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Shelf Life - Magic Users Club


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Steel Angel



Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 274
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:01 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:

It's really really weak to offer up "well you probably just downloaded it so you're wrong." If what you say is true aren't there enough actual arguements for what you're saying that you don't need to resort to this?


I think your missing her point.

She's asking if the ones who are arguing her opinion (which she clearly already gave multiple examples of in the series as to why she has those conclusions and dislikes) if they even bought the series since they "like it so much", or are they just arguing for the sake of arguing.

By asking if they at least bought the title, thus putting money where their mouth is, then she is conceding to evidence that not only did they like the show, they also bought it because they liked it, and at that point it is simply a difference of opinion, and not arguing just for the sake of arguing.

At least, thats what i get from it.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:03 am Reply with quote
Yeah, okay I can see your point. I still find it offtopic though. It still seems to be saying that if they didn't buy it it somehow invalidates what they said. Maybe they didn't like it enough to buy it but still thought it was better than the review said. Or maybe they are a person who never buys at all so their not buying means nothing. I just don't think whether they bought it or not is directly connected to the discussion at hand.
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missing_soul



Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:27 am Reply with quote
Quote:
What I don't endorse is girls begging for attention, begging for love, on a stage in front of the entire school wearing lingerie and flashing your ass while posing on all fours. And then the guy saying, "I'm glad I got to see that side of you!"


Everyone, please notice it's a personal matter. The same happened to me when reading fantasy books of feminist writers. The bias could get just too disgusting.

On the other hand even if I'm far from the six feet tall or cool or gentle or strong (or everything else) type it happened even to me that young women (not girls) have gone frenetics in their attempt to catch me (biological clock, you know, and four of them tried to go after me because they set off each other).

So the described situation unfortunately is far from fantasy. People just could do anything if they are in a frenzy over something (just think about sales time in a mall).

On the other hand it is of course possible to judge people (kids) who fantasize over being the target of unsolicited mass attention (let's say a winner on a sports field, a great warrior etc). I just don't see the point of that.

1) Anime characters are not real life characters. When someone takes them so seriously that he/she outright copies their behavior, that's a problem witch probably originates in his/her family (I'm not speaking of cosplay of course)

2) Girls probably won't copy this kind of behavior except when trying to catch the Cool Guy. In that case everything is permitted isn't it? You're probably just a little bit biased in your personal opinion about girls and women folk (I really dislike this American way of calling people females and males. In my language that's amount to call someone a beast).

3) TV, video and books are a medium witch don't let the viewer "talk back". It's kind of quite hard to live through when you are offended in your own values and principles .

4) The solution is: don't watch anime you don't like, don't buy the book you don't like.

On the other hand it's a problem for someone who does it for a living. Perhaps you should ask someone else to write an opinion on titles you personally loath and can't watch. It's for the shake of your own health.

A last cynical remark: I don't suppose this kind of judgment passing is obligatory to please the powerful feminist lobby.
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Steel Angel



Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 274
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:53 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Maybe they didn't like it enough to buy it but still thought it was better than the review said.

Which would validate her point of why she said she had a hard time deciding whether or not it was shelf worthy or not.
Quote:

Or maybe they are a person who never buys at all so their not buying means nothing. I just don't think whether they bought it or not is directly connected to the discussion at hand.

This is why i asked if she was opening Pandora's Box, anyone who reads the forums regularly knows exactly how that type of discussion can go and I'd have to say most of us try to avoid it, it always turns into an endless argument, but like the review itself, those arguments are highly based on opinion.

Reviewing material and putting what you thought about it is a thankless job as is, as there are bound to be people who disagree with it, no matter who you are. Unlike some on the forum, Bamboo not only gives her opinion, but says why she came to that conclusion, and at that point its up to the reader to decide if they agree with her or not. It really is that simple.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:01 pm Reply with quote
missing_soul wrote:

On the other hand even if I'm far from the six feet tall or cool or gentle or strong (or everything else) type it happened even to me that young women (not girls) have gone frenetics in their attempt to catch me (biological clock, you know, and four of them tried to go after me because they set off each other).


Uh huh. It's totally realistic, because it happened to you!!

Quote:

So the described situation unfortunately is far from fantasy. People just could do anything if they are in a frenzy over something (just think about sales time in a mall).


Yep, I remember in college I had these three chicks whose biological clocks all went off at the same time and they totally went into frenetics over me, and so they had cooking and cleaning contests to see who would win my heart and it culminated into a lingerie show at the school's amphitheater. Ultimately I chose Kanoko-chan because she cleaned the fastest and had the nicest ass!

Quote:

2) Girls probably won't copy this kind of behavior except when trying to catch the Cool Guy.


You're speaking from experience of course as mentioned above when three girls all had their biological clocks go off at the same time and went frenetic then they had a lingerie show to see which of them could catch you.

