Forum - View topicNEWS: 3 Japanese Men Arrested, Charged with Uploading Anime
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Batman3777
 Posts: 160 Location: Down the Shore, NJ |
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Well, if you really wanted to do this right and still maintain capitalism, downloading content in such a manner would have to become another OPTIONAL level of service provided by an ISP, or even a service similar to iTunes. Charge people who want to download such things an additional fee for "GOLD" service that would allow them to download. And those who do not want to download can get their "silver" or basic service or whatever they want to call it. Just like Netflix, basically: $9.95 a month for a fair number of episodes or what have you and there it is, done. But here's the thing... why do, as an honest question now, why do people complain so much about DRM? Why should people be allowed to make a copy of a copy... and so on and distribute that to friends, the neighbors, etc etc... Why not, if the price is fair, just recommend it someone? Basically, what I am saying is, it seems like people do not have a fair price in mind for these things, they only want free. If they can skirt current methods, they'll find a way to skirt taxes, and then only non-interested parties with no liability will end up paying. People do dodge taxes, after all... |
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Samurai-with-glasses
 Posts: 628 |
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On the article: Show trial much?
On the debate: ilikehotaznz, wow, an intelligent individual with a broader view on this subject than the usual Pirate or Copyright Fanatic (and to all of you who are in those categories, f-ck you, I'm sick of your tirades). I'm impressed. However, your idea of an international copyright organization compensating creative producers is something that I think will never work. In fact, your proposal, which I presume is made in consideration of the many problems of the entertainment and information industries of today, will likely have vast negative effects if ever successfully implemented. First, it will require great force and many authorities to support the enforcement. This will be pure individual rights nightmare, far worse than the corporate-vs-consumer tug-o-war we have right now. Second, issues of unfairness (already raised in this thread) abound. Who will pay, for how much? Taxes are never fun; wars and revolutions are fought over them. And, worse yet (far worse in fact), who will receive what, and how much? The USA's writer's guild is protesting right now because they think the corporations aren't giving them a rightful share of the pie after all. I imagine a less market-based solution would be far more troublesome, what's with the fact that backroom dealings, essential here, tend to favor the privileged and powerful more than the actual artists on the ground. Third, technical and procedural issues. Tracking accurate numbers of consumers, controlling the distribution networks, these are not easy tasks especially for government and governmentesque organizations (criminally incompetent in any issues involving the forefront of the Brave New World. They can run the postal mail system or the firefighters competently enough, but the internet? Riiight). That and this will require compromising national sovereignty at new levels. Mind you, I've never been a fan of national sovereignty (look at what that shit brought us to: the bloodiest century in human history ever), and transnational agreements of such nature, albeit far less in scope, such as the Berne Convention, already exist...but that doesn't mean problems will not occur. Etc. In other words, much ado for little gain, I'm afraid. On the other hand, the existing problems are worrying. While these issues pale in comparison to the so-called "real" issues in the world right now, from genocides to tragic poverty and AIDs epidemics, among others, as an individual who's living in (relative) affluence and whose lifestyle is tied to entertainment and its consumption, I'm more aware and troubled by them than others. There is a silver lining though, I believe as the modern post-industrial society moves further and further towards the service sector and reliance on creative outputs, the issues will acquire greater awareness over time, and consequently greater democratic/consumer pressure towards countering corporate tendencies to be totalitarian if not accounted for. Unfortunately, by then that may be too late, what's with all this bullcrap about ISP's trying to act as the police lately, Congress (which, like I said, is unbelievably incompetent, not to mention corrupted, in this kind of stuff), and the **AA's being the arseholes that they've always been... Now, I'm speaking from a distinctly anti-corporate viewpoint, but the problems include very much the consumer who doesn't pay and skip the ads (which includes me to an extent...and you Copyright Crusaders get off my back, I don't care!). However, I suspect the issue will be dealt with in time. People will suffer, things will go unpaid, casualties will exist and corners will be cut...as they've always been...but the Market will work it out somehow -- and since I neither have the will nor the expertise (not to mention the motivation, i.e. the paycheck) to find the solution for them, I'll just watch from the sidelines. And if things don't work out, well, then the infallible Market is probably getting obsolete and blaming human action and trying to restrict progress to everywhere isn't going to help; welcome to the post-liberal, post-post-modern society and all that. Edit:
