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Zalis116
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:24 pm Reply with quote
samuraijellyfish wrote:
who_is_friend wrote:
Quote:
Air is based on one of those games where, if you play your cards right, you get to sleep with as many ladies as you want.
Ugh..... please. Most eroge now, especially Key games, have one path at a time, so it's not possible to "get" all the girls in one round.
Well, really, it's okay for him to make a generalization about an H-game because not everyone would know what he was talking about. And what's an easier way to describe an H-game than saying you get to sleep with lots of different girls? I know it's a bit more complicated than that (what with my endless sessions of F/sn, and having played a Key game or two), but the average anime fan isn't going to care about the intricacies of H-game mechanics.
We went through all this the first time the review came up. The problem with these semi-accurate generalizations is that they portray the games and the anime based on them in a bad light, thus reducing their overall attractiveness and diminishing their market potential.
CitizenGeek wrote:
Richard J. wrote:
Also, if she liked AIR, then she liked it. It's on my "best of" list for the year too. Contrary to what you might think, your opinion is not the word of God, thus some people have differing opinions as to what exactly deserves to be on a "best of 2007" list.
I never even suggested my opinion was the word of God, and I understand that different people have different opinions .... but putting moe on a list as publicised as this? Ugh.
So again, why shouldn't she put a moe series on the list if she likes it and considers it good from a critical perspective? Why should ANN be part of the (possibly-AWO-led) Anti-Moe Coalition?
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Splitter



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:41 pm Reply with quote
I find it interesting how people are complaining that Air is on Bamboo's list, but no one has a problem with Rumbling Hearts. They were both based on H-games, they are both deeper than a simple "pick-a-girl-and-screw-her" plot (Rumbling Hearts gets bonus points for making the sex plot-related). I understand the generalization of Air's origins, but you're talking about an anime from a company that has always put it's "cut scenes" to the backburner, to the point of eventually having so much clout for their story-not-sex approach that they've been able to release their games without the 18+ content. For example anyone who calls Clannad an H-game has no idea what they are talking about.

Also, I think the people who are complaining how a "moe" anime (How is moe even a genre?) could be on Bamboo's list need to just be ignored. That's like saying Cat's Eye shouldn't be on her list because it's old.
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Redbeard 101
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:43 pm Reply with quote
CitizenGeek wrote:
Richard J. wrote:
Also, if she liked AIR, then she liked it. It's on my "best of" list for the year too. Contrary to what you might think, your opinion is not the word of God, thus some people have differing opinions as to what exactly deserves to be on a "best of 2007" list.


I never even suggested my opinion was the word of God, and I understand that different people have different opinions .... but putting moe on a list as publicised as this? Ugh.


And what's wrong with that? Different strokes for different blokes as they say. Some might argue about why put science fiction on the list or why put a Shonen Jump title on the list. So why don't you just relax and not worry about it. And being Moe or not does not take away from Air's positive qualities either. So maybe you shouldn't jump to rash conclusions about it simply because it's part of a particular genre.
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CitizenGeek



Joined: 02 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:00 pm Reply with quote
james039 wrote:
Air is actually pretty good. It isn't exactly a moe panderfest either. You should check it out, unless you're truly put off by any program that contains any form of *cuteness* Embarassed


I've watched the first 4 or so episodes of Air ... and it wasn't good, like, at all. And I can appreciate cuteness in anime, but moe is a different thing entirely.

Richard J. wrote:
Regardless, it's not something to do a facepalm over. With the "ugh" noises in your posts, you're acting like a single moe series, getting a postive review, is some terrible thing that is making you physically ill and that detracts from ANN as a whole or Bamboo's column as a part. If it makes you feel better, I'm fairly certain from his past comments that Zac rather hates moe anime.


Well, it is something terrible. I mean, it's sending the message that moe is good, better than series like Mushi Shi, even. Moe is driving so much in Japan now, I'd hate to think the same would happen over here.

And it does detract from Bamboo's article, as does the aforementioned lack of Mushi Shi.
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chronium



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:05 pm Reply with quote
here-and-faraway wrote:

The one favorite I am avoiding is Beck. Not because it doesn't sound good, but because I started the manga a few years ago and am IN LOVE with it. I'm scared that if I watch the anime it will spoil something in the manga series. I'll try and watch the anime when Tokyopop is done publishing the manga. (Which considering they're only on volume 11, will probably be in 2012 Anime hyper)

Happy New Year!


