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TitanXL wrote:

Here's the thing though: just about every anime has puns in their names. [...] Do you need to know any of this to enjoy Naruto? No. They do well enough without the need to change their name to get these puns across, like name his Spin Whirlmaster or whatever.

I agree with you there, but here's the thing... you DO need to know those kinds of things to (properly) enjoy Phoenix Wright. The name puns are almost always descriptive of the character and contribute to the campy atmosphere Phoenix Wright has.

TitanXL wrote:

Especially when, from what I've seen, the puns in the "Phoenix Wright" version doesn't even match the puns of the original version most of the time..

I'd like to know what characters you're thinking of, because aside from the characters with "normal" names like Maya and Pearl, I can't think of a character whose localized name isn't at least somewhat similar in meaning to their original Japanese name.
For reference, http://www.court-records.net/ has a list of all the characters and the meanings of their names in the Japanese and English versions.

And for clarification on my Pokemon example, I meant the names of the Pokemon themselves. The human names are most likely, as you said, changed to be more accessible for English-speaking children. (Though the gym leaders names ARE often translated puns. Kasumi means "Mist" so naturally she became Misty!)

rizuchan wrote:

I agree with you there, but here's the thing... you DO need to know those kinds of things to (properly) enjoy Phoenix Wright. The name puns are almost always descriptive of the character and contribute to the campy atmosphere Phoenix Wright has.

Eh, I played it way back before it was localized through fan translations and I enjoyed it pretty well with the Japanese names and all. I don't think it's really that a big deal or important in my experience.

TitanXL wrote:

I'd like to know what characters you're thinking of, because aside from the characters with "normal" names like Maya and Pearl, I can't think of a character whose localized name isn't at least somewhat similar in meaning to their original Japanese name.
For reference, http://www.court-records.net/ has a list of all the characters and the meanings of their names in the Japanese and English versions.

Well, just to name a few off that list... Chihiro/Mia, Keisuke/Dick, and Reiji/Miles. Chihiro is "the kanji together mean 1000 Questions, The second kanji is also the first kanji in "Cross examination."" Which I'm not sure how "Mia" fits into that. Fey I guess is because their family is priestesses, but that's.. not really what was being punned. Dick Gumshoe is obvious enough, but in Japan, well "Itonokogiri roughly means, "a saw." The creator says he chose the name for its uniqueness. The name "Keisuke" was taken from a musician." Nothing about that has anything to do with him being a detective. That name just rubs me the wrong way. "Dick Gumshoe sounds like a kid's cartoon hero or something.. reminds me of "Dick Dastardly" Reiji/Miles, I see the sword/Edge thing, but Reiji has part of a kanji for "cleverness" which I don't get with "Miles".

Sure, I see the pun with "Naruhodo" to "Wright" but a lot of them seem either pointless or incorrect. The puns in the Japanese version really aren't that big of a deal, a reference to a musician or maybe it means 'cleverness', but nothing as blatant as "Dick Gumshoe". The Ayasato/Fey family all seem entirely pointless. I assume they named Harumi "Pearl" because she carries that ball around, or maybe her necklace, but Harumi contains the season "spring" Not really sure how that's important or worth a change.

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And for clarification on my Pokemon example, I meant the names of the Pokemon themselves. The human names are most likely, as you said, changed to be more accessible for English-speaking children. (Though the gym leaders names ARE often translated puns. Kasumi means "Mist" so naturally she became Misty!)

Well, the Pokemon names apply as well. I never got why some Pokemon got to keep their Japanese names while other's didn't. What makes "Pikachu" and "Togepi" okay but "Lizardon" and "Metamon" (which are English to begin with") wrong? Pikapika means 'sparkle' and chuu is the sound a mouse makes. Shouldn't that be a big pun to translate for Americans to "get it"? It all seems arbitrary.

Gym Leaders, well, the thing is yes, all their names are puns, but not really the type they use (some are by coincidence), they're all named after plants in Japan. (Though I suppose by default that means all the Grass Gym Leaders are proper puns, but still). I don't really see it as any different than Akira Toriyama naming most of his Dragonball Z characters after food. Matis, for example, is a plant, and has no connection to electricity like 'Lt. Surge" does. Kasumi does mean mist, but she's named after the Japanese word for the baby's-breath plant. (I guess it's worth pointing out virtually every human character in Pocket Monsters has 3-character katakana names: Sa-to-shi, Ka-su-mi, Ta-ke-shi, Mu-sa-shi, Ko-ji-ro, Hi-ka-ri, Ha-ru-ka, etc which is kinda lost in the English version.

