worse" for the terms, not even that, but a couple of small anime fans are doing a job that the same corporations are not willing to do. I can't get out of my head that line "There must be an inexpensive way to watch anime" but japan is already against letting their material be distributes easily, I thought It was bad when japan released the fabled $900.00 hokuto no ken boxed set, and the hong kong release was only $120.00 with so-so english subs, which doesnt bother at all, then, if you have the patience and broadband to do it, you can download the entire series with awesome quality and perfect english grammar for free...Fansub outcasted the same pirates that were proffiting from it. Oh, Internet, I hardly knew ye" OTAKULAND will never exist at this point... |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I believe you are trying, but what you seem to be trying to accomplish is to get everyone to buy DVDs when not everyone wants them. I like DVDs so I buy them, but I don't necessarily want a DVD for every series I only want to see once. I think your only issue here is you feel that you have failed because you can't convince everyone like me that we should buy absolutely everything we watch on DVD. I'll admit that you can't convince me to do that, it's not something I can afford to do even if I wanted to. And actually, I do want to. I just don't have the money to accomplish it. Not downloading won't help the industry in my case.
I don't think you are necessarily correct, but who knows? Let me give a counterexample. Most Linux kernel developers are largely paid by the major players (IBM, Novell, Redhat, Sun, etc.) even though what they actually develop is completely free, and many people aren't paying for it. These companies do sell their own distributions of Linux, but there are all kinds of free ones out there (like Gentoo, which I use). They work for something that is free, and which download/etc. is expected. They still do expect to get paid though, either because what they do is of value to their companies (the systems run linux) or because it's a product they sell (like redhat). Entertainment has a lot of differences, but at the core there are people who believe it has value and they should be the ones paying. They aren't companies that have to pay employees, and entertainment doesn't need "support services" (where Redhat makes it's money), but that doesn't mean that they will not pay if they are shown why they need to do so. This being said, if the only methods of payment available to them are purchasing DVDs that they don't even want, it shouldn't surprise people that they don't pay. I think this is what the article here hopes to correct. |
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Steventheeunuch
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You are not the industry that is being addressed, therefore you carry just as much weight as everyone else. Not that I am agreeing or disagreeing, just thought that bubble needed bursting. |
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missing_soul
Posts: 44 |
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It appears everyone - by definiton of the industry - is a kid until he or she get a large amount of money to spend on anime. I just apply the definition. |
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mithrandiryod
 Posts: 11 |
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In truth, I don't know what I would do without my fansubs. I love to watch Anime the day or week after it airs in Japan, (I guess I'm overly spoiled). But as a fan, who used to not have much money to spend on anime, I used to still purchase anime with whatever money I could obtain, however I was, and still am, very selective about what I bought. It had to be from a dubbing company that I like, and it had to have the uncut, japanese version, on it.
I am in favor of the industry taking the fansubers jobs from them. I would pay for a service (if it was truly legal and funded the Japanese Right holders and artists) to watch subbed anime a week from the air date. I would also support the industry putting ads in the show. As long as I still got to watch, (heck if they wanted to sell it to DirecTV in the states I'd buy the channel). My point is this, I would pay for the product, the groups that are putting out quality subs and work hard to put out the anime that we love, put it out for free. There is no other pay alternative that the industry in Japan has presented that I can watch. I support the works when the reach the states. Why shouldn't I watch Fansubs? These days, I will watch the anime, but I also support the series in the states as it comes out. I'm not about to stop watching my fansubs that are up to date in japan just to wait two years before the states catch up and I can resume watching. Why should we (The loyal fans) be punished because we want to watch our show, and support it when it actually arives in the states. The fansubers are the reason, half if not ALL the boarderline shows make it into the US anyways, because they expose the shows to an audience that might not have fallen in love with it had they not seen it. |
