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NEWS: Tokyopop Germany Puts All DVD Releases on "Pause"


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jel123



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 108
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:05 pm Reply with quote
Batman3777 wrote:
Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I hope downloaders are proud of themselves. If the industry goes bankrupt, there won't be anything to download. Try to remember that. Shocked
And
Time and Space wrote:
Who else has that ominous feeling that the anime equivalent of armageddon lingers just beyond the horizon? For us westerners atleast.

That would be the pessimistic view.

A more optimistic view (from the fan POV) would be that this is just part of the evolution of the anime business. Amine is no longer a specialty item that can demand a premium (part of that premium is that it is only available in one size - the DVD). Anime world wide is starting to become more of a commodity item. While the premium standing has most likely been exaggerated by anime vendors the commodity status is being forced by fansubs and other illegal downloads. Price is a factor but customers aren't demanding free DVDs so I don't think anyone is expecting free downloads as an answer either. Customers expect convenience and downloading an episode months before a DVD is available is very convenient. The future is downloads someone will figure this out and make a lot of money on it - anime distributors need to adapt or perish.

That's my opinion anyway.
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Batman3777



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 160
Location: Down the Shore, NJ
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:35 pm Reply with quote
jel123 wrote:
Batman3777 wrote:
Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I hope downloaders are proud of themselves. If the industry goes bankrupt, there won't be anything to download. Try to remember that. Shocked
And
Time and Space wrote:
Who else has that ominous feeling that the anime equivalent of armageddon lingers just beyond the horizon? For us westerners atleast.

That would be the pessimistic view.

A more optimistic view (from the fan POV) would be that this is just part of the evolution of the anime business. Amine is no longer a specialty item that can demand a premium (part of that premium is that it is only available in one size - the DVD). Anime world wide is starting to become more of a commodity item. While the premium standing has most likely been exaggerated by anime vendors the commodity status is being forced by fansubs and other illegal downloads. Price is a factor but customers aren't demanding free DVDs so I don't think anyone is expecting free downloads as an answer either. Customers expect convenience and downloading an episode months before a DVD is available is very convenient. The future is downloads someone will figure this out and make a lot of money on it - anime distributors need to adapt or perish.

That's my opinion anyway.


Well, cheers for the optimism. We could use that every once in a while, I'd say. Cool
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Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:41 pm Reply with quote
Hopefully, both German dvd companies can figure out a way to make these releases economic...... though with a smaller market size, the slightly higher the US price doesn't surprise me too much. Still, doesn't Germany also have an all-anime cable network? I think that ADV+TP were mostly serving the Otaku-fringe..... either way, it's not a good sign, and too bad for fans in Germany.
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Porcupine



Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 1033
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:57 pm Reply with quote
Batman3777 wrote:
I hope downloaders are proud of themselves. If the industry goes bankrupt, there won't be anything to download. Try to remember that.

I totally agree with this. But at the same time, we are just naive if we think that arguments like what you said will stop the downloaders. Even though it's true, it still won't work to convince a population consisting of individuals. That's just the way the world is. That's just the way game-theory mechanics work. The companies and governments are the ones that have to take steps to control piracy, not the downloaders.

jel123 wrote:
A more optimistic view would be that this is just part of the evolution of the anime business.

I do not really agree with any of the specific details you mentioned after this, such as the part about anime becoming a commodity item, but I do agree with this first optimistic statement you made.

I had actually been hoping that Geneon would go out of business. And I might (I'm not sure) even be hoping that ADVision goes out of business. I am certainly hoping that all the Hollywood studios will go out of business (although I doubt it will happen). Why? Certainly this will launch the anime world, or at least the European/American anime world, into dark times. But it's possible that such a drastic occurence would force radical change for the better. I would accept a few years of total dark ages if it resulted in a golden age afterwards. I would rather have that than a sickly, barely-alive festering age of piracy for many years to come.
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Time and Space



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 167
Location: China
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:59 pm Reply with quote
jel123 wrote:
Batman3777 wrote:
Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I hope downloaders are proud of themselves. If the industry goes bankrupt, there won't be anything to download. Try to remember that. Shocked
And
Time and Space wrote:
Who else has that ominous feeling that the anime equivalent of armageddon lingers just beyond the horizon? For us westerners atleast.

