Forum - View topicNEWS: 3 Japanese Men Arrested, Charged with Uploading Anime
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Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Most art is ultimately derived from something else - but reasonable and moderate derivation isn't covered by copyright. You have to be pretty blatant in order to fall foul of the law so I'm not sure I see a real problem there. Similarly, whilst fanfic and AMVs are technically illegal, so long as nobody is making them too public or expecting to make money off them, nobody seems to care much. Probably because there is no argument, as there is with downloads (whether or not you support that argument), that those things effect revenue. Again, I don't see a major problem there.
That doesn't have to be so. It's perfectly normal for civil fines to be charged without any kind of court case (parking, speeding, littering etc.). Presuming the method of tracking the destination of the download is proven to be reliable, there's no reason the same couldn't be true of downloads (though, as I said before, I think loss of service from the ISPs might be a better solution than financial fines).
That's not the anime industry's fault and it shouldn't be their problem. Hopefully, one day you'll have a better job and more disposable income - until that time comes, however, you have no special right that entitles you to get everything for free. I thought "work hard, make money, buy stuff" was the American dream?
So why bother entering the debate? You're wasting everybody's time - including your own. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Ok, Joshua-sensei
How about fansubbers as the people at the party passing around the pot, but when the cops show up, they're out the back door & long gone, leaving you to get busted. They're so anonymous according to all the downloaders-"How ya gonna bust them?!" So if you get busted, do you think they're gonna pitch in for your lawyer? Your buddy who made the copy off tv would if he were a real friend. I don't have to have HARD evidence to know shrinkage caused by shoplifting means the stores have to charge me more for what I buy. It's called COMMON SENSE. Downloaders have been plugging their ears & going "La,la, la" forever. The type of fansubbers has changed from the days of aquiring a scratchy VHS copy. Back then a lot of the fans were proselytizing, trying to spread the good word, get people interested in BUYING anime, just like in my headbanging days we'd latch onto bands & call the radio stations trying to get their songs played so that others could hear them & our bands could make it big. How often do you see the current round of downloaders brag they don't pay for anime & those who do are stupid? I saw one person here voice the thing my teen's heard-cheering for the current industry problems because that means they'll be able to download everything when the American anime industry vanishes.
You're suggesting that if people didn't download & bought all their anime that they did buy Monster would not have been licensed sooner? Just because I manage to avoid the crash because some idiot is too busy talking on their cell phone rather than paying attention to their driving doesn't mean I'm unharmed. I had to brake, or swerve, or perform a dangerous move to cover for that person's thoughtlessness. Cause & effect Karma When anime companies are saying DOWNLOADING IS KILLING US!!!! Downloaders start wanting hard evidence. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt. An autopsy on the bleeding body of the victim os a train crash because MAYBE the person had a heart attack. Yeah. Excuses. Excuses. People are good at that. Tell someone who got a ticket for their dog off a leash they're going to criminal court. "I'm a criminal?" Broke a law. Criminal court. There's a reason for that law. Geneon paid attention to us gals in a way no other anime company does. Funi expressed interest in Hellsing & Black Lagoon. No talk of the chick titles.
I said MacArthur Park cake, didn't I? (I think that I can't take it cause it took so long to make it & I'll never find that receipe again) (Our tastes are obviously vastlyu different. The only reason I bought the think-pak of Onegai Teacher was Soichiro Hosi because I found the anime insipid. I remember being so excited to catch it at con & being so incrediblyu disappointed. I wasn't impressed with the Aishteru, Baby manga if that's the title you were aiming for. Story of Saiunkoku's a different matter-often compared to 12 Kingdoms with a very strong female lead. ) You can't get them so they're irreplaceable. I come from a place where I want to recompense the people who make the stuff that pleases me, not dine & dash. How do you do that, downloader? How do you tell the makers of He Is My Master "Thank you for making something that has given me pleasure?"
fine & jail time is possible, but most prosecuted apparently tend to get a combination of that or fine & probation which probably includes terms involving computer usage. This also includes taping a movie in a theater with no plans for monetary gain (i.e. making a copy to watch at home for one's personal use), meaning the actual copy has never left the hands of the theater showing it, just like downloaders' argument they aren't stealing because the copy of the anime never leaves the hands of the owners. It's possibly similar to art forgery in a way.
My understanding is Linux says go for it with our blessing. Anime companies are pleading for this to stop & you all are saying "You can't stop us! Mwuhahaha!"
