Forum - View topicShelf Life - Year in Reviews
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darcerin
Posts: 330 |
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I've been dying to reply to this all day.
To the people who are so against, Air, Rumbling Hearts, Kanon, etc: Have you actually WATCHED any of those shows? Seriously, now, or did you just hear they were in the "moe" genre and run screaming for the hills without giving them a chance? (No, Zac, this isn't directed at you, this is directed at certain opinions before and after yours!) While I only saw part of the first episode of Air when it was streamed online, I did see both sets of Kanon (not on this list, but same genre) and I fail to see where they show women being subservient to men ANYWHERE, and from what I've heard about Air and Rumbling Hearts, they're about the same as Kanon. (I shall be watching those as soon as possible to make sure I'm up to date for the next moe battle as well!) I'm a female and a feminist, and I *love* Kanon. If these girls were being shown as subserviant to men, you'd better believe I'd whip out the disgust and be right there with you banging the drums and burning the bras (mine first, please!). However, as far as Kanon goes (and quite possibly Air and Clannad and RH) your claims are invalid because these girls...act like girls. They're quiet, they're emotional, they're weak at points, they're strong at others, and sometimes, to make the ones we love happy, we're more than happy to make them dinner and serve them (not BE a servant!)...that's what we women ARE! We're not all Lara Crofts! (Show of hands which females *want* to be Lara Croft here? Not me, but that's just me...I don't like getting blood on my clothes.  )
Aside from the nature of the show, the artwork is AMAZING (Air, from what I've seen, is actually prettier than Kanon!) I want to see Air JUST for the animation, aside from the story. Can't say anything about RH yet, we shall see... What right have you to slam Bamboo for choosing Air and Rumbling Hearts? All she is doing is providing her opinion on shows she's either liked or disliked, and publishing them for ANN. In this case, she like Air and RH. So what? Say you didn't like it and move on. Or better yet, say nothing at all. To make it this big a deal and ridicule the shows into the ground (aren't you tired of it YET?) over her list is insane. Believe it or not, there are people that DO like these shows, and agree with Bamboo's opinion. Get over it and move on. And OMG, she didn't review Mushi-shi here. PLEASE. If you need validation, go write your own reviews and see how well you fare. She takes a lot of crap for the love of this job. I doubt she needs people like you who don't read, "This is only a SAMPLE of this year's best and worst", skimming her columns. Bottom line: Leave us with the shows we like, and we'll leave you alone with yours. But if you're going to bash shows, you'd have better done your homework, and have *valid* arguments. I can't *wait* till Kanon is released. Oh, I will be here the day Bamboo reviews it (oh please, say you will, Bamboo!)
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Splitter
 Posts: 1276 Location: Knockin' on Heaven's Door |
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She actually reviewed it in last week's column. Go read it ^^ |
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ikky
Posts: 76 |
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I like Air to some extent, but I feel the characters' personalities are too unrealistic to actually relate to them. The "moe" appeal feels forced when character traits are so obviously meant to cater to moe "fetishes" (not necessarily sexual, just not sure what word to use here).
Opposite of this would be something like Beck or Nana, where the characters have more realistic flaws. I realise they are not the same genre, but emotional drama should, in my opinion be realistic. Though, as a feminist, I am with darcerin on that the series are not offensive to women. The type of characters are simply not appealing to me. So really, the moe genre is just not my thing. (Would "Your definition of moe" be a good idea for a new thread, by the way?) Aaah, I actually have no idea where I am going with this. I don't oppose to Air being on here, but I can understand that other people do. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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CitizenGeek:
To some extent I can see where you are coming from. I don't like Moe either. It creeps me out. More importantly I dislike it because it's a gimmick. It allows anime to do well just by being all cute and Moe even while skimping on actual quality or substance. That I think is a very bad thing for anime. However, Just because Moe lets some anime do this doesn't neccissarilly mean all Moe anime will be that way. I haven't seen Air so I can't say, but it could absolutely be very good, Moe asside. I'll admit the comments about it kinda make me wonder but I'm still certainly willing to give Bamboo the doubt. I really don't think she would put it on this list just for being cute. If it's on there it is because it is a genuinely good anime. |
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Hirocan
 Posts: 1 Location: USA,IL. |
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I'm not going to lie Air TV made me almost cry when spoiler[that guy die to save the girl but in the end she died.]
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CitizenGeek
 Posts: 136 Location: Ireland |
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For the last time: YES, I have seen moe, quite a bit more than I wish I had seen, actually. I've watched a significant amount of Kannon, Clannad, AIR, Moetan (which was especially horrible) and Lyrical Nanoha and small amounts of other series. I haven't finished one of these series, but I think I'm entitled to an opinion on moe by this stage, no?
