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NEWS: Anime Again Shut Out of Annie Nominations


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perpetual159



Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Washington D.C., United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:58 am Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
Anyway, there's no way you can say that Nausicaa is the same movie as, say, Spirited Away. Maybe Princess Mononoke. He does have a common theme in most of his movies, but not all, and each is unique in its own way.

There's no lost credibility to what I have said. Furthermore, I wasn't only referring only to the theme of each movie, which in most cases, one movie's theme is related to another, some way or another. When Nausicaa is concerned, you can see the same litany in his other movies, like Mononoke, Pom Poko, etc. And Spirited Away has practically the same theme as--say--the Cat Returns: girl goes into another world, has this awesome adventure, gets help from some rogue super-cool guy, and then goes back home. Like I said... most of his movie's themes are related to one of his previews films. So, for the most part, Miyazaki sorely lacks in the creativity department when storyline and plot are concerned. And, there's another thing to point out is that most of his movies' animation is ALL the same--maybe it's his trademark, who knows?--and it has only been improving with the times simply because, obviously, technology has advanced as well.

I am by no means saying that Hayao Miyazaki's movies suck. On the contrary, I truly enjoy MOST of them--there are some I don't see what the big hype is about, which I won't mention in this forum simply for the sole purpose of not making this thread longer than it needs to be and prevent people from having cardiac arrests and condemning me to an eternity of pain in hell. The great thing about Miyazaki's films is that it can easily appeal to groups of all ages.

As for all this constant bickering that's going on as for which animation is better--American or Japanese--the truth is that there is no reason to argue over something like this. I don't exactly know how the whole award industry works, so I can't say much about it--if they have to be submitted, or copyrighted domestically, like someone mentioned earlier, etc.--but what I do know is that I respect each industry equally. No one should be arguing which industry's material is better, because the bottom line is that animation and cartoons appeal to people differently. For my part, I enjoy anime better because there is more to choose from, whereas most American animation is targeted towards the younger audience, and while that's fine and dandy--it is a money thing after all--I just can't get used to watching one single theme every day. However, that does not stop me from appreciating all the work that it was put into it. I mean, I do own a some of the newer American films like Finding Nemo, Monster's Inc., Shrek, Cars (though I didn't like it as much as the others), etc., and I also enjoy watching Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends. Yes, before I get shot or stabbed, I know there are American cartoons for an older audience like The Simpsons, Family Guy, King of the Hill, The Boondonks (is that how you spell that?), etc., but again... it's all one theme: comedy. Unfortunately, American cartoons limit themselves when genres are concerned. It's always kid's stuff for kids, or comedy for grown ups.

Yes, I will agree with some people here and say that I am sad that most domestic films are moving away from the paper and pencil to the computer. While computerized films like Finding Nemo were awesome and beautiful, I still personally have this nostalgia for hand drawn animation--but that's just me. Animation can be created in many different ways... it only depends on the person's preference whether they decide to like it or not. However, just because YOU don't like it, it doesn't mean it sucks. So... all you people out there bitching and complaining... stop griping please. This isn't what this thread is about.
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LiuXuande



Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 201
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:23 pm Reply with quote
kazenoyume wrote:
LiuXuande wrote:
But they're kidding themselves if they're picking "Ratatouille" over much better foreign works.

I've heard good things about Persepolis though, look forward to seeing that later this year.


Umm... Ratatouille is the best reviewed major studio movie of this year and they're kidding themselves? Ninety-seven percent at Rotten Tomatoes and the sixth highest score of all time at metacritic?

Please. Bee Movie and Surf's Up being there is asinine, but Ratatouille shouldn't just win this, if the Academy didn't have their inherit bias against animation (they shunt everything animated off into its own category), it would have a best picture nomination as well.


I only mentioned it because, honestly it was the only one of the list I'd seen. I was sure Bee Movie and Surf's Up weren't so hot, but I didn't want to comment since I hadn't seen them. Ratatouille was good. However, it's still part of the continued trend that animation is a *children's* medium, and cannot tell strong provacative, mature stories like the anime titles I mentioned, and the other film on their list, Persepolis. Introduction of more not-really-for-children animated works and recognition of those works is really what animation needs to be recognized as such and to wipe out that characterization of the medium by Western audiences.
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MorwenLaicoriel



Joined: 26 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:49 pm Reply with quote
I'm not sure if I would call Ratatouille a kid's movie, myself. It's certainly a good family movie, and I'm sure kids like the talking rats and some of the slapstick, but the story itself struck me as being something that's more geared towards adults than other Pixar movies. That could be just me, though.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:00 pm Reply with quote
MorwenLaicoriel wrote:
I'm not sure if I would call Ratatouille a kid's movie, myself. It's certainly a good family movie, and I'm sure kids like the talking rats and some of the slapstick, but the story itself struck me as being something that's more geared towards adults than other Pixar movies. That could be just me, though.


