Forum - View topic
NEWS: Second International Manga Award Competition Begins




Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
The Xenos



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 1517
Location: Boston
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:30 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
why she prefers the individualistic approach of Japanese manga (compared to the assembly-line approach of many American comics).


Bullcrap! Manga can be just as assembly line as American books. It's just they don't usually give credit to inkers, background artists, and other assistants. Never mind the editorial input that we don't hear about because, gee, we're half a world away and don't speak the language. A friend living in Tokyo who reads Japanese and follows manga said he was amazed at the crap you never hear about in America. There are tons of series that get canceled and even whole magazines that end publication. Never mind most of the sales go to one of two or three major publishing companies. Gee, kinda like America.

Really, look at how many titles are among these two companies.
(Remember, the titles you know are first published in magazines like Weekly Shonen Jump or Afternoon.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodansha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shueisha

Really, American comics and Japanese comics are NOT as different as fans and creators with blinders like this one think they are.

I'm amazed when American fans and even creators are prejudiced against American books. Amazing. An American prejudiced and insulting her own country and fellow creators. Really, she's ignorant and an insult to her fellow creators. There are plenty of American books from smaller publishers, or even medium ones like Image or Dark Horse, with more creative control than the majority of manga. Manga is a huge business. Don't give me this crap that it's any less assembly line than US books and write off American books.

Of course there is the small press and indie publishers in both America and Japan. Guess what kids? Doujinshi, small press fan comics? That's been going on for decades in America too.

(Of course we don't have quite as much copyright infringement, which usually lends to creators going for more self created works instead of fan parodies and xxx fan parody. That was an interesting bit about the doujinshi market in a recent Wired article. It's not quite as accepted as I thought, but the companies don't know what to do.)


Last edited by The Xenos on Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
testorschoice



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 466
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:51 pm Reply with quote
Take the top ten most popular American comic books of all time. Ask the writers and pencilers of those titles if they have any control over when to end the series and yet be assured that the publisher won't resurrect it under a different team. Ask them if they can get replaced from their own creation on corporate whim, without their say-so. Ask them if the copyrights for their respective titles are under their own names. Not the publisher or a syndicate, but their own names.

Now take the top ten most popular Japanese manga of all time. Ask the writers and pencilers (who often are the same one person in many titles) the same questions. Notice the difference in answers.

Do creators of the most popular Japanese manga have complete creative control over their works? No. Have they had far more creative control over their own works than the creators of the most popular American comics books, historically? Yes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SharinganEye



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 402
Location: Les Etats-Unis d'Amérique
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:25 pm Reply with quote
How can they have an International Manga Contest?

I understand the thought behind it but it doesn't logically make sense.

Manga is a medium, a subset of a medium to be precise. As such, it has no concrete style or formula that one can just apply across the board and have it stick.

Monster and Bleach and Fruits Basket and Hagaren are as different from each other as they are from House or Law and Order.

There isn't a "cookbook" on how to end up with manga as the final product.

But this contest, despite its original intentions, perverts manga into a misnomer indicating a style.

They're obviously looking to award series that emulate Japanese works, but looking at all the muddy water in their non-clarification of the distinct difference between a "manga" and a "comic," all this seems like is a patronizing back-pat and a confusing mess.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Xenos



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 1517
Location: Boston
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:30 pm Reply with quote
testorschoice wrote:
Take the top ten most popular American comic books of all time. Ask the writers and pencilers of those titles if they have any control over when to end the series and yet be assured that the publisher won't resurrect it under a different team. Ask them if they can get replaced from their own creation on corporate whim, without their say-so. Ask them if the copyrights for their respective titles are under their own names. Not the publisher or a syndicate, but their own names.