That would be the pessimistic view.

A more optimistic view (from the fan POV) would be that this is just part of the evolution of the anime business. Amine is no longer a specialty item that can demand a premium (part of that premium is that it is only available in one size - the DVD). Anime world wide is starting to become more of a commodity item. While the premium standing has most likely been exaggerated by anime vendors the commodity status is being forced by fansubs and other illegal downloads. Price is a factor but customers aren't demanding free DVDs so I don't think anyone is expecting free downloads as an answer either. Customers expect convenience and downloading an episode months before a DVD is available is very convenient. The future is downloads someone will figure this out and make a lot of money on it - anime distributors need to adapt or perish.

That's my opinion anyway.


People pay for DVDs because in return they get a hard copy, a product to show for their money, nicely packaged and proudly displayed.
Before anyone starts paying to download anime onto their computer then, the free fansubs would have to be removed entirely. Anyone who already watches fansubs would likely continue to download them even if a legitimate paying option is made available. They'd save their money for an official DVD release if they enjoyed the anime enough, rather than pay for a temporary, or at best, custom burnt DVD. Which is exactly what happens now. Your optimism is founded in dreams. Nothing would change.

Unless of course, they are of very low cost and of very high quality. But this could still damage official DVD sales, because, besides from possibly leading to the mass burning of custom DVDs; these official downloads could so easily be shared with friends aswell. They could just as easily replace fansubs, becoming freely accessible in the dark corners of the internet, and the majority of people would probably opt for the free version of the product than the paid for version.

I could be wrong, a majority may be devoted to aiding the anime industry. But until free anime on the internet is done away with for good, DVD sales (or rather, the welfare of the companies behind those DVDs) will continue to dwindle.

[ P.S. I do admit I'm exaggerating a bit by using the word 'armageddon', it's not all that bad, and hopefully never will be.]
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cloud1989



Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:23 pm Reply with quote
I have to say that if those german prices mentioned are correct, then even me who owns about 400 anime dvds would have are hard time convincing myself to buy anything. There not going out of buisness really, it seems as they are not getting the results they want or need with dvds and are looking to find other ways to sell there products. Even if internet piracy is a really bad thing you have to admit that if it wasn't for these pirates no industry would be quick to adapt to new methods, all these new distribution methods such as download to own, legal streaming, VOD, and all that other stuff would probably not even exist if there wasn't something to push the companies to do it. We might have still been stuck buying cds in stores just for a few songs even. If the industry wins in the end then I could hardly call piracy a completely bad thing as we may not even have the options we have if it wasn't for them but if the industry falls then well....that really sucks, its to soon to tell though.
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Batman3777



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 160
Location: Down the Shore, NJ
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:37 pm Reply with quote
Well, I think something we all need to realize is that "discussing" this on the animenewsnetwork forums, or any other forums, ad infinitum, ad nauseum, is not going to solve the illegal downloading issue, even if we could come up with great ideas. SO, suffice it to say, I guess this is just s series of growning pains that the industry has to go through, and they'll figure out how to do things at some point.

This will work out, eventually. Just like the dot com bust, things will get worse, and then level out, and we won't have to get all hot and bothered as much as we do. Wink
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:51 pm Reply with quote
Other than in France and Italy, Europe's not really that big a market for anime. I don't necessarily see it as a reflection of current trends. Plus, these weren't big titles here, so why would they be more successful there?
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:07 pm Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
Other than in France and Italy, Europe's not really that big a market for anime. I don't necessarily see it as a reflection of current trends. Plus, these weren't big titles here, so why would they be more successful there?
Because maybe the market is growing faster than they can feed it? We don't know what the future has in store for global anime, but one thing is for sure it's changing right before our eyes and compared to say 8 years ago it is growing more mainstream. We just have to wait and see if it's for the better.
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mufurc



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 612
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:26 pm Reply with quote
Time and Space wrote:
I could be wrong, a majority may be devoted to aiding the anime industry. But until free anime on the internet is done away with for good, DVD sales (or rather, the welfare of the companies behind those DVDs) will continue to dwindle.