Quote:

In that case everything is permitted isn't it? You're probably just a little bit biased in your personal opinion about girls and women folk.


Biased toward what? Fairness? Although Bamboo is a woman so maybe it's just her biological clock going off! Those women folk and their frenetics!!

Quote:

4) The solution is: don't watch anime you don't like, don't buy the book you don't like.

On the other hand it's a problem for someone who does it for a living. Perhaps you should ask someone else to write an opinion on titles you personally loath and can't watch. It's for the shake of your own health.


Okay then sir I offer the position to you, since you can bring such a wealth of personal experience to your expert reviews of anime. Please be sure to let us know when it's OK to be offended by anime that's blatantly degrading to women and when it's not, because you know best.

Quote:

A last cynical remark: I don't suppose this kind of judgment passing is obligatory to please the powerful feminist lobby.


Well we are beholden to the powerful feminist lobby and they do read ANN every day and carefully monitor everything the staff says, so we have to make sure that we please them by falsely accusing totally realistic anime shows like Magikano of being misogynist. You caught us on that one!!
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 3904
Location: CO
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:00 pm Reply with quote
missing_soul wrote:

2) Girls probably won't copy this kind of behavior except when trying to catch the Cool Guy. In that case everything is permitted isn't it? You're probably just a little bit biased in your personal opinion about girls and women folk (I really dislike this American way of calling people females and males. In my language that's amount to call someone a beast).


So when they're trying to catch the Cool Guy, it's okay to have lingerie shows? Really? Throw all her self respect out the window and use her BODY to catch a guy? Because when she's trying to catch the "Cool Guy" (which in this case is obviously you, with your plethora of women and their krazy biological clocks), it's okay to say, "Here, take my body! This is the best I can offer! Also, I can serve pizza and cold beer in lingerie!!"?

You disgust me.

And, being a woman, I guess I am biased towards the image of strong, independent women.

Then again, maybe I'm just on the rag. Damn those pesky cycles!!!
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 16935
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:50 pm Reply with quote
Maybe the women here can answer me this question. Why do some women, not saying the ones here but just the women that do this, actually do stunts like the above mentioned to get the "cool guy?" While not exactly the same as mentioned above I have seen similar things happen in an attempt to get a guy. I have never understood this tradition of wanting to get the cool guy even though he's already had sex and impregnated your 2 best friends and dropped them both for the other girl and while you're talking to him he's telling his other cool guy friends how he banged this other chick in the back of his car. I'm just honestly curious as to why some women actually would do this for such a prized pick of a man.

Quote:
Well we are beholden to the powerful feminist lobby and they do read ANN every day and carefully monitor everything the staff says, so we have to make sure that we please them by falsely accusing totally realistic anime shows like Magikano of being misogynist. You caught us on that one!!


Do the anime companies you take bribes and kick backs from know this Zac? It might cause a conflict of interests.
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missing_soul



Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:32 pm Reply with quote
Dear Zac,

I still can't find the original post I reflected upon. Knowing that I can't find that post; the quote in my post seems to be wrong and puts the whole thingy in a very strange light.

I wonder how comes Zac doesn't accuse me to troll around. Why isn't there a "troll" emoticon anyway? I want to troll officially this time. Not because I like Magicano. There's some necessary character and other development involved before you really could call yourself a fully fledged troll. You can't become one overnight by a touch of magic(ano) Wink

A) Suppose I really replied to an imaginary post
From my point of view there's no point to follow the previous line of discussion any more, I don't even brother to dodge your satirical ax (A troll does not dodge an axe. I just ignore it and forge ahead).

You know Zac some girls and women are silly, go in a frenzy, and they could set off each other. All that's a fact of life, a premise you don't have to prove except with examples and I don't brother to give you more. I'm not engaging in a "please prove God exists" kind of debate. That one is for intellectually retarded people.

I also won't try to prove making girls happily clean is not a form sexism. It is. Anime repeats this scenery to nausea in order to ensure a socially preferred behavior. Anime does that a lot in other subjects too. In this case Japanese socially expected behavior is an American taboo.

Lone guys (in more happy culture they are called bachelor, and Oh, my goddess, how long and gory would be to open a sociological debate on that subject) also clean their apartments. Students leaving in dormitory (at least in Europe) does it too even if they are males. Better, my mother asked me to use the vacuum cleaner and I did it, because I always was a good obedient boy. Is it a coming out then?

Anyway using that hacking tool (your satirical ax) is a poor form of debate. .

B) Suppose I didn't reply to an imaginary message
Then you understand what I'm going to write there. Your columnist getting excited over imagined or real sexism is not my problem. Girls happily cleaning places are plenty in anime, are you sure companies will be happy with your aggressive approach (you're the editor in chief, no? Youn defend her position, no? So this became your approach) if you follow in this track? Oh wait, sorry I troll again. That of course your job.