That's a broad generalization about American comics, like the one the author makes. Not everything is Batman and Spider-man. There are plenty of exceptions like Hellboy, Walking Dead, Sin City, Demo, Strangers From Paradise, Planetary, Scott Pilgrim, Demo, Fables, Y the Last Man, Queen & Country. I could go on for hours. All thoese creators ahve worked their asses off to get their own creations recognized. The author interviewed there ignores all of those and I find that pretty ignorant if not insulting to many American creators.

Quote:
Now take the top ten most popular Japanese manga of all time. Ask the writers and pencilers (who often are the same one person in many titles) the same questions. Notice the difference in answers.


You for get about all the assistants who go uncredited. Plus, is there anything wrong with having a writer and artist or even writer penciler and inker?

She ignores the uncredited assistants in Japan, key to producing popular manga, especially big company weekly ones. At least American comics give cover credit to inkers and interior credit to colonists and other people who work on the book. Though certainly being an mostly uncredited assistant is a shoe in to sell your own idea and start your own series. It's just a different system, with both relative advantages and disadvantages.

Believe me, I can complain about DC and Marvel and the lack of creator control till I'm blue in the face. Though this author insults all the other American creators by ignoring the books that are more creator controlled and the good American publishers who back them.

Quote:
Do creators of the most popular Japanese manga have complete creative control over their works? No. Have they had far more creative control over their own works than the creators of the most popular American comics books, historically? Yes.


Maybe those Japanese creators don't leave their long running books simply because they can't. They've got their one hit and they're sticking with it. The Japanese publishers don't replace the creators on because the authors don't leave. They're in it for the long how. That's just how the industry is structured there. That has its downsides too.


Last edited by The Xenos on Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:07 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Xenos



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 1517
Location: Boston
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:35 pm Reply with quote
SharinganEye wrote:
Manga is a medium, a subset of a medium to be precise. As such, it has no concrete style or formula that one can just apply across the board and have it stick.

Monster and Bleach and Fruits Basket and Hagaren are as different from each other as they are from House or Law and Order.

There isn't a "cookbook" on how to end up with manga as the final product.

But this contest, despite its original intentions, perverts manga into a misnomer indicating a style.


Amen to that. I have this image around whenever I make that argument myself. (Used to have another one, but this new one's neater.)



Can someone tell me how all these wonderfully unique styles are all the same manga style?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
testorschoice



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 466
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:28 pm Reply with quote
SharinganEye wrote:
How can they have an International Manga Contest?

I understand the thought behind it but it doesn't logically make sense.

Manga is a medium, a subset of a medium to be precise. As such, it has no concrete style or formula that one can just apply across the board and have it stick.

Monster and Bleach and Fruits Basket and Hagaren are as different from each other as they are from House or Law and Order.

There isn't a "cookbook" on how to end up with manga as the final product.

But this contest, despite its original intentions, perverts manga into a misnomer indicating a style.


Uh, where did you get the misconception that contest is demanding only one "cookbook" style, and have you even looked at this year's winners?

http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/culture/manga/index.html

Each one is radically different from the other. The contest actually does the opposite of what you think, and it celebrates that there are far more than one style.

Quote:
They're obviously looking to award series that emulate Japanese works, but looking at all the muddy water in their non-clarification of the distinct difference between a "manga" and a "comic," all this seems like is a patronizing back-pat and a confusing mess.


If there is little distinction between "manga" and "comic," that is because there has always been little distinction in Japan. The separation was never as "distinct" as many non-Japanese fans would believe. This contest doesn't change that.

Look up "manga" in Japanese dictionary. It says nothing about it having to come from Japan or having to cater to Japanese audiences. Look up at the Japanese wikipedia entry for manga.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/漫画

All three example pictures of "manga" in the Japanese entry come from outside Japan.

Now see how the Japanese people use the word "comic." Japanese people call everything from Tetsuwan Atom and Ouran High School Host Club to Superman and Sandman "comic."

