Forum - View topicOpen Letter from GDH International's Arthur Smith
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Hanyuu
Posts: 2 |
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While Smith's letter was interesting to read, I would've liked to see some references to actual proof from the 6 "FACTS" that he threw out in this letter. While most anime and/or internet veterans would know about the rising interest in anime due to increased convention attendee counts and the growth of file sharing; some of the more obscure facts (for me anyways), would need some actual numbers to be compared. Without the proof, his letter reads just like any other article on the net written by some random person.
I'd check his facts myself, but I'm too busy. (a.k.a. downloading to the max) 
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jayntampa
Posts: 12 |
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If the anime industry wants to succeed in DVD sales, the problem doesn't come from fansubbing. Heck, when the DVDs are released, pirates could simply rip them and set up torrents at that point -- so, what's the real difference?
Here's the real problem: 1) They need to grow the anime market, which means outreach and marketing to those that are not currently anime fans. They blame falling sales on piracy rather than the fact they aren't really doing anything to grow the market other than throwing crappy dubs into the retail chain. It doesn't work that way ... they need to create an outreach program to get new viewers. US distributors should just bite the bullet and hire a good PR firm to create a strategic plan for market expansion. 2) Update their outmoded method of distribution. The reason sales are falling is the same reason TV shows on DVDs had such a huge problem originally -- people don't want multiple volume seasons, period. They want season sets at a reasonable price. They just need to stop releasing individual volumes cold turkey and force a change. A 26 episode season is about 624 minutes ... and generally costs $120 at a discounted rate ($19.99/volume for series with a MSRP of $29.99). That's simply insane. Then I have this question, if fansubbing is taking away ALL the business ... why do distributors spend so much money on dubbing? Hint: MOST of the market listens to the shows in English! <-- this is the dirty secret. It's only us niche fans that use the subtitles ... we're not the market you have to worry about -- it's the casual fan that accounts for MOST sales, so fansubs won't even effect their purchase. You have to ask yourself, why are you losing those customers before assuming it's primarily the fansubs that is causing the market to plummet -- maybe it's, umm ... poor quality and value? |
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ruro niko
 Posts: 109 Location: Tennessee |
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Mr Smith does bring up some better points here than on his Active Anime interview. His proposal of streaming new episodes in subtitle only format is hopeful, and what I would like.
A huge problem he showed was the length in time it takes to license shows. Japanese companies should shop around for licensing companies while the show is in pre-production and have that settled hopefully before the airing of the first episode. I wouldn't mind watching streamed licensed anime from an official website, covered with banner ads and even have ads in between the eye catchers (where the commercials are supposed to be anyway). A legitimate digital means to watch anime as soon as it's released in Japan is obviously what needs to be done. Getting the licenses sooner and putting subtitled versions up within a week of the Japanese broadcasting would help cut down on illegitimate fansubs some. The industry just needs to get there, as well as not forgetting that people do, in fact, buy DVDs, and to help increase the sales of those, more incentive needs to be given. I'm constantly surprised by friends wanting all the limited edition Haruhi boxes, but it works because there's so much stuff that people want them, stuff people can't download. |
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fxg97873
 Posts: 211 Location: Houston, TX |
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I'll say the same thing I told Mr. Konno from BVSUA:
Japanese fans watch as much free anime as US fans. They also store/capture (DVR) quite a bit of it digitally. The difference is that their houses and TVs have direct access to the Japanese TV networks. We on the other hand do not have direct access to the Japanese TV networks and so we use varying technologies to simulate a TV network and DVR system (internet, bittorrent, computer/monitor). Some people take it a step forward by simulating the English language as well. (i.e. subtitles) It's almost as good as if we were Japanese living in Japan
In other words, our viewing and acquisition habits are quite similar. They say if people watch fansubs then why would we want to buy the show on DVD? If Japanese people watch their anime on TV or on a DVR, why would they want to buy the show later on R2 DVD? If we here in America watch network and cable TV, why would we want to buy the TV shows when they come out on DVD? Anybody getting my point here? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A JAPANESE CONSUMER WATCHING THE SHOW ON TV AND AN AMERICAN CONSUMER WATCHING THE SHOW SUBTITLED ON THEIR COMPUTER. It's still a freaking monitor. It's still a promotional showing. AD-Revenue? You think the studios make any money off the ads? It's the goods, DVDs or the Downloads they sell that makes them money. You want to fix the problem? Stop showing anime on TV and release the DVDs/HDs/Downloads simulataneously for both the US and Japan. What did you say? "But without the TV showing how will you promote the item?" Exactly. mk2000 |
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NeXT_Alchemist
 Posts: 52 Location: Kentucky |
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I'm one of those people who love to have the physical copy, something to add to my DVD shelves. (Another reason I love a physical copy is the art on the dvd and dvd box.) |
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Akakori
Posts: 11 |
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I think anime fans want equality. By this I mean Western fans want what Japanese fans can get and Japanese fans want what Western fans get.