You're not alone. Many, many critics and journalists commented on the fact that Ratatouille, while the concept may seem like kid's stuff, in execution it is really not at all a children's film.

I really don't think any film with a long speech from Peter O'Toole about the nature and purpose of art criticism is a "kid's movie".

Also, those of you bashing American animation you haven't seen, please stop. I realize it's everyone's instinct to see a trailer and assume something is worthless due to whatever personal bias you might have, but you should see the films you're decrying before doing so.

I thought Surf's Up looked like a mindless copycat, but it's a terrific film, very inventive, brilliantly written, totally innovative in its storytelling technique.
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MorwenLaicoriel



Joined: 26 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:15 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
MorwenLaicoriel wrote:
I'm not sure if I would call Ratatouille a kid's movie, myself. It's certainly a good family movie, and I'm sure kids like the talking rats and some of the slapstick, but the story itself struck me as being something that's more geared towards adults than other Pixar movies. That could be just me, though.


You're not alone. Many, many critics and journalists commented on the fact that Ratatouille, while the concept may seem like kid's stuff, in execution it is really not at all a children's film.

I really don't think any film with a long speech from Peter O'Toole about the nature and purpose of art criticism is a "kid's movie".


Yeah, that's one part I don't think kids would really follow well. The pace of the movie seems so meandering and slice-of-life, too...it seemed like a sort of relaxing film to me.
It's a shame it didn't do as well commercially as some of Pixar's other movies, I think it's probably one of their best to date.

Quote:
Also, those of you bashing American animation you haven't seen, please stop. I realize it's everyone's instinct to see a trailer and assume something is worthless due to whatever personal bias you might have, but you should see the films you're decrying before doing so.

I thought Surf's Up looked like a mindless copycat, but it's a terrific film, very inventive, brilliantly written, totally innovative in its storytelling technique.


Really? I had skipped over the movie as "just another talking animal movie"...looks like I might've made a mistake.
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fxg97873



Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 211
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:41 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
manuelRN wrote:
Screw the Annies. Screw Hollywood and screw Wallace and Gromit! Hollywood hasn't put out anything good in the last 50 years.


Comments like these and the stereotypical "American animation suxxxx!!!" comments that are polluting this thread make me sad and rageful.


I guess I shouldn't have said that during the prime time Japanese news hour in Tokyo...

(Time 1:57)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=H3pC39BkBZc

mk2000
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Goodpenguin



Joined: 02 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:51 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
However, it's still part of the continued trend that animation is a *children's* medium, and cannot tell strong provacative, mature stories like the anime titles I mentioned, and the other film on their list, Persepolis. Introduction of more not-really-for-children animated works and recognition of those works is really what animation needs to be recognized as such and to wipe out that characterization of the medium by Western audiences.


Not to single out this post, it just illustrates a meme used heavily in this thread and in general; but beyond the 'Japanese animation is so much better then American!' claptrap that another poster mentioned, the 'American audiences view animation as primarily children's entertainment while the Japanese widely partake of it at adult levels' is a 'holy grail' of anime myths, and largely false.

Stemming from Asian cultures' grounding in very visual/emotional storytelling backgrounds, a visual medium like animation is more ubiquitous in Japan then here. However, animated entertainment is still very much a niche field (though larger relative to the US) in Japan, with the primary difference being a wealth of material for the 13-17/18 market (or older 'Otaku'), whereas in the US sports, Sci-Fi, or soaps/dramas fill the adolescent slate.

The Japanese, like the US, love 'all ages' anime like Miyazaki's works, just like there is a wide fanbase here for Disney/Pixar material. Adult Japanese do not crowd around in droves to watch things like 'Paprika' however, that's squarely 'arthouse' domain. In terms of the teen-aimed anime from TV or OVA's, Japanese society at large views people watching that material over the age of 17-18 pretty harshly in fact, and more to the point, with my own eyes I've seen a much bigger percentage of Japanese teens into sports, Sci-Fi, and soaps/dramas (just like over here) then anime. On the point, I think a lot of US anime fans would be surprised at how narrow (relatively) the Japanese anime fanbase is.