The "distinct difference" between manga and comic was invented by foreigners. Japanese people don't make the same distinction.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
testorschoice



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 466
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:42 pm Reply with quote
The Xenos wrote:
testorschoice wrote:
Take the top ten most popular American comic books of all time. Ask the writers and pencilers of those titles if they have any control over when to end the series and yet be assured that the publisher won't resurrect it under a different team. Ask them if they can get replaced from their own creation on corporate whim, without their say-so. Ask them if the copyrights for their respective titles are under their own names. Not the publisher or a syndicate, but their own names.


That's a broad generalization about American comics, like the one the author makes. Not everything is Batman and Spider-man. There are plenty of exceptions like Hellboy, Walking Dead, Sin City, Demo, Strangers From Paradise, Planetary, Scott Pilgrim, Demo, Fables, Y the Last Man, Queen & Country. I could go on for hours. All thoese creators ahve worked their asses off to get their own creations recognized. The author interviewed there ignores all of those and I find that pretty ignorant if not insulting to many American creators.


Now you're putting words in my mouth. Smile I didn't say, and the author didn't say everything in American comics has the same method. But even today, most copies of American comics sold follow the model of Batman and Spider-Man, not the independent comics. When someone says that American movies or Hollywood is in a rut, he's not ignoring the worthy independent moviemakers who aren't in a rut, much less trying to insult them--he's just commenting on the overall industry.

Quote:
Quote:
Now take the top ten most popular Japanese manga of all time. Ask the writers and pencilers (who often are the same one person in many titles) the same questions. Notice the difference in answers.


You for get about all the assistants who go uncredited. Plus, is there anything wrong with having a writer and artist or even writer penciler and inker?


I think point the author was making is that having one person in creative control of an entire work makes it an individualistic work, which she prefers. Copy for copy, more manga are sold that way than American comics.

In any case, "all the assistants who go uncredited" is a generaliation. The trend in modern manga is to credit assistants. The top-selling manga artist in Japan now such as Takehiko Inoue and Hiromu Arakawa do it.

Quote:
She ignores the uncredited assistants in Japan, key to producing popular manga, especially big company weekly ones. At least American comics give cover credit to inkers and interior credit to colonists and other people who work on the book. Though certainly being an mostly uncredited assistant is a shoe in to sell your own idea and start your own series. It's just a different system, with both relative advantages and disadvantages.


The colorist is a moot point for most manga for obvious reasons, but as above the trend in modern manga is to credit assistants. In any case, ask an artist if they rather have a name in a credit or a name in the copyright notice. Wink


Quote:
Quote:
Do creators of the most popular Japanese manga have complete creative control over their works? No. Have they had far more creative control over their own works than the creators of the most popular American comics books, historically? Yes.


Maybe those Japanese creators don't leave their long running books simply because they can't. They've got their one hit and they're sticking with it. The Japanese publishers don't replace the creators on because the authors don't leave. They're in it for the long how. That's just how the industry is structured there. That has its downsides too.


Uh, many Japanese artists can, and have left long-running series, while remaining in creative control. The point is that Japanese publishers don't replace most creators without the creators' permission because they legally can't. Again, most Japanese manga, copy for copy, are creator-owned. That's why the creator's name in the original copyright notice of most manga, not the publisher. The same can't be said of most American comics, copy for copy.


Last edited by testorschoice on Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
testorschoice



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 466
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:43 pm Reply with quote
The Xenos wrote:

Amen to that. I have this image around whenever I make that argument myself. (Used to have another one, but this new one's neater.)



Can someone tell me how all these wonderfully unique styles are all the same manga style?


You didn't have to go through the trouble of pulling out that chart. All you had to do is go to the contest page and see the winners already making that point. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Xenos



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 1517
Location: Boston
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:16 am Reply with quote
testorschoice wrote:
Now you're putting words in my mouth. Smile I didn't say, and the author didn't say everything in American comics has the same method. But even today, most copies of American comics sold follow the model of Batman and Spider-Man, not the independent comics. When someone says that American movies or Hollywood is in a rut, he's not ignoring the worthy independent moviemakers who aren't in a rut, much less trying to insult them--he's just commenting on the overall industry.