The anime ends on volume 10 of the manga with a ending credits slideshow for the last episode of the next 4ish volumes that does very little spoiling. you can always get the anime and stop at the skideshow
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Redbeard 101
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:19 pm Reply with quote
CitizenGeek wrote:

Well, it is something terrible. I mean, it's sending the message that moe is good, better than series like Mushi Shi, even. Moe is driving so much in Japan now, I'd hate to think the same would happen over here.

And it does detract from Bamboo's article, as does the aforementioned lack of Mushi Shi.


Well you are entitled to your opinions, as close minded as they be, but that doesn't mean your word is law as you already said yet you seem to think we all should ascribe to your word, including Bamboo with her article. Her simply putting it in there in no way sends an image or message it's better then anything else. She didn't compare it to another series or genre now did she? You're just stretching with that to somehow validate your view and it's not working.
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Cowboy Cadenza



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:20 pm Reply with quote
Splitter wrote:
I find it interesting how people are complaining that Air is on Bamboo's list, but no one has a problem with Rumbling Hearts. They were both based on H-games, they are both deeper than a simple "pick-a-girl-and-screw-her" plot (Rumbling Hearts gets bonus points for making the sex plot-related). I understand the generalization of Air's origins, but you're talking about an anime from a company that has always put it's "cut scenes" to the backburner, to the point of eventually having so much clout for their story-not-sex approach that they've been able to release their games without the 18+ content. For example anyone who calls Clannad an H-game has no idea what they are talking about.

Also, I think the people who are complaining how a "moe" anime (How is moe even a genre?) could be on Bamboo's list need to just be ignored. That's like saying Cat's Eye shouldn't be on her list because it's old.


The fact is that moe anime in general perpetuate the standard that women should be subservient to men, which is particularly a problem in Japan. The one moe series I gave a chance (Kanon 2006) had such indications all over the place. I haven't seen Air, so I can't really comment on this particular series, but I feel that moe as a concept in general has a negative social impact. Just my two cents, though.
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Richard J.



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:30 pm Reply with quote
CitizenGeek wrote:
Well, it is something terrible. I mean, it's sending the message that moe is good, better than series like Mushi Shi, even. Moe is driving so much in Japan now, I'd hate to think the same would happen over here.
Yes, God forbid something that's popular in Japan become popular here. Rolling Eyes

Again, you're treating your personal opinon of moe as something that should be universal. Not everyone dislikes it. Not everyone likes Mushi Shi. There are also, in point of fact, quite a few more peole than both camps combined that would call everyone on this board nuts for liking foreign cartoons to begin with.

CitizenGeek wrote:
And it does detract from Bamboo's article, as does the aforementioned lack of Mushi Shi.
Detract how? Is there some standardized scoring system for lists of good anime that Bamboo has failed to take into account? How many points off does she get for not mentioning Mushi Shi? Was AIR not one of the correct answers according to the master key?
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Zac
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:32 pm Reply with quote
CitizenGeek wrote:

Hm, my personal opinions are not accurately reflected in this editorial column written by someone else, therefore it is a failure.
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Splitter



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:54 pm Reply with quote
Cowboy Cadenza wrote:
Splitter wrote:
I find it interesting how people are complaining that Air is on Bamboo's list, but no one has a problem with Rumbling Hearts. They were both based on H-games, they are both deeper than a simple "pick-a-girl-and-screw-her" plot (Rumbling Hearts gets bonus points for making the sex plot-related). I understand the generalization of Air's origins, but you're talking about an anime from a company that has always put it's "cut scenes" to the backburner, to the point of eventually having so much clout for their story-not-sex approach that they've been able to release their games without the 18+ content. For example anyone who calls Clannad an H-game has no idea what they are talking about.

Also, I think the people who are complaining how a "moe" anime (How is moe even a genre?) could be on Bamboo's list need to just be ignored. That's like saying Cat's Eye shouldn't be on her list because it's old.


The fact is that moe anime in general perpetuate the standard that women should be subservient to men, which is particularly a problem in Japan. The one moe series I gave a chance (Kanon 2006) had such indications all over the place. I haven't seen Air, so I can't really comment on this particular series, but I feel that moe as a concept in general has a negative social impact. Just my two cents, though.


I see you have the same warped view of moe characteristics as most casual fans do. To be honest, there is no set definition for moe. It's more of an attuned response to certain character traits. Moe isn't so much about viewers wanting to rule over these character. It's more like they want to take care of them, like a paternal instinct one might say.