Moe's representation of women is not a realistic representation of women at all. There should be more strong female characters in anime, instead of helpless female characters that are designed with nothing else in mind but appeasing horny/lonely otaku. I want more Major Kusanagis, more Misato Katsuragis, more Dr. Atsuko Chibas and less Nayuki Minases, less Misuzu Kamios and less Nagisa Furukawas!
She published that list onto to a site that has thousands of comment-posting members, I'm pretty sure she realised that someone would not like her list, regardless of what she put on it, don't you think? Besides, it's obviously nothing personal so I'd appreciate if folks like yourself weren't so quick to overreact ;]
As if there are no "valid arguments" against Kanon or AIR /rolleyes
Indeed, moe is a bad thing. Is is creepy that these characters look so young. The characters of Lucky Star are supposed to be 17, yeah? Then why do they have the appearance of 9-year-olds?
Ah, melodramatic overreaction, I was expecting you. 
Looking forward to it! |
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zrdb
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I loved Air and Kanon 2006-shoujo lover that I am, I hated Beck-even though I like Greg Ayers from his work as Chrono in Chrono Crusade, Rumbling Hearts is one of my fav "soap opera" shoujo series, Disgaea was good-but not outstanding. Afro Samurai?!?!?! You gotta be kidding me! What a piece of tripe! Actually Beet the Vandel Buster wasn't bad fansubbed and the manga is ok. But # uno on my list was Shakugan no Shana-with Geneon gone unless someone else picks up season 2........? Lucky Star sucks-Lovely Complex was far more enjoyable-I really hope it gets licensed.
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GoodLuckSaturday
 Posts: 567 Location: Indiana |
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And I'm on the opposite end where the game series is actually one of my favorites, and I can't stand the anime. I just find it completely unwatchable, from both an adaptation point and from a standalone point. Certainly don't have a problem with it being in the dreck pile. 
I have no issues with the article at all. BECK, Air, and Rumbling Hearts are some of my favorite anime, I can agree that Afro Samurai should be watched once for the style (and likely only once, since nothing outside of the animation, Sam Jackson, or soundtrack is any good), and Beet is too trite for even me, who would be perfectly sated to watch nothing but shonen anime. |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Did you actually just type that? How is CitizenGeek holding an admittedly subjective view (one I happen to share with him, broadly speaking) about the content of Japanese cartoons bigotry? It's amazing - and ridiculous - how often words like "bigotry", "oppressed" and "prejudice" are thrown around on these boards anytime anybody says they don't like moe / loli / shota / fill-in-the-blank-with-your-lowest-common-denominator-socially-disfunctional-otaku-preference material. There's no problem with those who find it unpleasant to find such material increasingly prevelant in their hobby being vocal about their distaste. Equally, there's no problem with the looking-for-a-little sister / pre-pubescent maid / really, really non-threatening 2D imaginary anime friend (delete as applicable) brigade defending their, uhm, personal preferences. Disagreeing with CitizenGeek is fine. But throwing around words like "bigot" just makes you sound like a child from a sheltered upbringing encountering a different point of view for the first time in his life.
The Oxford English Dictionary has "Violent and unreasoning adherant of a creed or view" which seems to me to be a rather more logical definition of the word as it's generally used - according to your definition anybody who "obstinately" opines that God exists, for example, is a bigot. And I hardly think that falls within common usage of the word "bigot". So, going by the OED definition, nothing CitizenGeek has said has been violent and since he has explained his thinking on the matter, it's scarcely an unreasoned point of view either. |
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Splitter
Posts: 1276 Location: Knockin' on Heaven's Door |
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And this isn't prejudice? I watch, enjoy, and highly revere shows like Air, Kanon, and Lyrical Nanoha, so right away I'm a creep. You're right, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with others, but you and CitizenGeek are attacking the people you disagree with, saying that what we like is ruining the anime industry and catering to our "personal preferences". That is why I am defending moe as I am, because it is the people like you two that make it so I have to defend myself from accusations of pedophilia if I'm ever caught reading a Strawberry Marshmallow manga in public!
Again, how are you two any different? You assume that because we watch shows like Air and Rumbling Hearts that that's all we watch? I'm smack dab in the middle of a Baccano! marathon right now and absolutely loving it. Gurren Lagann is easily my favorite anime TV series of all time. You do not know me, just like you do not know everyone else that you blindly disgrace with that accusation.
Wiki's definition: A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions Free Online Dictionary's definition: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. Encarta's definition: intolerant person: somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views Web Dictionary's definition: a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own Oxford English Dictionary's definiton: a person who is prejudiced in their views and intolerant of the opinions of others... and the proof I rest my case. |
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zrdb
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So what's wrong with watching moe or shoujo? Aren't we all entitled to watch what we want-if a person expresses an opinion it's just that-an opinion. You don't have to agree with me or I with you, don't call me a bigot or whatever just because of it. If I watch some hentai once in a while does that make me a pervert? No.