Um, because DRM is teh sh1tz? Seriously. Examples: Severe case -- Starforce. People's hardwares are literally destroyed because that evil program screwed around with the hardware settings. No compensation, no fault. Oops. Medium case -- Backups. So if I happen to break my Rome Total War CD tomorrow by accident, I'm supposed to shell out more for the same? Riiight. DRM prevents backups and annoys people. And before you bring out other media, do note that books are far more durable than DVD's and much cheaper anyway. Another Medium case -- Anti-competition. Sony does this sh1t all the time. Oops the song from Radiohead you bought on this network cannot be used on your MP3 player. Why? Just because. It challenges competition not to mention sheer gluttonous gouging on the corporate side. Slight case -- show it to your friends. It's not bad in the DVD market -- even without copying, a single DVD tends to allow you to watch your movie on any DVD player, lend it to a friend, whatever. However, as recent trends in PC games demonstrate, DRM can be absolutely infuriating at times. Bioshock had this terrible controversy where you can't install the copy more than five times -- even on the same computer. That is, if you need to do a reinstall, a format of your harddrive, whatever, you're screwed. Now tell me again why DRM is such a harmless thing? Last edited by Samurai-with-glasses on Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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everybody_loves_hypnotoad
Posts: 46 |
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"The third suspect, "Male C," is a 24-year-old graduate student from Izumisano City in Osaka. The ACCS claims he created a computer virus that used still images from the Clannad television anime series and placed the virus with the images on the Winny network. According the police investigation, Male C admitted in an affidavit that he created the virus."
Lol this is hilarious, release a virus, distributing malware all over a p2p network, a virus which also included death threats, and no law broken. BUT, release a virus, distributing malware all over a p2p network, a virus which also included death threats, and pictures of an anime and you're and big trouble buster, you broke copyright law. And that's terrible. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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This post is in violation of our new civility rules. You have received a 24-hour ban. |
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Vortextk
 Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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I don't really care about the rest of the arguments since it won't be going anywhere fast. However, as with Samurai-with-glasses, the reason DRM is terrible is because of the lengths they go to. Some simple protection I can see is totally fair, obviously, but when I have to buy a song three times to be able to play it in WMP, on an ipod, and for the ability to burn on a cd there is something ridiculous there.
As he said, Bioshock is another great example of a recent problem. You buy it for xbox360? Woot, put it in and play(assuming you don't have the red ring of death). On the pc? Now it gets tricky. You have limited installs, you have to activate it over the internet, you might get problems installing it the FIRST time as many people did because of it's bloated security system. Most reasonable people willing to pay for merchandise don't hate DRM because it's a bad concept in general but because it has terrible execution. |
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Fallout2man
Posts: 274 Location: San Diego, CA |
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I don't think that addresses the core issue here. People don't want to pay for these things, at least not at first, that's why they download them. If you try to just make them pay then you're going to have the same situation as we do now. Is itunes doing okay? yes, reasonably, but its sales are also nowhere near making up for the ever declining brick and mortar sales. There's another big piece of the pie in here somewhere I think but we don't know the optimal solution yet. We might not need some kind of tax to subsidize these kinds of things if we get more ad sponsored content. The only real problem with that is whether or not we can expect people to keep things from being obnoxious. For instance internet ads were tolerable until popups, pop unders, flash popups and intellitxt started to inundate the web, people got fed up and invented a technological way around the problem that ended up costing people money. It might work, but it might not. Either way piracy needs to be marginalized economically.
