Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2008-01-04]
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Godaistudios
Posts: 2075 Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment) |
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In my experience, even without knowing which came first - I've almost always hands down preferred the original. I tend to put on my critical thinking cap and recognize the derivative. And now I'll counterpoint - you spend five to six months writing a story, working at it, gruelling at it - now a good editor that works with a writer helps to bring out the best in the talent of the author - not beat it down, before somebody decides to bring this up - since it means somebody else is now working on that orignal concept. You create your world, your story, your characters - they are like your children (and given that reference, maybe the author and editor are the parents) Now somebody comes along and deviates from it, changes it... and attempt to claim they understand the world and characters better than the person who wrote it. Yeah, I'm not buying it. Sorry, the author is the person who knows their children best here. With an author, the storytelling tends to be more concise, better paced, clearer - higher quality in terms of the storytelling, especially in the manga world. Why? Because studios now have to answer to ratings and advertisers - and have to get stuff out fast. Why do you think the missing Naruto head happened in that prior Answerman column? You think the person putting it together cared as much as Kishimoto when drawing it? it's not to say that it doesn't happen in the manga world, but I can assure you that from what I've seen, it's a much bigger deal when it comes to anime - especially since manga artists can self-publish and take stuff to doujinshi conventions if they so choose. Speaking on Doujinshi, there are some well written stories out there - but it still comes off as amatuerish when copying off of somebody else's work. I dare you to prove to me that the majority of doujin works are equally as good, if not surpassing the original content. Again, I'm not saying that the derivative work isn't a quality product, but I can't think of much where I preferred the anime over the manga when the manga came first - and vice-versa. I have almost always preferred the original to any adaptation, regardless of medium To me, it seems that those who derive just fail to capture the author's original vision, and as a result, the product feels shallow compared to the original. This is why I will use the term "better", because there is a higher degree of quality and care in that original product - and I defy you to tell me otherwise. |
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Godaistudios
Posts: 2075 Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment) |
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There is another problem of course with this whole Bandai=sci-fi argument - the same kind of list can be also made for ADV. Geneon had their share of sci-fi titles - but now with them gone, who picks up what? With all the diversification, it is very hard to tell - and much easier to look at studios like Kadokowa, Gonzo, Xebec and Sunrise to figure out who is going to do what anymore. Sure, six years ago, it was much easier to figure out who would be carrying what - but the industry is much different than it was just a few years ago. |
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Ai no Kareshi
 Posts: 561 Location: South Africa |
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In my experience, the anime version is usually better, except for where the story is changed dramatically.
For example, looking at Elfen Lied, I have found that changes to dialogue are usually for the better, and so is the exclusion of over-the-top jokes that spoil the serious mood of the story. There was also a scene where one character is present in the manga but abscent in the anime – the latter case seemed a lot more natural story-wise. Of course, now that I have read the manga, the dubious anime conclusion frustrates me to no end. There are a lot of great moments and plot twists in the manga that would have been exciting inclusions in the anime (the most important of which is the true ending). Here, however, there is really no anime version for comparison. Then again, I haven't read that much manga myself, so take my opinion as you will.  ;;
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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Just some nitpicking and clarification: dōjinshi != niji sōsakubutsu (二次創作物, literally "secondary creation"). While many dōjinshi are based on existing characters and/or stories created by other parties, there are still a good proportion of dōjinshi that are completely original. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Godaistudios:
And people who create anime don't work just as hard? The Director, Script Writer, etc. don't all work together in a similar way?
They're fictional. They are how you decide they are. You can't get them "right" or "wrong". You can get them good and bad though and while a poor director may fail to understand the world and characters and make poor choices, a poor writer can just as easilly create a poor world and poor character. An anime director in fact actually has the advantage of being able to look at the world and charaters and notice flaws the original author did not to improve uppon.
Yeah and it's not like Manga artists have any kind of deadlines or anything right?
yeah but thats just becuase Manga is more simple. Problems are going to be more subtle. Besides, you're talking a really bad flaw from a really long anime. The majority of the time inconsistencies in animation aren't nearly as bad.
dōjinshi seem amaturish because they are made by amaturs who have neither the artistic skill nor the story telling ability of actual manga artists. It has nothing to do with it being a derivative work. (and as Dormcat said, they are often not) Again, dōjinshi to Anime adaptations are apples to oranges since dōjinshi as you are talking about are spinoffs where as Anime we are discussing here are adaptations.