If American films is in a rut, I don't think the answer would be to go publish your film overseas and complain about American films. She's clearly ignoring the many creators in America fighting for smaller publishers and creator owned content. To jump to Japan and call your work by a Japanese name is not a good solution for American creators.

Quote:
I think point the author was making is that having one person in creative control of an entire work makes it an individualistic work, which she prefers. Copy for copy, more manga are sold that way than American comics.

In any case, "all the assistants who go uncredited" is a generaliation. The trend in modern manga is to credit assistants. The top-selling manga artist in Japan now such as Takehiko Inoue and Hiromu Arakawa do it.
.


Again, so the solution is to ignore many creator controlled properties like Hellboy or Walking Dead or any of the others I named just because they don't bow down by calling itself manga? C'mon. There are hundreds and hundreds of creator owned American books that you and the nominated author here are ignoring. Never mind that the awards themselves all of ignore those in favor of one whose title is in Japanese. Excuse me if I am very suspicious of excessive Japanese nationalism.

You're the one that brought up sales. There are hundreds of creator owned books in America. None of those got nominated, but this small one with a Japanese name did? That's mighty fishy.

Quote:

Uh, many Japanese artists can, and have left long-running series, while remaining in creative control. The point is that Japanese publishers don't replace most creators without the creators' permission because they legally can't. Again, most Japanese manga, copy for copy, are creator-owned. That's why the creator's name in the original copyright notice of most manga, not the publisher. The same can't be said of most American comics, copy for copy.


Again, if you focus only the big two. If you look at others, no. Why are you ignoring so many titles? The solution isn't turning to Japan and looking for acceptance there by making your book more Japanese and palatable to Japanese judges. The solution is helping these American creator owned books so America's comics industry can be as strong and creator owned as you point out Japan's is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
testorschoice



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 466
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:03 am Reply with quote
The Xenos wrote:
testorschoice wrote:
Now you're putting words in my mouth. Smile I didn't say, and the author didn't say everything in American comics has the same method. But even today, most copies of American comics sold follow the model of Batman and Spider-Man, not the independent comics. When someone says that American movies or Hollywood is in a rut, he's not ignoring the worthy independent moviemakers who aren't in a rut, much less trying to insult them--he's just commenting on the overall industry.


If American films is in a rut, I don't think the answer would be to go publish your film overseas and complain about American films. She's clearly ignoring the many creators in America fighting for smaller publishers and creator owned content. To jump to Japan and call your work by a Japanese name is not a good solution for American creators.


Some American moviemakers did exactly that: they went abroad to get some of their films distributed when they couldn't in America. They still distributed their other films in America when they could, while justifiably complaining about the situation. By doing both, they might help improve the situation, while still not starving in the process. And that's very analagous to what this author is doing.

Quote:
Again, so the solution is to ignore many creator controlled properties like Hellboy or Walking Dead or any of the others I named just because they don't bow down by calling itself manga? C'mon. There are hundreds and hundreds of creator owned American books that you and the nominated author here are ignoring.


Again, you're trying to put words into the mouths of other people and then railing against a strawman argument. No one is ignoring the creator-owned properties in America, or saying everything in American comics follows the Batman and Spider-Man model. Some of us are just pointing out that most of the comics sold in America, copy for copy, aren't creator-owned. Meanwhile, the vast majority of manga sold in Japan, copy for copy, are creator-owned.

Quote:
Never mind that the awards themselves all of ignore those in favor of one whose title is in Japanese. Excuse me if I am very suspicious of excessive Japanese nationalism.

You're the one that brought up sales. There are hundreds of creator owned books in America. None of those got nominated, but this small one with a Japanese name did? That's mighty fishy.


Uh, those hundreds of creator-owned books can't get nominated if they don't even apply. Please don't take this out on the author who did apply.