We've come up with 5%-15% of Americans downloading (is this illegal, or does it include those who go to YouTube, & other sites that are legal or perceived by the ignorant masses as legal?). That means 85% of Americans are blissfully living outside this whole mess.
But buying a legit copy & recompensing the makers is the accepted manner of artists being paid. Anything else is stealing their effort because you or a tv network haven't purchased the work to listen to or broadcast. I know lots of people who do buy the Japanese product. I have an account at CDJapan & have bought many, many cds from them even though I don't know what they're singing about. If I'm lucky, I can find a place on the nmet that has someone's translation so I'll know, but not knowing what Takehito Koyasu & Tomokaza Seki are singing about on Red Suns doesn't decrease my enjoyment of how well their voices compliment one another on the duets. I may not know what any of the Angelique character songs are about, but I can enjoy the sound, just as people around the world enjoyed the Beatles (I've seen the comment many times of people saying they learned English from Beatles lyrics) Again, minority view. A lot of people are ok with listening to art in a foreign language with a loose translation (like an outline) or a friend explaining what's going on. Everyone who sees Wagner's Ring Saga has to speak German? Don't think so. All opera fans need to speak Italian? No. |
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Vortextk
 Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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A japanese case about japanese men uploading japanese television shows? Oh, let us start a fansub/downloader debate. Never seen one of those before.
Good work guys. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I'm aware of that reasoning, but in this case my problem with his point was that he said in one line that it was an intended restriction that "non-japanese aren't allowed to see it" and on the next speaks of circumventing that restriction via import. Either it's a valid restriction or it's not. The "theft" discussion is something I've had plenty of times and really is out of place on that particular item.
It includes youtube as it's illegal as well. But consider that these numbers are increasing as more and more people get broadband. What is now 5-15% will in the future be much larger than that. It's unlikely anything the industry does will stop the trends of more people to do what benefits them. This could also benefit everyone else, if they'd figure out how to utilize the inherent advantages of copying. Sadly the industry is almost always behind the consumer, but it's expected.
Your understanding is correct, but let me point out that there are far more people who pirate windows than use linux. This is similar to the very substantial group of people who would rather download anime than watch free (or near free) TV. That's because media is not interchangeable, and the main reason I believe the industries main job should be to figure out how to develop channels that are reasonable for the majority of people (those who don't value collecting DVDs).
My definition of reasonable and moderate derivation isn't in line with yours, however. Mine would include fanfiction and AMVs, which currently fall outside the scope of "reasonable derivation" under the law. At the very least I would have fanfiction fall into that scope, and AMVs would if they were non-commercial. Another non-commercial example would be games or mods which could benefit from less restrictions on use of content from other games such as models, music, etc. |
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tygerchickchibi
 Posts: 1448 |
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Heavy fine, I suppose whatever it should be. I could care less, sucks if they got caught but crap happens. It's in Japan's jurisdiction to do so, not the US. That's just my opinion, you don't have to press me for answers, If it makes it worse, then they'll have to find alternatives, or they could just piss people in Japan off. I'm guessing that people are concerned because it hurts the possibility of fansubs? I feel apathetic somewhat about this today, it's odd. |
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Moomintroll
Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Participation isn't mandatory. Xanas - But is anybody actually going after those people? If not, isn't it a moot point? |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I don't like the fact they have the ability to prevent something that has no effect on them.
Examples include DBZ, Star Wars, Warcraft, etc. Projects using names or material from those have been shut down in the past, and I'm sure that's not everything. Anyway, whether or not they use the ability as much as they can I sure don't like it when they do. I also think much of what they don't prevent is out of ignorance, if someone goes and points it out to them they tend to be a lot more likely to pursue the issue. |
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Fallout2man
Posts: 274 Location: San Diego, CA |
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There's a difference though. Speeding can result in loss of life. It's dangerous and has a far more immediate and direct harm to society. Downloading on the other hand is hard to catch, hard to stop and the only impact it has is on a small subset of businesses. You also need to look at it from a logistics POV. If you were to keep it illegal with the same level of enforcement like it is now, you'd still have all the same negative effects occur. You'd change nothing. If you tried to crack down harder on it, all that would happen is clever software programmers would gather together and invent the next new protocol that's beyond tracking. As well, even IF they didn't for you to have any real logistical effect you'd need to put at least 25% of those downloading away to start scaring people up. Do you know how draining that'd be to find, try and put an extra twelve and a half million people in prison, probably for at least a year?