People dislike DRM because it prevents legitimate fair uses. Legally in the USA you can use a copyrighted work in certain ways without permission. These include first sale (I buy a book then sell it to you later), backups (I can make a secondary copy for only my personal use), commentary (I can cut small clips out from a movie to review it), and parody (I can make fun of your movie, book or characters.) The problem people have with DRM is that it denies users the ability to exercise their legally entitled fair use rights. Worse yet, it only penalizes legitimate users with these burdens. Since DRM is break once, run anywhere, all that needs to happen is for a scene group to crack the DRM once and then they can plaster the movie, game, or other application all over the web while legitimate users get stuck with inconvenient roadblocks. It's also, except for a few narrowly defined reasons not including pre-existing fair use, illegal to break DRM on anything it protects, even if the thing it's protecting has had its copyright expire. It's also illegal to make any tools that can break DRM as well. Pirates won't care obviously, but legitimate users usually will.
Yes, and the IRS does something....very....nasty to them.  ;; All you'd have to do is say tack it on to your internet connection bill, this means that anyone who pays their ISP would be paying the tax. It'd make a lot of sense to do it that way. People may be irrational at times, but if people don't want to do this or that en masse there's really not much stopping them. We may be able to find an itunes like solution but we may not. We'll see in the coming days what happens.
That said don't think the other party in this issue is entirely innocent either. While anime studios probably haven't the movie and music industry, through their trade organizations has constantly fought for lobbying that continually retroactively pushed up copyright term limits globally and increased the power of copyright for companies without any regard for the people or the intent of copyright law. In the wake of the DMCA and the like I can't find much sympathy for most companies in this. Fortunately the anime industry has been very tolerant about fair use and worked with the community up until all the recent huffing and puffing about Gonzo. That's why I still really want to support them how I can. Last edited by Fallout2man on Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:35 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Batman3777
Posts: 160 Location: Down the Shore, NJ |
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Okay, okay, fair enough. So current DRM tech is rediculous, to put in mildly, I am sorry, I should have clarified... Do you see anything wrong with the concept of a balanced, easy to use, unobtrusive DRM technology? Essentially, can you tolerate the concept of DRM? And I’m not talking about format wars or any such things, just simply to protect the creative content itself. SO to that question, I think you gave me the answer of: no problem with it, so long as it is NOT like getting slapped in the face with a cinderblock every time you get a new product. There has to be a way in which a company can attach something to file that allows it to be downloaded AND played by only one particular user as many times as needed/desired, without going all geshtapo on people. And that had to be discovered, soon. Also, another problem with the tax idea: The same problem state-funded museums face: the "not with my tax money because I find that morally reprehensible" problem. Just like the Venus de Milo, or Muchaelangelo's David, or more modern, possibly "risque" work, you'll have all kinds of crazies crawl out of the woodwork and say "I dont want my taxes to pay for that guys work because it offends me." IE, yaoi or hentai, etc etc etc. Loads of people would complain about those sorts of things. And very often the case has to go to court, costing even more money, time, and so on... You're right vortextk, these arguments won't go anywhere... what did you expect in an online forum? I'm just surprised it hasn't degraded into the "you didn't spell ::insert word here:: right, so you don't know what you're talking about!" line of posts yet! 