And then the DVD sales would still dwindle because people (all around the world) still wouldn't want to pay more for DVDs than what they feel they're worth. (Not to mention people in countries where anime is not popular would more or less stop buying anime altogether because they would have no way to decide if a show is worth their money or not. And don't give me the "movie speech". A ~25 episode show is not the same as a movie.) If free anime on the 'net went away, people would simply go back to copying DVDs and passing them around - eventually they would develop ways to share them on the 'net again.

You can't solve the problem simply by eliminating free competition. What companies need to do is realize what customers want and give them value for their money. When not even otaku are willing to pay 6000+ yen for a DVD, even if they like the show, something is wrong. Sure, there are people who would never pay for anything - they're hopeless cases. But in my experience most people will pay for what they like if they feel it's worth it.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2058
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:29 pm Reply with quote
And to add to the above, I'd say that most of the hopeless cases, are just a bunch of kids who don't have money primarily. When they get it, sometimes they start buying where they did not previously. Of course if you make them hate you that is a lot less likely. I know in my case I didn't buy a lot until recently. I said a couple months ago that I probably bought 30% of what I'd seen (including on TV), now it's probably closer to 40%, and I plan only to increase that over time. All my current fansub shows I will be buying should they end up getting licensed (claymore, clannad, gundam 00 & rental magica).
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Dargonxtc



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4463
Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:53 pm Reply with quote
Cripes! Can Rozen Maiden not catch a friggen break!?

How the hell does DearS get a full release, yet Rozen Maiden, which is infinitely better get screwed EVERYWHERE? <----Rhetorical question.
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Time and Space



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 167
Location: China
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:53 pm Reply with quote
mufurc wrote:

You can't solve the problem simply by eliminating free competition.


I agree entirely. I should have written 'would' instead of 'will', because really I was trying to refute Jel123's idea that some 'evolution' whereby anime is released on the internet will work to save the industry, which it won't, though his idea might work to some extent if fansubs didn't exist. But like I said, they likely always will, even so, as you suggest, there are many other reasons why the industry seems to be dwindling; a problem which the removal of fansubs, therefore, wouldn't necessarily solve.
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jel123



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 108
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:17 pm Reply with quote
Batman3777 wrote:
Well, cheers for the optimism. We could use that every once in a while, I'd say. Cool
Thanks, my pleasure Wink

Time and Space wrote:
People pay for DVDs because in return they get a hard copy, a product to show for their money, nicely packaged and proudly displayed.
You left out the part about watching the contents Wink
DVDs will be around for a while but something will eventually replace them - maybe sooner than later.

Time and Space wrote:
...Your optimism is founded in dreams...
Can't argue with you there. It is just speculation on my part but I don't see any other way that this can play out. Every time a new copy protection scheme is introduced it is cracked within weeks. It's not likely that technology will be the answer and unfortunately the moral high ground doesn't seem to appeal to everybody;-(

Time and Space wrote:
...Unless of course, they are of very low cost and of very high quality...
Yes, that is what I'm thinking - not a tiny window within a flash player but a regular video file. If the fansubers can do it for "free" then the inherent cost of online distribution must be fairly low. This means the anime companies can sell you an episode or a subscription to their catalog for a relatively low price. If you download it from them maybe they give you a discount on the DVD or whatever as an incentive to not go elsewhere. As far as hurting DVD sales - if enough people are paying for downloads DVD sales are not as important.

So let me dream already! Smile
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sdsyukichan



Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:58 pm Reply with quote
I know this has been said a million times, but anime DVDs are too expensive for fans to buy everything they like. I'll buy what I can if I have the money, but for a series I [i]like[/i] and don't [b]love[/b], I'm not going to drop $30+ on a DVD of a series with 20+ DVDs in it.
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