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Moomintroll
Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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I see. And you're getting this industry definition from...where? |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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Money paid six months from now, let alone six years from now, most assuredly isn't the same as money paid now. First there's interest, let's assume 7% (compound of course). If your profit margin is 50% of revenue (pretty damn good), you spend $50 to make $100. But if you're paying interest for 6 years on that $50, your expenditures will come out to $75, so you'll only make $25 on your initial expenditure. Not that bad, but anime companies certainly aren't making that kind of profit margin. Secondly, companies rely on the revenue to provide operating capital for the next project. A very solvent company might have 6-12 months operating capital on hand, others might only have 2 months. Every delay in your accounts receivable will diminish your cash on hand and eventually start making it very hard to run your business. To give you a real-wold example, many companies give their clients a 2% discount if the clients pay in under 7-10 days. These are the very same clients that are supposed to pay in 21-60 days. That's how much of a hurry companies are in to get their return on investment. Even a very solvent company wants its return now, so that it can re-invest that return into new projects. Companies most definitely do look many years down the road when planning their businesses, but only a few types of companies (ie: R&D companies) invest in projects that won't see significant cash flow for 6 years, and trust me, they expect a much better return than the anime industry gets. Whatsmore, how many DVDs do you think 6-year-old movies and TV series sell? With certain occasional exceptions, the answer is "almost none." In six years, fans of today's hit show will be fans of a new hit show. As for the banks, no bank will lend any company money if that company doesn't expect to start paying the bank back for 6 years. When it comes to bank credit, as opposed to investment funds, most banks give asset based credit. If you have $100,000 in accounts receivable, they'll extend you $75,000 in credit, but you have to start paying interest right away, and they'll review your AR regularly. If your company owns property, you can take a loan or mortgage on that property. (Real-estate is pretty much the only thing banks will give long term loans on). If you don't have assets, and you want money, you need to look for investment capital, in which case you better be prepared to give away a chunk of your company, and if it's venture capital, you have to show them a plan to either sell the company for more money or go public within 12-48 months.... not 6 years. -t |
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ilikehotaznz
Posts: 28 |
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The problem facing anime is not piracy or fansubbing. The problem is a distribution and business model that does not harness the power of the internet. Anime is larger than it's ever been in the US and Europe, and the problem isn't the fans. The problem is the antiquated chain of distribution.
Most anime is television, and television should inherently be free, and supported by advertising. With new services such as Joost, this is now possible. In 2004, MIT undergraduate Mark Pesce gave a seminar at the Australian Film Television and Radio School about the future of international television distribution in the age of P2P. He explains that by streamlining the antequated chain of television distribution, one is able to use digital distribtion as a viable economic business model. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1720068211869162779 The current model for television distribution is... Producer > Distributor > Broadcaster > Advertiser > Viewer The model that Mark proposes is... Producer > Advertiser > Viewer Because of digital distribution, the economics of scarcity have gone away. Either television producers will adapt to the changing market or they will die. And I don't see why they wouldn't want to adopt, because this will finally free the small anime companies from the shackels of television broadcasters and distributors. |
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Tyrenol
Posts: 398 Location: Northern California |
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ANN is probably one of the better known web sites that gather news about anime and nearly everything based around it. The same could be said about its rival AnimeonDVD (which I nicknamed "AnimeOnVHSTape" because, after it killed the video tape in effigy, much of its base seem to root loudly for its return via single-language DVD releases).