The Western fans want to see the show as soon as they Japanese do. Certainly news about what happened in an episode moves very fast in this day and age. People talk on the Internet immediately after a show is aired and that soon reaches Westerners' ears who then want to see it for themselves. (For instance I found out about the latest episode of Myself; Yourself through 4chan two days ago - even then it was only today that I got to watch the fansub of it). What Westerners want is get anime ASAP to keep up with all the action. You may also note in Arthur Smith's letter that he mentions that Japanese anime DVD sales are down. Why is this? I expect it's because they now know what Westerners are getting anime DVDs for. Anyone who complains about the amount of episodes per DVD and the price of that DVD should check this out: Japanese fans must pay MORE per DVD for LESS episodes on each one. They get 2 episodes on each DVD and have to pay double what we do. What the Japanese fans want is the same price/episodes-per-DVD as Westerners get! So maybe Arthur Smith & Co should look at the whole industry too. On another note, I'd be eager to download official episodes. I'd also like to receive/see some information about existing or future ones because I feel rather in the dark. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Folks, there's absolutely no reason to bold your arguments. If people want to read what you're saying, they will.
Also, I find it somewhat saddening that regardless of someone's position in the industry, so many of you automatically disregard absolutely any statement that you don't agree with 100 percent, either by implying that the person speaking, regardless of their experience or knowledge, "doesn't know what they're talking about" or changing the goal posts and demanding some kind of "evidence" you're not really going to get. There's so much bluster and obfuscation that occurs as a result of ANY statement from the industry about the impact of fansubs, and honestly so many of you seem so absolutely, single-mindedly dedicated to shouting from the rooftops that fansubs have ABSOLUTELY NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER ON ANYTHING RARRGH that it scarcely matters what evidence or arguments you're presented with. I think the CEO of Toei could come down and show you absolutely damning evidence with hard numbers, income statements, verbal testimony from a million people who download fansubs and you'd still ignore it, imply that he doesn't know what he's talking about, and then switch the goal posts around again and demand some other kind of "evidence". |
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Panda Man
 Posts: 257 Location: North Carolina |
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I agree with Next_alchemist, I would much rather have the DVD. Just because they last longer and are harder to lose.
I my self will download fan subs. But I do it to check out newly licensed titles for the US. Well, there is one exception to that statement, I download Kodomo no Jikan when a new episode is translated. But when Lucky Star was announced, I got the first episode, and that was all. Now that I know I like it, I will most likely buy it. To me, Fan subs are both good and bad. The Good: Can help with getting a show known in the US and make it more likely to be bought when it comes out. The Bad: Can also cause DVDs to not sell because of people getting them for free. I understand sales have dropped. But I don't think it is all the fault of fan subs. Like I said earlier, the price is a major factor. And I know that its because of licensing, voice actors/actresses, etc. But really, if they were to reduce the price, they would sell more and be more likely to regain all the money. I went online to check the price of InuYasha Season 1, and when most places are selling it for $70 - $100, people are more likely to be discouraged to buy. And it's not just InuYasha, a lot of Anime is extremely high priced. So really, you are only selling to hardcore fans, and people with money. I my elf have no problem since I am lucky enough to have parents that support me by buying my DVDs. But say you got a person who is in a poor community or house hold, how are they to find out about it? Cartoon Network is trying, and so is Sci-Fi and Fuse. But what else is there? I doubt they are willing to move to an area that has the Anime Network or The FUNimation channel. That being said, I wish companies would just stop blaming it all on fan subs. They are doing many things wrong to. That is what I think about this matter. 