Quote:
Quote:

Uh, many Japanese artists can, and have left long-running series, while remaining in creative control. The point is that Japanese publishers don't replace most creators without the creators' permission because they legally can't. Again, most Japanese manga, copy for copy, are creator-owned. That's why the creator's name in the original copyright notice of most manga, not the publisher. The same can't be said of most American comics, copy for copy.


Again, if you focus only the big two. If you look at others, no. Why are you ignoring so many titles? The solution isn't turning to Japan and looking for acceptance there by making your book more Japanese and palatable to Japanese judges.


The reason the focus is on the big two is that the vast majority of the sales go to those two. That's not ignoring the independent comics--just pointing out the state of the industry. After all, you tried to do the same yourself in Japan's situation by calling out Kodansha--the sponsor of that author's contest incidentally.

Quote:
The solution is helping these American creator owned books so America's comics industry can be as strong and creator owned as you point out Japan's is.


Ironically, you railing against an author who doing both: she's publishing creator-owned books though both American and Japanese companies. Give her a break.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Xenos



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 1517
Location: Boston
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:25 am Reply with quote
testorschoice wrote:

Uh, those hundreds of creator-owned books can't get nominated if they don't even apply. Please don't take this out on the author who did apply.
...
The reason the focus is on the big two is that the vast majority of the sales go to those two. That's not ignoring the independent comics--just pointing out the state of the industry. After all, you tried to do the same yourself in Japan's situation by calling out Kodansha--the sponsor of that author's contest incidentally.
...
Ironically, you railing against an author who doing both: she's publishing creator-owned books though both American and Japanese companies. Give her a break.


Ah, I missed that key point. She applied to this contest. Makes a good deal more sense and makes it all seem much better. It's kinda like how Paprika didn't even get nominated for an Oscar even though it was eligible.

Though I do wonder why one would feel the need to go over to Japan for their awards instead of trying to get recognized in their local market and community.

I see too many manga fans turn up their nose at domestic American comics. Some of them even turn their nose up at Japanese inspired ones like this one. That disturbs me. It's funny because not that long ago many of those who did read any comics turned their nose up at Japanese ones. Now more kids are reading Japanese comics than American ones. Then again, to be honest, I can't blame them, but I do dislike them not opening to any US books.

Plus, many of these works seem pseudo-Japanese. They seem more inspired by specific anime than by Japan itself. It's just a trend I don't like. Too many young creators try to be manga first and creators second. Instead of speaking of what they know and their voice, they try to be like manga and try to be Japanese. Hell, not even that, some cartoon version of Japanese. I don't think many of these kids have been to Japan even for a vacation.They should be writing about their experience in America.

They should follow in the footsteps of great American comic creators like Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, or Warren Ellis. Yeah. Rolling Eyes

Oh yeah, I also found this page. (Or did I miss that link above?)
http://e-morning.jp/mimc/result/english.html

I'm reminded that American Paul Pope published in Afternoon for a while. I quoted his book Pulp Hope: The Art of Paul Pope for a blog post.

Quote:
I have the dubious distinction of being the last foreign artist working for them into the 21st century, or the first fired by them in the 21st, depending how you look at it. With the exception of the great French artists Moebius and Baru, I was the only foreigner to last more than five years working for them.
...
The Japanese editors I worked with at Kodansha were primarily interested in the visual aspects of manga. They really didn't care about what you wrote about of what your intentions as an artist were, so long as whatever you produced looked good and would sell like hotcakes in Japan.
...
They tended to treat foreigners as expensive experimental test tube babies, to be tolerated and indulged, at times nurtured, always to be studied and obbserved. After a few years, it became clear to them, while the editors and the artists were happy, the manga done by foreign talent wasn't hitting a popular chord with the usual manga readers. It was just too different, too strange for the maddeningly conservative manga readership.


He also says something against that sterotype that things are totally up to the artist and that manga is more creative than American books as too many fans belive.