Because the Japanese come from a society/region centered on a very visual/emotional storytelling style, animation is indeed a more 'widely' used form then in the US, but it mostly isn't given any more 'mature' lift in the mainstream then exists here. (As a matter of fact, shows like the 'Simpsons' or 'Futurama' largely constitute, with a couple exceptions, more 'adult' styled writing then most any animated efforts I've seen on Japanese TV) In Western countries like the US or France, there is actually a strong background (especially late 70's/early 80's) in animation as well as 'graphic novel' style adult-aimed entertainment, it's just very much neglected/overlooked as opposed to the more 'teen specific' field of anime. (When trumpeting 'adult' aimed anime, what half the time is really meant is it is of interest to teens, not really something an actual adult audience is going to widely enjoy).
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LiuXuande



Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 201
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:42 pm Reply with quote
No, in fact I almost completely agree with you. However it's the fact that our appreciation of media in the 21st century has been leaning so much towards the "arthouse" domain (everything from Lost in Translation, Garden State, domestic appreciation of Bollywood films, piqued interest in Asian horror, European indie, indie in general etc.) that I would expect Americans to pay closer attention to works like Paprika than the Japanese would. I should be clearer...it's not that "adult" audiences in the US should flock to the works, it's that our more sophisticated media appreciation groups, and much of film-viewing academia should.

What you say about the comparison to Japanese TV may be true.

While it may have true at the debut of the Simpsons, the intended audience was adults, it's likely (just my guess) the primary viewership today consists of the "older teen" audience, still. In fact, I don't want to make a generalization here...but just a pointed observation that what we consider animation geared towards an older "adult" audience, examples of which are Simpsons, Family Guy, Futurama, South Park, Drawn Together, Robot Chicken, etc... ALL of them are considered "adult" because they are, somewhat, crude in content. Not because they are thematically sophisticated. I don't want to generalize, but this is what I feel to be a true observation.

Edit: whoops, misread your post a bit. I guess you said the same thing as my second part, but I'll leave my point there anyway.


Last edited by LiuXuande on Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 8458
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:55 pm Reply with quote
perpetual159 wrote:
There's no lost credibility to what I have said.


Yes, because you erronously said that Grave of the Fireflies is a Miyazaki film.

It's a Takahata film. Do a little research before you assume that a Ghibli film is a Miyazaki film.

As for what you said about creativity in his films, you're sorely testing believability if you're trying to come up with a common plot development to Miyazaki's films. To say that they lack creativity shows that you're looking for broad trends where there aren't any. Princess Mononoke is an entirely different film than Spirited Away. Porco Rosso is an entirely different film than Nausicaa. Laputa is an entirely different film than Kiki's Delivery Service. Just because some of his films share a common trend of a child transported to another world, doesn't make them lack depth in creativity - the development and execution of character themes and situations are what is important. Really, since all plot formulas have already been used to some extent in every medium, this is where the strength of his movies are.

Miyazaki has a general theme to his works in the same way many famous directors do, even of anime - look at Oshii, or to a lesser extent, Satoshi Kon.
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perpetual159



Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Washington D.C., United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:31 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
Yes, because you erronously said that Grave of the Fireflies is a Miyazaki film.

It's a Takahata film.

My apologies for that mistake; I was under the impression that it was a Miyazaki film as well. I did some reading and you are correct in that aspect. My assumption was made under the impression that all Ghibli films were made by Miyazaki since his name is the one that is most mentioned when Ghibli is concerned. I at least have the decency to admit to my mistake.

However, like I mentioned before, I never said that every one of his movies are exactly the same. What I said was that most of his movies related to another at one point or another. Now, if you're trying to compare Spirited Away from Princess Mononoke, of course there's nothing to compare there, but like I already said, Spirited Away pretty much follows the same pattern as The Cat Returns. So, you're really missing my point. My point is that he makes a film, and it's great--I'm by no means belittling his work--but then he makes another film, with a totally different setting, but it practically preaches the same moral and follows the same idea and concept. Yes, indeed, his films are wonderful for the most part, and for those who like to be preached the same thing over and over, be my guest. However, great films are not only called great because they're beautiful and have a positive and important message, but because they must also be innovative and original.

For the most part, you entirely missed my point. I'm making a point about apples and you're talking about oranges. I'm talking about themes and ideas, and you kick and scream about character development, which are not the same things. Furthermore, you conveniently compare movies that are not related to each other. Why didn't you mention that Mononoke and Nausicaa aren't the same? But... I'm not going to waste my time and effort on that.

But... I'm just voicing my opinion. By the looks of it, you eat and breathe all these forum stuff. My suggestion is get another hobby. In the mean time, I'm not going to argue with someone that's partial. You made no comment to the other points I made because obviously I hit the mark. So, good luck in your future endeavors.
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HMMcKamikaze



Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:03 pm Reply with quote
Just so you know, The Cat Returns isn't a Miyazaki film either. He just produced it and came up with the "project concept". Yes his films are alike in many regards, but I don't think he beats anyone over the head with his messages to the point where the similarities are a nuisance (at least for me anyways.) Nausicaa and Princess Mononoke have a very similar set morals, I'll give you that, but that is only a small portion -- necessary of course -- of what makes the films great.