You guys are at the forefront; this should be said. The anime fanbase needs to put more money back into this system and make less excuses as to why it's not happening. I read the editorials: It's easier to download for free than to wait indefinitely for a localized release. Never anyone's mind that much of the anime coming from Japan had been lowering in all-around quality as of late. Maybe the younger and newer anime fans might not see it; but the older ones will. Shows like Negima and Lyrical Nanoha where the series shown on TV are filled with mistakes, the DVD version will still have mistakes, and the sequals become more "moe." And with all arguments about the theme aside, "moe" becomes too cultural and unwatchable for us Westerners. What did Arthur Smith (Gonzo / GDHI) say about the anime downloaders? "If a shopkeeper runs after someone who has stolen an item from his shop and someone else trips the shopkeeper up to stop him from catching the shoplifter…that person is also responsible for stealing." I wanted to make sure a show like "Evangelion," "Ranma 1/2," and "Girls Bravo" never hit the US shores officially and ever again. Unlike Japan, many in the West (mainly the US) do not wish to be reminded about weak we are as oppose to how strong we can become. I'm sorry if I don't have the charts and graphs to back up what I say, and I wish I could get a reliable link to the list of anime on Videoscan. But there are two facts acknowledged by even the best companies: "Dubs sell. Moe doesn't." So yeah. I'm on the side of Mr. Smith here since (I think) some of what Gonzo released to the US are relatively good. I go over to 4chan, and I get it here as well... I hear a lot of booing when it comes to companies like Gonzo. I know the reasons, but the alternatives are not good enough. So why do I say, "You need to put money back into the system?" Because it'll give companies the monetary power to create something better. Atleast, that's how I thought it worked. Ever since the spread of the idealism over "free anime," I've seen too many titles from Japan utilizing the same theme. Mainly, it's the misandery where male leads are too weak to defend themselves. Either that, they're non-existent, they're self-inserts and place-holder, they're recipients of "physical gags," or they're the type who get bad ends like Makoto from "School Days." And then there are the dating-sim-based anime; the ones that all look the same. Series by Kyoto Animation tend to stand out, series that feature some guy dressing up like a girl stand out... In fact; said crossdress BECOMES the series. Other than that, time could've been spend creating something else. And then you have the xenophobia against the West. It's subtle. But it can be found in shows like Mitsuo Fukuda's Gundam series and YuGiOh via "Bandit Kieth." And of course, when the bunch of drunken "gaijin-tachi" rode on Japan's commuter rails the day before Halloween, xenophobia for the West had really reared its ugly head. And, my pet peeve, there's the difficulty of getting adult / hentai anime uncensored into this country. Since a title will end up being downloaded the next day, of course companies will shut their doors and not give companies any more uncensored titles when they know that they're not going to get any money back. It's not like we and they are not making any successful strides between creator, licensor, and fandom. Funimation and Viz are on top of the R1 release "food chain" where their products are flying off the shelves and through the mail system. Whatever people say about downloading, many fans of anime are just like fans of music; you feel better once you actually purchased a physical product as oppposed to grabbing it from off the web for free. As stated before, there needs to be an alternative to free downloading. And yet, after seeing Geneon shut its doors and retreated with its collective tail between its legs, let's not do what they did. Besides; atleast Gonzo had reached out and realized that the market outside of Asia is different. The "gear shift" on the other side of the pond is set to "forward" and not "backwards." So yes. The first thing to do is to set up some more communication between the fanbase and the anime creators. Not just "We went to the cons and heard what people had said." A lot of people can't afford going to conventions; being lucky enough to buy around 3 anime titles per month. Also; the fanbase MUST have the first decision on what should be licensed. They days of hooting and hollaring over Japan's most popular title being licensed, only for said title to fall flat on its face the next 5 months, are outdated and should be over. Anime is an international phenominon now. And "exclusion" is not cool anymore. ("Moe" is still considered a hard idea to translate to the West.) Do your best to include everybody without alienation. Let people know that companies will create better anime if everyone chips in and (directly) hands them around $30.00. Nodoby asked why the "Power Rangers" had became so popular in this country. I always thought that it was the mainly American cast as oppose to the (I'm Sorry.) dull-looking mainly Asian cast. 
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Shii
 Posts: 110 |
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This conversation is stupid. Let the existing production companies die if they can't adapt; a dead market won't stop new, crazy Japanese businesses from trying innovative ideas like direct-to-Internet distribution, nor will it put a halt on the immense amount of creativity in the Japanese manga world where new anime are born.
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RedTako21
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I can relate to the younger non-japan anime fans and their view of anime as free. I'm old enough to have been there for the end of the VHS fandom era and watched the internet open up new doors that I have no doubt helped shaped the anime universe in both fandom and the industry. My fandom is what makes me buy DVDs of series I truly enjoy and it was gained from the VHS era. But I'm young enough to have acquired the mentality of the younger generation. Call us, the younger/newer otakus, spoiled or just call us jealous of our asian brothers overseas. Because that's what we our and like the letter has pointed out, until we can get decent quality anime almost as fast as if we were there watching it in japan, there will be illegal fansubs and there downloads. I still buy DVDs but only of shows I actually want.