So fair prices, which, no one has even mentioned yet... what are fair prices? I'll go first: $5.99 for a downloaded movie, $10.99 for each season of a show, and be done with it. Probably the dumbest idea that companies ever got, from what I see, is to put "bonus" content in DVDs as some sort of justification for the high prices. I don't know about you, but still shots of concept are do not make me any more likely to buy a dvd of 3 episodes for $29.99. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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DRM isn't about copying, it's about control. Control happens to include copying, but that isn't the only thing DRM prevents. DRM prevents me from using media I bought on any device, software, or operating system I choose to use. It doesn't prevent it because my device, software, or operating system is incapable of playing the media, it prevents it because my device or operating system didn't or couldn't license the DRM. DRM prevents consumers from making choices, that alone makes it bad. The inability to copy isn't a good thing for some of us because we like to backup our media (discs get damaged here very easily). The industry sometimes plays the game where they pretend we have this ability (such as with Blu-ray) and somehow they fail to deliver on making it reasonably easy. A copy of a copy of a copy isn't a bad thing necessarily, it is all about how copying is used that makes it a good or bad thing. Ultimately, it's a natural thing that is awesome because it is one of the few things in life that aren't limited by resources. The fact it can be duplicated is fantastic, we should try to limit duplication as little as we can to maximize benefit. |
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Vortextk
Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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Heh. I can't say I'm always legal on the internet. I understand my actions and what they imply towards any industries I might put a .0001% of stress on which is multiplied exponentially when taking into account anyone else with a...."moral flexibility" with these things. But yes, if someone wants to protect their belongings WITHOUT fudging me, the customer, up and back in anger then I'm for it. The thing is, I don't really see how it's possible without serious kind of monitoring going on. So you and your group of 3 other people spent a year developing a new technology to stop copies being made of your movies, big whoop. You then sell it and three hundred people begin to tinker with it to find out how to break it. The model seems flawed because too many end users have the smarts and hardware able to eventually break anything that comes out. My Bioshock reference with totalitarian security? It was broken in a few days. There were flame wars on the gamefaqs pc board the same week it came out of pirates vs non-pirates. How fun  .
So far, it doesn't seem to do much except mimic trials like these. It might stop a few squirrely amateurs from copyright infringement(what have you), but not the underworld kingpins. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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I'll tell you what makes me laugh at people who shout and scream that things like DRM violate their right to copy something for free. They then go out of their way and buy more expensive software and hardware to add to their computer just to get round it, but yet cry they are too poor to buy that copy in the first place.
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Batman3777
Posts: 160 Location: Down the Shore, NJ |
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[quote="Fallout2man"] more bits of semi-wisdom[quote]
But its not just temporary purchases, most people who download never buy a licensed copy. if they did, you would a predictable sales trend both up and down, depending on series popularity, which we don't; all we see are downward trends, for the most part. That being said, I agree with some of what you say, and disagree with some; in general I think we are on the same page. Regardless, at this point, all I can do is quote another post of mine from a different thread: I think something we all need to realize is that "discussing" this on the animenewsnetwork forums, or any other forums, ad infinitum, ad nauseum, is not going to solve the illegal downloading issue, even if we could come up with great ideas, since no one listens.
SO, suffice it to say, I guess this is just a series of growning pains that the industry has to go through, and they'll figure out how to do things at some point. This will work out, eventually. Just like the dot com bust, things will get worse, and then level out, and we won't have to get all hot and bothered as much as we do so now. |
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Batman3777
Posts: 160 Location: Down the Shore, NJ |
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Thank you for saying it sooo succinctly. You just made my day.
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Not accurate, the tools to get around it are largely free. The computers that can get around it are also not expensive. Most cracking is not done using brute force but simple work-arounds. My machine is not expensive. My problems with DRM are mostly due to the problems using it on FREE software, not on stuff that's expensive.
Besides that, I think many of us were into computers before anime. So of course we spend money on computers. I've probably spent more time on forums than watching anime. Many of those who work around DRM actually find it somehow fun to do that (I'm not one of them, but I'll use whatever they make when it's available). Last edited by Xanas on Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Vortextk
Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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Not debating, don't want to argue, you're against all forms of copying etc, I respect that. However, you really don't need to buy anything to pirate just about, well, anything. The connection costs as much as 1-2 regular priced anime dvds max and what hardware would someone buy to get around DRM? A burner? Possibly the people that actually crack it will need added hardware, but they're probably working with a real copy of whatever it is in the first place(rented/bought). If we're setting aside all legalities and morals, being able to download at up to 1 megabyte/second for a month is about a million times more cost effective than buying the actual dvds. The p2p end user hardly pays anything for pirated material, which is the whole point. I'm not saying this is good but rather you sound a little wrong because practically no one pays anything extra for pirated material and I'm not sure what you're talking about. |
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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