Quote:
You have to work very closely with your editors, it's just a fact of manga life. The editor functions much more like a big Hollywood film producer does in relation to a director, very hands on, and a publishing house is like a studio. Even Go Nagai, one of Japan's biggest manga artists, had to work under these conditions. Nobody who makes it big in manga is hands off. It just doens't happen
...
Luckily I had good editors who were considerate and cared a lot ab out my projects and who cared about manga, so all the hoop jumping as never a problem, rather it was a benefit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
testorschoice



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 466
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:42 am Reply with quote
The Xenos wrote:

Though I do wonder why one would feel the need to go over to Japan for their awards instead of trying to get recognized in their local market and community.


I wonder why you would feel this is an either/or, this-instead-of-that situation when one can do both, like this author's bio says she did. Smile

Quote:
I see too many manga fans turn up their nose at domestic American comics. Some of them even turn their nose up at Japanese inspired ones like this one. That disturbs me. It's funny because not that long ago many of those who did read any comics turned their nose up at Japanese ones. Now more kids are reading Japanese comics than American ones. Then again, to be honest, I can't blame them, but I do dislike them not opening to any US books.


Fortunately, the article says this author did open some US comic books (just not many), so there's one less for you to dislike. Smile

Quote:
Plus, many of these works seem pseudo-Japanese. They seem more inspired by specific anime than by Japan itself. It's just a trend I don't like. Too many young creators try to be manga first and creators second. Instead of speaking of what they know and their voice, they try to be like manga and try to be Japanese. Hell, not even that, some cartoon version of Japanese. I don't think many of these kids have been to Japan even for a vacation.They should be writing about their experience in America.

They should follow in the footsteps of great American comic creators like Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, or Warren Ellis. Yeah. Rolling Eyes


A female American creator couuuuuld decide to follow the footsteps of three male British creators instead of a female Japanese creator.

...Or not. Hey, it's her choice. Smile

Quote:

I'm reminded that American Paul Pope published in Afternoon for a while. I quoted his book Pulp Hope: The Art of Paul Pope for a blog post.

[...]

He also says something against that sterotype that things are totally up to the artist and that manga is more creative than American books as too many fans belive.

[...]


Fortunately, no one here is saying that creators in Japan have total creative control, and Pope doesn't say that Japanse manga have as little creator-ownership as the American comics, so while this is an interesting tangent, maybe it's best discussed in another topic thread. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Not a Jellyfish



Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 539
Location: Boston, MA
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:41 pm Reply with quote
Keep in mind, she herself does not have these assistants. And many smaller manga artists don't have them either. Sure, the big ones do, but many do not. And while the editor does work closely with a manga artist, they don't have much creative influence over the work. For some, yes, they do (Jump?). But again, there are always exceptions to these rules, as you keep pointing out. But they ARE the exception, and NOT the rule.

I also think that it's silly of you to point out the uniquely different styles of manga, yet ignoring that there are indeed VERY similar stories across all genres in manga, as well as in American comics. The same goes for American comics (many are differnt, but there are many that are similar). The reason why American comics aren't going for these contests is one (as previously mentioned) they don't apply. But also they are typically (not always) different in style and story and method from manga. While manga does have different styles, etc, within manga, it's still a vastly different field from American comics. (Not better or worse, just different)

Although I definitely agree with you on the fact that there are excellent American comics that are highly ignored by the manga market (Blankets? Cerebus?). And I also think that "American manga" artists should focus more on their own experiences. I don't read "American manga" because of the fact that I don't understand why they always have to explicitly make the series take place in Japan, give the characters Japanese names, and go to Japanese schools, (and read in a Japanese orientation for no reason whatsoever Rolling Eyes ) while the creators often know very little about Japan. I think often these stories would be much better if the author would change the setting to something that would be more real for them. Taking place in Japan is an extremely lame plot point that too many people use to try to appeal to manga fans and mask the fact that it is in fact, American.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group