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yeah yeah yeah. Moe! Creepy! Therefore all Moe must suck and be terrible. Do me a favor and don't act like you're agreeing with me. You entirely ignore and infact don't even quote the more important part of what I said. Just because something is Moe does not inherently mean it must be bad. I do think a lot of Moe gets by on no actual substance or is sometimes just an excuse for creepy people to look at little girls. However, once again that doesn't mean all Moe is this way. There can absolutely be and in all likelyhood are Moe anime that are genuinely good anime and aren't meant in a creepy way in the slightest. To say that all Moe shows must be terrible and creepy is just a completely unfair blanket statement. If you realise that but still think Air sucks, fine. But then thats your oppinion and you can't really complain just because The reviewer and many others don't share it. Also, I agree with Moomintroll. It may technically be "prejudice" but you're using a word with heavy connotations in its very literal sense. Also, accurate or not, to start calling people "Close Minded Bigots" is just flat out flaming. You should probably just stay out of this discussion if its getting you mad enough that you need to do that. I mean, Splitter, you're on a freaking internet forum. You don't have to defend yourself because you can so easilly just completely ignore it if you think someone is just making baseless attacks. You don't have to defend the honour of Moe. It doesn't matter. Also, calling people who like Moe pedophiles is attacking them, saying that Moe is "ruining the anime industry and catering to our personal preferences" really is a legitimate arguement. Moe in itself is a gimmick. By being all cute or "Moe" anime can appeal the the portion of fans who are into that. However becuase it can do well based soley on this gimmick it leaves fans who aren't into Moe right out of luck. Its very reasonable for these people to be concerned that the excess of Moe will result in a lack of anime that appeals to them. |
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CitizenGeek
Posts: 136 Location: Ireland |
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It's called "preference". Seriously, your choice of those words is very childish and I'd appreciate you stopped. What are you talking about? I never spoke ill of you, or of anyone that watches moe. My criticisms have been entirely of moe (the genre) itself. Neither I, nor anyone else, has called you a "creep".
Wow; did you actually read my post? Reading that comment, I seriously doubt it. I never said that moe was "all you watch", never once did I claim to know you. I'm baffled at this: it's like your making stuff up in order to personally attack me, and your doing it because I don't like moe? O_o
Seeing as how you seem to love moe, and how you see yourself as a noble "defender" of the genre, how about actually, you know, defending moe, rather than losing the plot because I don't like it ;]
Nothing wrong with watching shoujo, moe is a different issue altogether ....
Well, you said that moe creeped you out, and it creeps me out, too - so I thought that would kind of mean we were agreeing. But, obviously, I misinterpreted that or something, so, er, sorry. Last edited by CitizenGeek on Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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samuraijellyfish
Posts: 4 |
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Sorry 'bout that, from the name bamboo dong, I guessed male. Don't read the article that much, but it's something to remember in the future. |
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Moomintroll
Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Well, no. Quite the contrary in fact - it's judicial (in the sense of "having the function of judgement") not prejudicial. Prejudice is when they won't let you sit at the front of the bus because your skin's the wrong colour. There's a word you need to grasp and that word is "perspective".
I don't recall anybody saying any such thing. And what kind of person "reveres" a TV show? We're back to perspective again.
It is rather difficult to disagree with somebody without, when you get right down to it, saying they're wrong. And art (including anime / manga) is all about critical appraisal. If you want to take that personally it's your problem. And, actually, I don't think people like yourself are ruining the anime industry - I think the cowardly way that the anime industry panders to the niche but reliable market you're part of (rather than reaching out to a broader audience) is what's ruining the anime industry. This is suicide, not murder.
Poor flower. "Oh no! If people see me reading a comic featuring sexualised children that's written by a guy who used to create illustrated kiddy porn for a living they might think I'm not the kind of chap they want in the vicinity of their families! Help! I'm being oppressed! And it's all the fault of those guys on that internet forum!" 
Most people are smart enough to leave their fetishes indoors and away from that oh-so judgemental public gaze.
When and where did I (or anybody else) express any such opinion?
"Blindly disgrace"? You sound like a character in a particularly hammy shonen manga. And I don't need (or want) to know you - we're talking generalisations here. There is no other way to discuss a genre.
Dictionary definitions vary. Online dictionaries tend not to be very good relative to the more respectable of their print counterparts. The OED has, over the past century or so, been published in scores of editions and many formats (including the dinky little pocketbook edition you linked to). What's your point? Do you have one? You haven't actually denied that, in the context of this debate, my definition works rather better than yours or, indeed, defended the inherant flaw in your definition. To re-cap: according to your definition, absolutely everybody is a bigot unless they are an amoral, apolitical, agnostic with no strongly held beliefs with regard to any subject whatsoever. So, in other words, absolutely everybody the world over is a bigot and the word thus has absolutely no real meaning as a label whatsoever. Your case is weak. |
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