I just hope she'll fare well.

This time I won't ask your pardon for shouting. Trolls do shout all the time.
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MokonaModoki



Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 437
Location: Austin, Texas
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:41 pm Reply with quote
So as an aspiring keeper of harems, am I to infer from this review of Magikano that lingerie shows are actually effective or ineffective as a harem-building exercise?

*runs and hides*

edited to fix spelling of the show before Psycho 101 gets me


Last edited by MokonaModoki on Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 16935
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:41 pm Reply with quote
What the hell was the point of your convoluted and confusing post missing_soul? All I got out of it was "blah blah blah I like my mommy blah blah blah I'm a troll blah blah blah Zac deleted my post and I'm gonna cry. There a real point you wanna make besides whining because we all won't worship you because you can get a harem of stupid little girls to fight over you? And for the love of God if you're going to debate the series and points made spell the damn show right. It's M A G I K A N O. There is no goddamn C in it. English may be your second language, judging by your grammar, but surly you can spell the title of the show right since it's in the bloody article itself.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:28 pm Reply with quote
Missing_Soul's posts sound like they're being translated by Babelfish.
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missing_soul



Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:36 pm Reply with quote
Dear Psycho 101,

Psycho 101 wrote:
What the hell was the point of your convoluted and confusing post missing_soul? All I got out of it was "blah blah blah I like my mommy blah blah blah I'm a troll blah blah blah Zac deleted my post and I'm gonna cry.


Where did I wrote such a thing? Please quote me Rolling Eyes

Psycho 101 wrote:

There a real point you wanna make besides whining because we all won't worship you because you can get a harem of stupid little girls to fight over you?


Please correct me, but I don't remember writing I like Magicano. Rolling Eyes

Psycho 101 wrote:

And for the love of God if you're going to debate the series and points made spell the damn show right. It's M A G I K A N O. There is no goddamn C in it. English may be your second language, judging by your grammar, but surly you can spell the title of the show right since it's in the bloody article itself.


Sorry Zac, I admit I was mistaken. This is the poorest form of debate. Besides dear Psycho 101, why do you suppose I can't spell Magicano correctly if I am a fan of the genre?

Back to the one meaningful line of your post:

Psycho 101 wrote:
What the hell was the point of your convoluted and confusing post missing_soul?


The post I can't find indicated Zac has a columnist who comments an anime on the basis of her own - justified or not - strong feelings against the sexist image of a girl who cleans the house or against the image of girls who compete in doing this or whatever. She could or could not be right in her judgment and Magikano could or could not be the worst published anime of the year.

I suggested - not to Zac, just generally - that it's not a good thing to subject a poor columnist - a human being - to endure such a hard life and watch this kind of anime because it's bad for her health. Anime is not a medium you could debate with. She's spilling it out in her work. This - I think - is not good for ANN, but I troll here again, according to...

Zac who had the pleasure to answer my post writing something about me trolling right over his job description. Err he didn't actually use the "T" word. Part of my post is a trolling answer to Zac's satirical ax (a stylish answer because he handled that ax with such a gusto). Another part is - I think - a justified question: does ANN comment anime on the basis on personal orientation and prejudices or solely on the quality of artwork in the given context? Again, to cut out the unnecessary debate: Magikano could or could not be the worst published anime of the year.

Mark my point: I hate the guts of feminist fantasy novel makers. Perhaps it's my fault to comment everything through my filter (but I suspect strongly most people just does that without admitting it).

So I am not and will be never an able columnist in that field (fantasy books produced by feminist writers), and if someone would oblige me to read these books I will simply troll on him. I am not speaking about Zac of course, but about a hypothetical situation.

Other silly part of the debate was: is Magikano's basic "plot" (girl harem going crazy over a guy) is a justified one based on real world life. I am not even sure there was someone engaged in this debate except me. My answer - as surprising as it could be - is YES. My answer to the other very silly question - would they engage in a cleaning and cooking contest - is likely NO. However I am not sure about the cooking part. The World is after all a huge place. And part of the male half of the world do like eating. Besides we are not alone.
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missing_soul



Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:38 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Missing_Soul's posts sound like they're being translated by Babelfish.


Sorry Zac, I suppose you speak Japanese. I hope you have nice memories about reactions like that.
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missing_soul



Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:09 pm Reply with quote
missing_soul wrote:
Zac wrote:
Missing_Soul's posts sound like they're being translated by Babelfish.


Sorry Zac, I suppose you speak Japanese. I hope you have nice memories about reactions like that.


On second thought I am really interested to know how Japanese reacts in a similar situation.

Zac?
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:11 pm Reply with quote
missing_soul wrote:

On second thought I am really interested to know how Japanese reacts in a similar situation.

Zac?


Honestly I'm not really sure what you're asking me here.
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