The problem is what it'd take to be effective. You seem to be under the impression that nobody's been trying. On the contrary the RIAA and MPAA have taken on significant losses to pursue downloaders. They were ineffective however. Why? Well first of all the laws they wanted got struck down or had key parts of them thrown out. This is because to catch downloaders you have to forsake either judicial oversight or privacy to make it convenient for the record label to pursue bulk lawsuits against individuals. So they lost their powerful tools, secondly a lot of their cases were made using automated software or reports from third party companies. They often treaded into legal gray area to make their cases and as is being shown more often then not they're losing those cases for that reason. So far they've had one, and only one victory (and even that's being appealed) in the courts out of all the cases they've pursued. Remember here, these are some of the richest, most powerful companies on earth. Why is it now that after eight years they've not had any real success outside of itunes? They aren't going to just roll over and let themselves die, so I seriously doubt the idea they haven't been going after this with everything they've got. Do you see now why I'm skeptical about enforcement? People have been trying very hard, but there just isn't a way to make it effective that's worked. Lawsuits just cost too much, and anything that makes them cheaper or more convenient ends up infringing on the rights of the rest of the uninvolved people in not-intended but inevitable ways.
Emotional distress caused by concern over a friend or family member is not a practical reason to oppose something. The law must concern itself with utilitarianism and not emotion. While we're at it why don't we make it illegal for girl's to stay with their deadbeat boyfriends since that causes undue stress and can destroy families and lives too.
Hurting yourself shouldn't be a crime and neither should be sabotaging one's own life. If someone steals or shoplifts that's already illegal, we don't need drug charges for that.
Throwing them in jail? No, rehab on the other hand CAN help but doesn't always. However throwing someone in jail JUST for ingesting something if they haven't done anything else just seems ridiculous.
and is compulsive gambling illegal? Do you get where I'm going? There's more to it than just saving families or nice happy emotions. It's much more complicated then that.
Already happened, the thing is there's a difference between what's going on. I buy anime because I want to support it, but I also understand the distinct difference between tangible and intangible as well as maintaining a strong sense of independent morality. People aren't just going to change like that, if that were the case downloading would be going down and not up. Yet as time passes more and more people catch on and this whole thing grows into a bigger and bigger issue. You're also not addressing the why, just like I said. Drug addicts turn to drugs in a lot of places to escape a life they'd rather forget. That's why throwing people in jail doesn't do much long term because the conditions that drive people to do drugs still exist and aren't being addressed. Similarly too with downloading the key point here is that anything in its digital form is valued at nil. People don't believe that a file is worth something. They'll buy a disk, a VHS tape, clothes, a car, or a TV, but a file to them seems worthless. Why? Because people put value in tangible things they can hold and that they'd need to take effort to duplicate or make themselves. To them a file is worthless because with a double click of the mouse it can be replicated a million times. Sure there's a ton of work in the initial production but people rarely ever see that far ahead and only think in immediate terms. Like when you buy a DVD, people pay for that because to them they think the disk has value, they don't think too much about the value of the movie on it except insofar as they want that movie. However the disk itself is the primary object of value. Now there have already been educational campaigns done on this sort of thing, and so far it's just not working. People aren't buying what the MPAA/RIAA are saying when they went to middle and high schools. If people are resisting this message and the trends continue that shows what appears to be an unstoppable cultural phenomena. Law enforcement won't change how someone values a file, it'll just make them invent better ways to avoid the law. Look at the evolution of software used since napster, it's come a very long way. If you press downloading again with the law you'll just get software that's even harder to track and catch people with. Press that and more software will come out. You'd have to go totalitarian like I suggested earlier if you wanted to ever succeed legally. Of course then that makes you have to ask yourself if it's worth ending privacy and destroying the internet just to enforce our copyright laws as they stand now. Do the ends truly justify the means?
How do you know for sure something is or isn't going to be licensed though? Haruhi in fact, if I remember right, got licensed exactly because it was so highly downloaded. You can't predict what someone will do and up until the point they at least state that it's going to be made available you don't know. If they download after the fact that's one thing, but until it's made available or announced no one has any real idea so they don't know if they should wait or not and from there if they really did like the show they would buy it. I highly doubt there were many legitimately lost (as in would have bought but chose not to) sales in that case.
Improbable! :p
Another apples to oranges comparison. A better comparison would be wanting a cool action figure and then downloading schematics off of the web and making a copy in your 3D printers. To paraphrase John Booty: There's a difference between me copying all of the books in your house and me taking all of the books in your house. Physical comparisons don't work because in that case you're causing an actual, tangible direct loss by depriving inventory that took effort to create beyond the effort to figure out the process. Each cookie cost money to produce, a file on the other hand does not cost any money or effort to copy and it does not cause a direct loss. Losing money and not making any money are two very different things.