Much of moe is actually garnered from a sort of pity. Even with the rough tsundere-type, because they cannot express their feelings the way they want to, the viewer takes pity on them and becomes a "fan" so that to hope they can one day express their feelings clearly. Traits that many characters considered "moe" share are of the following: seriously, almost alienating, personality quirks, torturous pasts, and sincerity in everything they say or do to the point of being naive.

It is therefore misconstrued to say that moe is a matter of fans wanting cute girls to serve them.
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DuelLadyS



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:59 pm Reply with quote
CitizenGeek wrote:

Well, it is something terrible. I mean, it's sending the message that moe is good, better than series like Mushi Shi, even. Moe is driving so much in Japan now, I'd hate to think the same would happen over here.

And it does detract from Bamboo's article, as does the aforementioned lack of Mushi Shi.


So, beautifully drawn slow-paced melancholy show about silver-haired guy and cute girls= a waste of ink, but beautifully drawn slow-paced melancholy show about silver-haired guy and wispy monsters= instant classic? What's with the misogyny? Laughing

Seriously though, it's just a bunch of opinions, and if the very idea of promoting a moe title is so offensive to you, by all means go find another website to read. I like both shows, but completely see how someone could easily hate one or the other (or both). It just so happens she liked Air enough to put it on the short list. It's not as if she hated Mushi-shi (it did get Shelf Worthy ratings as I recall.) So quit whining already.
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Cowboy Cadenza



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:16 pm Reply with quote
DuelLadyS wrote:
CitizenGeek wrote:

Well, it is something terrible. I mean, it's sending the message that moe is good, better than series like Mushi Shi, even. Moe is driving so much in Japan now, I'd hate to think the same would happen over here.

And it does detract from Bamboo's article, as does the aforementioned lack of Mushi Shi.


So, beautifully drawn slow-paced melancholy show about silver-haired guy and cute girls= a waste of ink, but beautifully drawn slow-paced melancholy show about silver-haired guy and wispy monsters= instant classic? What's with the misogyny? Laughing

Seriously though, it's just a bunch of opinions, and if the very idea of promoting a moe title is so offensive to you, by all means go find another website to read. I like both shows, but completely see how someone could easily hate one or the other (or both). It just so happens she liked Air enough to put it on the short list. It's not as if she hated Mushi-shi (it did get Shelf Worthy ratings as I recall.) So quit whining already.


If that's all you got out of Mushishi, I'm pretty sure you're missing something.

Splitter, my point is that the characteristics of moe characters - the ones you mention - instill the feeling in the viewer that they want to take care of the characters, or indeed that the characters need to be taken care of. I don't really have anything against moe other than the fact that I'm not a huge fan of the genre, I'm just trying to explain why some people think it's a bad thing.
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Splitter



Joined: 19 May 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:37 pm Reply with quote
Cowboy Cadenza wrote:
DuelLadyS wrote:
CitizenGeek wrote:

Well, it is something terrible. I mean, it's sending the message that moe is good, better than series like Mushi Shi, even. Moe is driving so much in Japan now, I'd hate to think the same would happen over here.

And it does detract from Bamboo's article, as does the aforementioned lack of Mushi Shi.


So, beautifully drawn slow-paced melancholy show about silver-haired guy and cute girls= a waste of ink, but beautifully drawn slow-paced melancholy show about silver-haired guy and wispy monsters= instant classic? What's with the misogyny? Laughing

Seriously though, it's just a bunch of opinions, and if the very idea of promoting a moe title is so offensive to you, by all means go find another website to read. I like both shows, but completely see how someone could easily hate one or the other (or both). It just so happens she liked Air enough to put it on the short list. It's not as if she hated Mushi-shi (it did get Shelf Worthy ratings as I recall.) So quit whining already.


If that's all you got out of Mushishi, I'm pretty sure you're missing something.

Splitter, my point is that the characteristics of moe characters - the ones you mention - instill the feeling in the viewer that they want to take care of the characters, or indeed that the characters need to be taken care of. I don't really have anything against moe other than the fact that I'm not a huge fan of the genre, I'm just trying to explain why some people think it's a bad thing.


DuelLadyS actually generalized the premises of both shows. Air, like Mushishi, is far more than it's being claimed as as well. The point is that you are defacing an entire series because it has a childish big-eyed small-mouthed girl that has a monosyllabic catchphrase.