I don't remember who exactly said it, but they said that artists of all types are generally obsessed with some concept that they feel the need to express. It is the need to express themselves that makes them continue to produce art. If there is something that someone is really intent on conveying to other people it isn't uncommon for it to appear on one or more of their works. That being said, I think the deeper you look the more varied the films appear. For example, I didn't truly realize the complexity of Spirited Away until I watched it at least eight or nine times. Of course I first saw it when I was twelve, but even then there was so much that I never picked up on or appreciated until I just sat down one day and tried to watch the film as if I had never seen it before. It was only when I watched with no expectations or preconceptions that it really distinguished itself.
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perpetual159



Joined: 27 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:23 pm Reply with quote
HMMcKamikaze wrote:
Just so you know, The Cat Returns isn't a Miyazaki film either. He just produced it and came up with the "project concept".

But you just said it, he came up with the concept, and that I what I'm referring to. He didn't have to necessarily had to have a a hands-on involvement like production or directing. Additionally, I've been saying all along that Ghibli films are great. Spirited Away was not my favorite, but it had great animation. All I have been saying is that most of its films' concept, moral, plot, and message are limited to a very specific few, which include, but are not limited to "save the forest" "girls with strong character", etc.

Now, as for the repetitiveness of these concepts, everyone knows it's there. And like I said, just because it's repetitive, it doesn't mean it's a bad thing. All I'm pointing out is that it's there.

But... I get the hint... pointing out any of these kinds of things about a Ghibli Studio film is obviously sacrilege in ANN. Heheh... But, jeez, I didn't think I'd be asking for a death wish! hehehe
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HMMcKamikaze



Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:15 pm Reply with quote
I'm sure there are people who agree with you, and I have realized many of the similarities myself, but I guess it just doesn't bother me, mostly because there is enough variety in my opinion. Just as you said what you felt to be true I said what I did, regardless of how popular either position is. For example, I might say that I didn't like Full Metal Alchemist because I felt it was too strongly aimed for 13 year old boys, and I might be attacked for that, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't mention my opinion if the topic came up.

And also, I put "project concept" in parenthesis because I have no idea what that job entails. The movie isn't even listed in Miyazaki's credits on his Wikipedia page, or mentioned there at all for that matter.
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Moomintroll



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:01 pm Reply with quote
perpetual159 wrote:
HMMcKamikaze wrote:
Just so you know, The Cat Returns isn't a Miyazaki film either. He just produced it and came up with the "project concept".

But you just said it, he came up with the concept, and that I what I'm referring to.


The Cat Returns was actually originally supposed to be a short promotional film for a theme park. For reasons I don't recall, Ghibli decided to turn it into a fully fledged movie but Miyazaki's involvement was fairly minimal, to say the least, and I don't think it supports your argument very well.

Quote:
Now, as for the repetitiveness of these concepts, everyone knows it's there. And like I said, just because it's repetitive, it doesn't mean it's a bad thing. All I'm pointing out is that it's there.


I'd certainly agree that there are recurring themes in Miyazaki's films in particular and in Ghibli films in general. I think what's upsetting people is that you seemed to be saying that "recurring themes" = "all the same" which is obviously erroneous.

Quote:
But... I get the hint... pointing out any of these kinds of things about a Ghibli Studio film is obviously sacrilege in ANN.


Not at all. The two main Ghibli directors are both overtly leftwing, feminist, anti-militarist and environmentalist. To people whose beliefs are generally in accordance with theirs (mine, for example) that's hardly a problem. Indeed, it's one of the reasons we like Ghibli films so much. But there are just as many people here, with differing beliefs, likely to make snide remarks about Ghibli films for those very same reasons.

What people do take exception to, however, is somebody making brash statements about a subject they obviously don't know too much about. They don't necessarily expect you to agree with them but they do expect you to know what films a famous director directed before you attempt to summarise his career...
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:33 pm Reply with quote
perpetual159 wrote:
But... I'm just voicing my opinion. By the looks of it, you eat and breathe all these forum stuff. My suggestion is get another hobby. In the mean time, I'm not going to argue with someone that's partial. You made no comment to the other points I made because obviously I hit the mark. So, good luck in your future endeavors.


Don't paint me as some hiveminded idiot. I have opinions that can vary wildly from other people's on this forum, and if you'd been here long enough, you might've picked up on it. Don't make judgements based on your own assumptions. This isn't 4chan.
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