You're looking at it from an overly emotional perspective, please try and be pragmatic for a moment. Economically speaking, what's the damage being done here? All that matters in the end, especially in business, is the bottom line and how it's being effected. The only sort of damage any sort of downloading does is in the form of lost sales. This is where by having to compete with a free alternative someone chooses the free, albeit illegal alternative. Now this doesn't cause a direct financial hit to the bottom line but it DOES affect projected sales and estimates for future spending that businesses make based on how well they think they'll sell. Now while this is a potentially negative effect on a bottom line and economically it is in nowhere near the same league as causing direct financial damage that actually removes money from the bottom line, versus falling short of predicted sales. Therefore it can't be considered the same as fenced stolen goods because at some point in the object's life it was removed at cost from a retailer which then had to get a new copy from its distributor which got it from the manufacturer which cost them money because they had to produce a free replacement copy. On the other hand with downloads nothing is removed at cost and in many cases the first person in the chain did indeed have to purchase the item in question. Very different things indeed.
Just because something is illegal does not mean it should be or speak of the morality of the subject. From a pragmatic perspective the law's purpose is to create a functioning human society with the greatest net benefit for the entire species. Non-commercial copying of a product not currently available in your nation does not effect a company's bottom line in any tangible way. It causes no even potential financial damage and therefore it would lend to the idea it is not a horrible thing to do. Just because someone downloaded something that was not licensed does not obligate them to buy it when it is licensed.
In some cases yes, this is true and this is where we get into the lost sales thing. This friend denied a sale to that movie theater. Now the key point here though is he never cost them money directly, but he did affect their projected income. It's up to people to decide what they're going to do and in the end a lot of places do observe a code of ethics about things. Not everyone does, you're right. However that's why actions against fansubbers who don't take their material down after it's been licensed would be more effective. The community still has some of a sense of ethics and by providing some nudges to get that going again it'd probably be far more effective. Would the files still exist somewhere after the fact? Yes, but there's really no stopping that in any practical way. We have to focus on minimizing and marginalizing the problem as best as is reasonable. Like you just said before with your estimated shoplifting losses, below a certain level it just costs too much to bother beefing things up.
Because you keep using apples to oranges comparisons. This makes me think you don't understand why someone believes the value is nil. You keep using physical goods, shoplifting, tangible damage. Those just aren't applicable examples in this case.
This is where we get into the fundamental difference we have. This was what I was trying to point out before the last thread got locked. You seem to fail to make a distinction between the tangible and intangible, between direct losses and lost sales. Just because something has personal or emotional value to you doesn't reflect at all on actual tangible costs or market value. You think very emotionally about this probably because you're a more artistic person however I have to look at everything from a very cold and logical point of view. The point of the law and morality is for the overall survival and comfort of the human species on a whole, within practical constraints, not to just make some people happy, feel good or to give someone something they feel entitled to. In this case for instance, the death of that cat, while it is sad from an emotional POV, from a more practical one if that cat was a feral cat, then it really caused no actual harm to human society. Now if someone owned that cat, that's an entirely different subject. However the point is that a feral cat by itself has no real practical value to human society. From an emotional POV we might think it's cute, but who's going to feed it, and take care of it, and would they even be able to after it's reached a certain age? Emotional thinking can be useful at times, but it's a double-edged sword. In this case it seems as an artistic person you seem to believe that ideas as the basis for a work of art are the same thing as the actual work produced. This while it feels good, doesn't measure up to what the law or most of society really believes. If you can't understand why they believe that then you're never going to understand why these arguments keep occurring, and no it's not because we're all some dirty spoiled children that feel entitled to everything, it's because we have a fundamentally different perspective on reality and it tends to be one shared by far more people. If you really want to convince me or anyone else though, I'd suggest making an argument for why these two things are the same and really listening to everything said.
Now that's just short-sighted. Not all downloads are lost sales, similarly it can potentially positively effect a title as well. Though both are beyond calculation. If no one knows about a title, how will they know if they want to buy it? The lineup of adult swim is one of the few ways right now for anyone to see an anime title these days unless they're fortunate enough to have expensive digital cable with on demand. From a sales POV an unknown title would be just as big if not bigger a risk (since they'd have to spend more on advertising) to take versus a well known and often downloaded title. You seem to always assume that no one will buy if they can download, that's just not the case. Neither too, should we be blamed for business decisions made by some executive. It's like what you said about the cat. Just because the executive feels sad that a feral cat got run over doesn't mean it actually hurt him or his business in any tangible way.