I understand your point. It's very easy to misconstrue the actions of characters with moe vibes as being subservient, but like all creative work, that comprehensive thinking is not of the creators but of the viewer. It always seems like it's guys that are going off on tangents about moe, and not the girls that it should be offending if your claim should hold any water. Also, it should be noted that moe extends to male characters as well, especially shota characters and traps. A key example of a male character with moe vibes would be L from Death Note. Believe me, this is not a female-specific characteristic.
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CitizenGeek



Joined: 02 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:04 pm Reply with quote
Richard J. wrote:
Yes, God forbid something that's popular in Japan become popular here. Rolling Eyes


Not quite sure what you mean here; but I hope you're not suggesting that just because I like anime and manga, I shouldn't complain about other Japanese things.

Quote:
Again, you're treating your personal opinon of moe as something that should be universal. Not everyone dislikes it. Not everyone likes Mushi Shi. There are also, in point of fact, quite a few more peole than both camps combined that would call everyone on this board nuts for liking foreign cartoons to begin with.


Moe is something that's just so repulsively insulting to human intelligence that even mild cases, like AIR, should not be promoted, really. I dislike moe, and all it's mindlessness, so much that I'll actively criticise it. I don't like most shojo, I don't like yuri - but I can see how other people like them, and that's fine. But with moe, I dislike it greatly, so much so that it irks me to see not one, but two examples of this pathetic excuse for 'entertainment' on a Best of 2007 list. And I'm perfectly entitled to that, thanks ^__^

Splitter wrote:
It is therefore misconstrued to say that moe is a matter of fans wanting cute girls to serve them.


No, it isn't ;]

DuelLadyS wrote:
Seriously though, it's just a bunch of opinions, and if the very idea of promoting a moe title is so offensive to you, by all means go find another website to read. I like both shows, but completely see how someone could easily hate one or the other (or both). It just so happens she liked Air enough to put it on the short list. It's not as if she hated Mushi-shi (it did get Shelf Worthy ratings as I recall.) So quit whining already.


But I like ANN, and isn't the whole point of that "discuss" button at the end of your article to, you know, "discuss" the article?
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Cowboy Cadenza



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:11 pm Reply with quote
Splitter wrote:
Cowboy Cadenza wrote:
DuelLadyS wrote:
CitizenGeek wrote:

Well, it is something terrible. I mean, it's sending the message that moe is good, better than series like Mushi Shi, even. Moe is driving so much in Japan now, I'd hate to think the same would happen over here.

And it does detract from Bamboo's article, as does the aforementioned lack of Mushi Shi.


So, beautifully drawn slow-paced melancholy show about silver-haired guy and cute girls= a waste of ink, but beautifully drawn slow-paced melancholy show about silver-haired guy and wispy monsters= instant classic? What's with the misogyny? Laughing

Seriously though, it's just a bunch of opinions, and if the very idea of promoting a moe title is so offensive to you, by all means go find another website to read. I like both shows, but completely see how someone could easily hate one or the other (or both). It just so happens she liked Air enough to put it on the short list. It's not as if she hated Mushi-shi (it did get Shelf Worthy ratings as I recall.) So quit whining already.


If that's all you got out of Mushishi, I'm pretty sure you're missing something.

Splitter, my point is that the characteristics of moe characters - the ones you mention - instill the feeling in the viewer that they want to take care of the characters, or indeed that the characters need to be taken care of. I don't really have anything against moe other than the fact that I'm not a huge fan of the genre, I'm just trying to explain why some people think it's a bad thing.


DuelLadyS actually generalized the premises of both shows. Air, like Mushishi, is far more than it's being claimed as as well. The point is that you are defacing an entire series because it has a childish big-eyed small-mouthed girl that has a monosyllabic catchphrase.

I understand your point. It's very easy to misconstrue the actions of characters with moe vibes as being subservient, but like all creative work, that comprehensive thinking is not of the creators but of the viewer. It always seems like it's guys that are going off on tangents about moe, and not the girls that it should be offending if your claim should hold any water. Also, it should be noted that moe extends to male characters as well, especially shota characters and traps. A key example of a male character with moe vibes would be L from Death Note. Believe me, this is not a female-specific characteristic.


I wasn't saying anything against Air in particular; I've already stated that I haven't seen it, so I can't say for sure if it's as good as Mushishi. My comment about Mushishi was completely separate from my comments about moe.

I know of you from the Adult Swim message boards, so if I'm correct, I believe the only problem here is that we have very different taste. I don't really like loli or moe, but at the moment I'm not really trying to be too critical of them either. I was merely trying to state why some people have problems with moe. There's no need to be so strident.
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