Last edited by Panda Man on Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kyokun703
 Posts: 2505 Location: Orgrimmar |
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Speak for yourself. I want the DVD and artboxes, not a bunch of plain ugly DVD-Rs or a bunch of files taking up space on my computer. |
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ojamajolilac
Posts: 22 |
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I personally do not live in the US, therefore I do not know what the market in US is like. (I live in UK, which have like...very little amount of anime and are usually even slower then US X_X)
I agree with the idea of expanding the anime market, to make new fans to start watching anime. Many anime companies are all blaming the fansub community, but I have to say...thats life...nothing goes perfect, insteading of just blaming and on fansubs, the companies would need to find a solution. I feel some sympathy for the companies, but thats's how the world goes. If something is free ...people would just use it. (the best example I can think of, is the newpapers in hong kong started giving out free tissues, then everyone that buyts newspaper just simply doesn't buy any more tissue because they got some for free X_X) There seems to be like no complaints about the spread of Scanlations for mangas, seems like this is a much smaller problem then the anime industry. I would think that the difference of having a physical book and having a digital image on the computer is very different. DVDs might not sell as well now because the overall quality of fansubs have improved alot over the years. Few years back fansubs was released in lower quality then DVD, which does make DVD superior to fansubs. Then fansubs became DVD quality, now many fansubs are released in HDTV (usually 720 lines) I dont have much to say, I cant support shows I would like to support in UK because they arent released X_X I supported Fruits baskets and thats the only anime I really enjoy that is released here. |
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tissuebubble
Posts: 49 |
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First, I disagree with Mr. Smith's analogy to the music industry. Unlike the music industry you are not getting a bit for bit replica. When you download an mp3 you can burn that to a CD and play that in your sound system with no loss of quality. You don't get that with fansubs. To be able to do that you need to convert the video and then have equipment that plays it. That costs more money and takes more commitment and I doubt people are doing that. They are not making replacements for the DVDs. They want something different. They want it fast and for free. They don't want the disk, box, extras, dubs, whatever. And that is something that must be looked at. Im guessing they want convenience and speed. An On-Demand system with sub titles and a dub later will probably make everyone happy.
Second, you can't beat fansubs. All this talk if it is good or bad for the industry. Fansubs are not going anywhere. Maybe they hurt the industry but you can't stop them. Keep sending DMCA notices to youtube you know they will be back up in a week. Same with bittorrent trackers if you get lucky and they do remove it (many don't care about DMCA as they are hosted outside the US). Who are you going to sue? They work out of IRC channels in the underground of the internet. You really can't just go about suing people. I know everyone is in the trial and error phase but while you are sitting back iTunes and Netflix are shipping out movies to people and making money. (yes, I believe Netflix is a type of On-Demand service). Think of a way to get the shows to people quickly and without much effort for them. People will pay for it. Third, claiming that fansubs is why anime DVD sales are down seems a bit much. I can think of a lot of reasons why fansubs and other anime related material is going up while DVDs are going down: First, could the "peak" be because you were selling backlogs? Maybe those DVD sales were actually older titles being released on higher quality DVDs instead of VHS? Second, broadband penetration actually has been slowing down lately. So I would think that DVD drops would be related to that penetration rate. Especially since a lot of these new "fans" are internet junkies and like internet culture. Anime culture and internet culture are pretty tied together. And so going to an Anime convention doesn't mean they are actually Anime consumers. Just that they are part of that online culture. They might watch it TV once in a while and chat with their friends online but their media is the internet and not anime. Third, wouldn't it make sense that people would give up their niche media before giving up their regular media? Maybe that is why anime is being hit slightly harder. People are buying less and decide that they will give up their 35 dollar anime and just buy a 15 dollar movie. And because anime is a niche if a 5,000 people stop buying anime it would be a much higher percentage than if 5,000 people stopped buying Hollywood movies. |
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Winter
Posts: 13 |
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Well, it's not like anyone is earnestly requesting evidence that fansubs are hurting the industry. At this point, it's turned into nothing more than a game of "You just try to crack my shell of self-serving plausible deniability! Can't do it, can you?! Nyah nyah nyah-nyah nyaaaaah!" |
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The Xenos
 Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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I have to admit I've used the "watching a show a friend taped" argument. Though I also try to translate it to the digital age. To be honest, it doesn't work. Smith is dead right about that. I'm impressed they actually did research to get those numbers.