Okay, but how often do you see the adaptation before the original? If you see the original first, your going to be naturally biased towards it. Not becuase it is the true original but becuase it is the one you saw/read first. Its perfectly normal to assume be partial to the version you saw first and dislike changes you see in other versions. It's incorrect to assume you like it better because it was actually the original though. |
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Godaistudios
Posts: 2075 Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment) |
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Very true, which is what I was trying to suggest when I spoke of self-publication, but I wasn't very clear on that. I am very aware of the original production works, but I was looking to address this specific issue. |
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Godaistudios
Posts: 2075 Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment) |
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1) A manga artist normally under deadlines and editors, etc can self-publish orignal works and sell them at a doujinshi convention, thus avoiding any tampering to their work. 2) Derivative material sold at a doujinshi conveniton doesn't match up to the original content - adapted or otherwise. And you yourself admit that the majority of those derivative works are done by artists who lack the artistic or storytelling skills - but I argue that they also fail to capture the vision or the character that the original had, even with good storytelling skills.
I can easily disagree with this one. Anime was my introduction to fandom, not manga. Anime was what I wanted, what I watched. When I went back and read the manga after having seen the anime (in the cases where the manga was the original source) - I found that the manga was better - except in the cases where the manga was derived from the anime source. Case in point? The Eureka 7 manga was laughable - I thought it was shoddy and terrible. Had it been the orignal source, then it would have been one of those exceptions. When I found out it was made based off the anime though, I wasn't surprised in the slightest - and it made sense to me as to why I didn't care for it - the derivative lacked the feeling of the original and paled in comparison. Certainly, I'm sure if I think long on it, there are probably one or two titles out there where I felt that the adaptation was better, but again, we are talking exceptions and not the rule. (This is why they are called exceptions.) So no, I'm not "naturally biased" based on what I see first. As I've pointed out in prior posts here, if I read the book after seeing the movie - (where the book came first) I tend to prefer the book. |
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MokonaModoki
 Posts: 437 Location: Austin, Texas |
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Well, it ignores the fact that the real correspondence is that Bandai Entertainment is actually likely to license shows associated with another business unit of Namco Bandai (i.e. produced or distributed by Bandai Visual, made by Sunrise or shown on the Bandai Channel in Japan - @ 80% of their catalog I think). If Sunrise makes a mecha or space show then yes, Bandai may be very likely to pick it up here, but not enough more likely than any other company to assume anything before it happens (unless it is a Gundam show, in which case you can happily assume away). Conversely, the fact that Sunrise makes Gintama doesn't imply much about chances of Bandai Entertainment licensing it, but it doesn't say much about anyone else wanting it either. The categorizations are also overly inclusive to accurately establish much. A tremendous percentage of anime has some sci-fi, futuristic or fantastic elements. For any of the major players who haven't indicated they are avoiding the genre, proving that they like to license sci-fi anime isn't going to be particularly difficult. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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I had written the same thing two days ago, right below Top Gun's post, but it was deleted without a trace. 
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Godaistudios:
Sorry but I think you're biased. You're making all these claims that Manga artists work harder, care more, etc. Is there any actual proof to back that up though? - compared to the number of pages needed per week, anime output requires a great deal more to get done. Especially since manga artists do get to take time off while the anime continues needed to be aired. Yeah and way way more people work on an anime than a manga. Do you have anything to back up claiming that per person they actually have to work harder? Also, unless it is an exceptionally long series, they may be done sooner but that really has no effect on the finished product since they don't get any kind of break in between. - And my point is that the people working on the anime product don't feel the same loyalties and dedication that the original artists do. And how do you know? What proof do you have that there aren't manga artists who don't really care that much? What proof do you have that anime directors don't care just as much? - A manga artist normally under deadlines and editors, etc can self-publish orignal works and sell them at a doujinshi convention, thus avoiding any tampering to their work. How many self published Manga are relevant here at all? Also, there are plenty of OVAs and Movies that also avoid the extreme time contraints of TV anime. - Derivative material sold at a doujinshi conveniton doesn't match up to the original content - adapted or otherwise. And you yourself admit that the majority of those derivative works are done by artists who lack the artistic or storytelling skills - but I argue that they also fail to capture the vision or the character that the original had, even with good storytelling skills. Really? So tell me, how many doujinshi have you read that sucked even though the storytelling and artistry were as good as actual published manga. |
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Ai no Kareshi
Posts: 561 Location: South Africa |
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Godaistudios:
I'm with ikillchicken on this one. There's nothing wrong with insisting that the original work takes precedence when it comes to canon and such – they have the first say, after all, and like you said, it's their characters. But this doesn't mean the original will inescapably be better than the adaption. When a single author publishes his manga, one person is responsible for all aspects of the story – an extremely complex task. When his work is adapted to anime, the different tasks are split between people who specialize in their individual fields. It shouldn't be hard to conceive that one of them might find a few things that could be improved. Consider that, in the case of the manga being the original work, a manga artist might have chosen to write his own story differently had he a chance to redo it later on. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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You completely forgot about the importance of manga editors. |
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Ai no Kareshi
Posts: 561 Location: South Africa |
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It's more a matter of "didn't know" than "completely forgot". 