And that's just the thing. Fansubs are our Television here on the other side of the pond. Asking fans to dump off $30-60 for 2-4 episodes of a show we've never seen before is crazy no matter when you did it. Now a days you can get entire seasons averaging around 13-27 episodes of US shows for that money plus bonus material. Anime fans our now being expected to pay that much for 3 episodes and bonus materials equates to clean intros and endings and trailers? That is a clear sign of the industry living in the past. That is the spoiled nature of otakus today and basically the world in general. And you can't forget how jealous we get. Japan only has to pay their cable or satilette bills and they can least see if the show was good enough and whether or not they liked it. They at least get a chance to see what they may or may not buy. Fansubs our the equalivent in the eyes of young otakus. Older fans get a chance to sample animes before spending their hard earn money on questionable series and they get to see the at the same time it comes out. Becoming part of the Buzz rather then hearing about it months, even years later. And hearing old news about a good/bad is news too late. And thank God I did have a chance to view some series. I've made regrettable purchases in the past and would have made more if I didn't have fansubs. I know my grammar, spelling and writing skills have sucked up to this point (lack of sleep does that to you) but the truth is, like the letter stated: Until there is a way we can see anime as quick as a good fansub group and within a week of its original airing, you'll probably see no end to all the illegal fansubbing. All though dubbings will having their own issues to deal with, the idea of releasing legal subtitled anime within a few days on television isn't a far fetched idea nor a financial risk. Isn't it the subtitle community the very community your complaining about in the first place?! hmm... Plus with commercials you can gain some money back before a DVD is even made. You can also gauge how what the American audiences think about the series and it can help dictate how you'll release the series on DVD. You landed yourself a great series? then go ahead with reasonable 3-5 episode DVDs. Got yourself a crappier? Best to bite the bullet and release it in a cheap complete series set and get it out of the way. No method is perfect. People will have their Tivos and VCRs. People will prefer the free stuff if they really don't care about the quality. That's true for any show. But to not join the 21st century in the ever growing and change media market and to no take advantage of the market out there will only hurt the market. No matter how generous we are in buying DVDs. And I'm pretty generous. Not a sucker for buying $30 volumes of series but I just both a handful series sets that I've longed to own earlier today. Thanks ADV for the sale. And hey, targeting fansubs might be hard but that doesn't mean you can target groups that Rip US dvds and either slap on their own subtitles or just release the rips into the either. Now thats just purely wrong. |
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missing_soul
Posts: 44 |
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They are solvent right now expect for Geneon. Or if they are not, they really should find a solution ASAP. Their problem is how to channel part of the "free" market toward their sales, it's not exactly the same as saying they're losing a market share. If they succeed to do it, there will be an avalanche effect. More income, more shows dubbed and subbed, more income... it's the opposite to what happened to Geneon. Besides assurance companies work that way. You pay a fee and they suppose you stand a chance not to crash your car. You've got X million "points" from the fanbase. Sure there will be people who will go bankrupt after finishing high school / university. Ask an assurance company to create a mathematical model for that. I am sure the number of people who does not go bankrupt is well over 50%. They won't buy it off at once, but you can offer a contract witch guarantees they buy it off sooner or later or it will be converted into simple debt. That will create at least a steady flow of revenue where none existed before. The fanbase is enormous compared to what you tap in right now. Sure it's not a good idea to finance commercial activity from credit. I've never suggested that. There's a lot of companies still solvable, the actual fanbase allows them to remain afloat. However if you group together it could save those who are threatened to go bankrupt now or in the years to come (and save the licenses by the way) Also you have to finance the initial investment on your new network based media.
I see you don't understand my point. You "sell" the show now and the fans will buy it off in your online stores later. It could seem a bad idea to you to give out content "free" but actually it is given out free anyway. In six year however that could change. If you try to go in all out war with the subbers, do you think you're going to succeed in six years? I don't think so. Besides the money paid to lawyers will happily equal the money spent on the creation of a new media. What you're going to sell is the recent show to people who otherwise just download it. Besides there are always a fanbase growing up and shows as old as Slayers or Yu-yu-Hakusho are not that bad, not to speak of NGE, Cowboy Bebop, Trigun or the rest witch will be quite old from six year hence but I suppose won't age like LOGH witch only problem is anyway the hand animated space battle scenes. It's more like you'll have a problem on hand if the Japanese studios continue to change anime's look from Eurasian to Asian or simply "CGI" (sans nose). I suppose there's a limit to that. |
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