Yet to most fans, on their level, in their view, it is like "watching a show a friend taped". It's just in their limited view of the world, they miss those hundreds of thousands of other people who get that file after they're done with it. I don't know how the companies can get through to these thick minded fans. Speaking of which, shionxx does need to speak for his or her self. You make a bad name for fans. You're not leading some revolution against Britania. You're just an anime fan who's full of themselves using a bad market and slow companies as an excuse for you free fansubs and bootlegging. Impatience is not an excuse to get stuff for free. You talk about companies not compromising. You talk about before blaming other, you should see what you are doing wrong. Well, you should look in a mirror. Are the companies totally right? Are they treating fans perfectly? No. Yet that isn't an excuse to abandon them and bootleg / fansub everything. You're lazy and cheap. You don't care about the current state or future of the industry that makes this anime you say you're a fan of. You're not a fan. You're a leech. You contribute nothing but complaints that getting anime isn't easy enough. You're not like original fansubbers who actually created the market for anime. You're the ones killing it. I love how these fans are making demands of the anime industry, as if anime companies control the standards of the larger media industries. Fans complain about the lack of easy anime digital download or the quality of the DVD standard or DVD subtitles. . Are you serious? Anime companies don't control the greater media industry. They can try some things, but I don't think they can control the change for which most fans ask. Many fans also cherry pick bad anime DVDs and make them an example of the whole industry. Anything as an excuse to not pay money. Your little clique of fansubbers can use random obscure codecs. Meanwhile, the anime industry has to have standards. They have to sell to the real world, not just a bunch of nerds on a message board. We fans need to realize this. The world is a little bigger than your little hikikomori room and the message boards you hang out on and groups you trade anime on. With fans like that, who needs enemies. |
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IrishHaremOtaku
Posts: 3 |
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To be perfectly honest, he's missed several other points of contention.
Voice Actor quality, Translation quality, lack of subtitles rather than dubs are all issues along with speed of release after Japanese release, price and availablity. Firstly, Voice actor quality is a serious problem from my perspective. For instance, in my opinion, the dubbing on Haruhi Suzumiya was of disturbingly bad quality. For, the VA for Haruhi herself had overprominant Californian accent. For someone who expects at least partially neutral accents, due to the obvious setting of Japan, this is too much to be ignored. Secondly, the translation of Japanese is either over-literal or over-customised for western audiences in alot of cases. Very few dubbed animes have achieved a good balance between the two. And lastly, I don't see why the DVD releases can't contain Japanese audio with subtitles as well. The fact that the great majority of DVDs do not have such an option, is an offput considering the poor quality of dubs. These reasons, on top of what has already been discussed, are major problems to be remedied before fansubbing will ever become taboo for the great majority of anime fans. Chasing after them with the law will not stop it. If history has taught us anything, it's that force causes resistance. And although in the US, law is absolute on issues like copyright, there are many MANY countries where this isn't the case. |
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The Xenos
Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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IrishHaremOtaku, are you joking? I can't think of a single modern anime release without Japanese track and subtitles. Your entire argument is invalid. He didn't mention it because there's no argument there.
Unless you're talking about kids stuff like Pokemon or.. I dunno.. Dragon Drive. Yet those are kids titles. Kids aren't going to be reading subs. If you refer to One Piece, that's because it was picked up by a single terrible company targeted for kids. |
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