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Godaistudios
Posts: 2075 Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment) |
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You said I was biased and would be naturally biased towards whatever I read first. I countered it and disproved it. Stick to your original point or stop using the "bias" argument because you are starting to strawman here. I didn't say the manga artists necessarily work harder - but I do indicate that they do care about their characters more... and my proof really is based on the quality of the final product. My "harder" reference was meant to ask you to put yourself in the writer's shoes - as in the avenue of a novelist - though it certainly may apply to a manga author as well.
My point again, isn't about "working harder" it's about where the higher quality comes from... As I stated before, too many cooks spoil the broth - or did you bother reading that in my original post? Regading anime specifically, there are too many people working on that final product and so you lose the consistent pacing, consistent characterization, consistent storytelling that you get from the original creator...
Frankly, they don't have time to care... there is too much work to be done to cover everything needed... time is of the essence which is why a week by week series suffers more than an anime movie or OVA. As far as what "proof" I have otherwise? Since "care" is an abstract idea, you can only attempt to come to a conclusion based on the finished product.
And I'm sure most will agree that the OVA is a higher quality product than a TV series. Even so, with too many people working on it, there are still inconsistencies in the pacing, storytelling and characterization as compared to manga as a whole... Though what I find more interesting is that many of those OVA's and movies that you mentioned are original works, rather than based off a prior source and aren't necessarily derivative. My argument is more about derivative works, so movies and OVA's only hold so much relevance.
I've seen a large number of doujinshi - and often times, I've seen where the artistry was exceptional, but they lacked the storytelling ability... or really didn't understand the character. In fact, I can't recall a single doujinshi that I felt matched up to the original - my experience of doujinshi derived from original works places characters in non story situations, frequently imaginative, sometimes a good quality product... But you seem to miss my point in the end. I think that derivative works can have a good quality about them. I'm saying that it is even okay to enjoy the derivative product. I'm also still saying that the original is better, and that the derivative product lacks the originals quality and pales in comparison to it. I'm also allowing that there are exceptions to this, but they are "exceptions." So if I'm allowing for these exceptions, which I have from the very beginning, why are you still arguing against this - unless you happen to think that the anime product is almost always better than the manga for different reasons than I stated? What is the point that you are trying to argue here? I am saying the original is better because it is more focused and consistent, is less time pressued (because I will state that 15 pages of manga is less work than animating a half hour episode), and fewer hands are "spoiling the broth."
As dormcat mentioned, there are manga editors out there - I mentioned them too - which is why I call the author and the editor the "parents". I think the importance of a manga editor is to help bring out the best in the author - the author is still the one doing the majority of the creative work. At least you and are in agreement about the canon. The problem is, when you split up the tasks, each person taking on the task has their own interpretation of how the character is or should be - and they all get pitched to the director - and even the director looks at it and has all these influences around him - so you wind up with a different feel - and again, the end product in the anime is, inconsistent pacing, inconsistent characterization, inconsistent storytelling. My points and reasoning aren't really that hard to fathom, are they? And again, I admitted time and again that there is room for exceptions - such as is the case when you talk about a manga author wanting to go back and re-write something. How often does this happen though? Is there some regular event that I'm not aware of where manga authors go back and change their work all the time so that it becomes the rule and not the exception? All writers that I've met never truly feel "done" with their work - but the work is what it is. Once it is what it is, it's ready to go out, and most writers go on to work on other projects and other inspirations rattling around in their heads. Sure, they may comment on their prior work and say they wish they had done something different - but they don't go back and change it, instead they add another layer of character to their original work - assuming it is relevant to the story. [EDIT: Please try to keep everything in one post by using the Edit button as opposed to making consecutive replies. Thanks. -TK] Last edited by Godaistudios on Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:16 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Ai no Kareshi
Posts: 561 Location: South Africa |
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How often a writer goes back to change their work is irrelevant. Most of the time, author's don't have that option, after all (how do you change something that's already been published?). I merely used the scenario as an example. My point is that there may be things even the original author would have changed had he the opportunity. When the manga is adapted to anime, the staff have the chance to improve on these very things. I guess my point is that changes to the story aren't necessarily against the author's better judgment. Since you've emphasised that you allow for exceptions, though, I see now that your argument is not that the original is always better than the adaption as I had initially thought, so I won't be pushing the argument any further. 
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