Lawyers and economists would disagree with you there, and I think they have a bit more knowledge on these subjects.
While I can see what you're saying I still think you're looking at it too much from an emotional POV. Art is consumed when viewed, yes, however you also have to think further then that. A painting for instance, is a tangible good. You pay either a painter to make it, or an art dealer to buy it. However what is given is a tangible, physical good. Now at that point, you own the painting and you control it. Suppose however a friend saw that painting with your permission and then made a reproduction by hand for himself with his own materials? Is he depriving the painter of anything? Is he depriving the friend of anything? He hasn't taken anything, he hasn't bought anything either, but he has gained something. How do you account for this object that has just entered into existence beyond the official channel? This is very different from him taking a painting from his friend or the painter. Is his duplicate a stolen good? He bought and paid for all the canvas, brushes and paint he used himself, he owns these items entirely in their separated form. So if it is now a stolen good, why is it that a we are suddenly revoking a man's property and giving it to another based on the method in which he specifically chose to use it in his own time? If not, then what about if he starts spending more time painting duplicates and giving them to people? If so, when does it cross the line into stolen goods and why? How do you codify or quantify such things? The difference between food is once eaten, food is gone, once worn clothing loses physical properties that cause it to depreciate in value as does a physical TV, a DVD or any other physical device. It's like how VHS got worse with each copy if you did make copies. Physical goods deteriorate over time and that is why their consumption and use is different from something intangible. It is forever as it was no matter how many times it gets used. For instance, someone who downloads an anime, watches it, and then buys it. Should this person be required to pay twice because he downloaded one and consumed without paying, if so why? If not, then you must acknowledge that the mere act of consumption of an intangible good is not a direct analog to theft of an object at cost. Stolen goods actually cost money to replace and even if they are recovered value is still lost due to physical deterioration. Intangible digital goods do not suffer from these problems. Think it over, I'm interested to hear your response. Last edited by Fallout2man on Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Alright, we're dancing in circles here and using statistics and "facts" that are questionable at best. Besides, as recent events and potential future events are demonstrating, the effect is more than just a small "subset" of business. People are losing their jobs over this and their livelihood, and that's a small factor to you?
A lot of this is also bordering on OT and irrelevant to the news article. If this is going to go that route and devolve in to another circular fansub debate then we're done here. |
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Batman3777
 Posts: 160 Location: Down the Shore, NJ |
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Oh thank you, thank you! That seriously needed to be said. I knew I could count on a moderator to... moderate.  What you just said is precisely why I gave up posting on this topic a few pages back... OT content and "fuzzy math" got old, fast. 
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Fallout2man
Posts: 274 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Geneon's demise is extremely sad and I really hated that. However if you think about everything in relation to the entire sum of all business globally, yes that is a small subset of businesses. People are losing their jobs and their livelyhood and that's sad, but that's on an emotional scale. You have to think about long term global net effects if you really want to figure out the most practical way to do things. We all get choked up, but we can't let our emotions lead us to make bad decisions for the future. Arresting and throwing three downloaders in jail won't add up to much of anything. As was already said there are other, better programs there already and they're working on something even better. Enforcement just drives the arms race that in turn ends up costing everyone more money to keep up with downloaders. The only difference is in the cold war's nuclear arms race if we didn't have M.A.D. we'd be dead. In this case if they can't capture downloaders there may be some reprocussions but nothing near the magnitude of being wiped out. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I don't know that anyone can prove that those people wouldn't have lost their jobs regardless, and if true, who is to say that other industries might need those workers more? It's not like others of us haven't been in industries were jobs have lost, and in industries where the product wasn't able to be replicated at that.
Certainly more people could be employed in the industry if more people purchased anime, but that could be said of any industry. Does anime overall get a smaller set of money in proportion to the size of the audience? If so, then I'll agree that the audience should be doing more, but if the audience does not then there may just not be as much anime. When that happens, people will learn. At this point I just don't think we can say that is the case. Also consider that in some cases people use the ability to watch for free to support other industries more than they would. If American TV wasn't cheap, I'd have much less money to spend on anime. Also in many cases I avoid buying American things in order to spend money on anime. This improper allocation may go against anime more than it goes for them, but I tend to think the reasons for that is that the industry is based on a broken model of pure DVD sales when most "viewers" just want to "view" and don't care much about DVD collections. |
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