Overall, puns just seem so much more subtle and less intrusive in Japan than the way they're handled by Capcom or Nintendo, because kanji, hiragana, katakana, and all that can have like 10 different meanings for the same character. It'd be like a wrestler named "Fred Smith" where "Fred" can also mean "strong", or "bus" or "swim". For example, in various anime alone I know quite a few girls named Natane, but I've never in my life met someone named "Gardenia". The English names are just too outlandish (Haterater mentioned the "Catchem" last name for Ash.. probably my most hated name out of the English version of the series), not to mention they do arbitrarily change perfectly fine English names to other English names.

Haterater wrote:

They problem I'm having is that your just limiting yourself to "they dumb down for kids!" When other companies do it for many titles not for kids. Like 999 for the DS, which is a M-rated. Aksys changed the code names for the characters so that they would get the story and puns on that and did the best they can for some of the other puzzles that were hard to translate. Like I said for Professor Layton, those precise Japanese specific things are a must to change. Atlus is very good on their titles as well. Its about not catering to those who already have their foot in the water of learning Japanese words and specifics already. A title should be enjoyable, make it flow very well to the language they are translating it to, and do what they can with the restrictions they may have on the games. Such as titles that don't have enough room to translate the name in full, so up to them to make it work.

I've never played 999 or really know what they changed. Professor Layton though.. his name is Layton in Japan as well, no? And maybe in 999s case it wasn't for kids, I'll go by your word (reminds me how Yakuza 4 cut out those Japanese gameshow quiz things because it'd be a nightmare/impossible to translate), but in these cases it definitely feels like it with entirely pointless changes. The Shigeru to Gary, if I'm reading BUlbapedia right for "geru" is kind of what I mean by the dumbed down, though. Gary sounds like the "geru" part so they change it to an American name that sounds "kinda sorta" like it. Like the Takuto/Tobias thing from earlier.

TitanXL wrote:

rizuchan wrote:

I agree with you there, but here's the thing... you DO need to know those kinds of things to (properly) enjoy Phoenix Wright. The name puns are almost always descriptive of the character and contribute to the campy atmosphere Phoenix Wright has.

Eh, I played it way back before it was localized through fan translations and I enjoyed it pretty well with the Japanese names and all. I don't think it's really that a big deal or important in my experience.

You must realize that your experience would only far reflect the experiences of the regular non-Japanophiles. Smile

These changes are mainly for marketing purposes anyways - they want something that'd be marketable to whatever type and size audience they're aiming for, and possibly even hope to catch on to the general pop culture. And that's ever-changing with the times - what flies at one time may not fly as well in another time. There may come a time in the future when Japanese words become generally as marketable in the West as English is in Japan. But there's really no exact science to it. I think you're looking for an answer that's just not there.

A hair style that can be represented so well by the character of Phoenix.
Seems that Japan is just better at making live action hairstyling better than the ol' US here with Goku.

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I've never played 999 or really know what they changed. Professor Layton though.. his name is Layton in Japan as well, no? And maybe in 999s case it wasn't for kids, I'll go by your word (reminds me how Yakuza 4 cut out those Japanese gameshow quiz things because it'd be a nightmare/impossible to translate), but in these cases it definitely feels like it with entirely pointless changes. The Shigeru to Gary, if I'm reading BUlbapedia right for "geru" is kind of what I mean by the dumbed down, though. Gary sounds like the "geru" part so they change it to an American name that sounds "kinda sorta" like it. Like the Takuto/Tobias thing from earlier.

I think we are at odds because you keep talking about the names, while there is more to localization than just that. With Layton, I'm trying to tell you that your vision of companies changing things for the overseas market is necessary because the gameplay could effect how things are changed in other areas such as names. In Layton's case, there are specific puzzles in the original version that only works for Japan and would not translate well, so that needs to be changed. Which leads to 999, as a big puzzle in that game had to be changed, thus some story and stuff, because that puzzle wouldn't work in English. They tried the best they can with that one. And their names are in spirit of the code names, so there is nothing wrong with that and the meaning is kept intake. Yakuza 4's case, yeah it more programming, especially since some of it is graphical that prevents an easier way to translate.

But for Pokemon, it still has the spirit for those names. Totally forgot about what enurtsol has mentioned, and that's marketing. As long as the names explain the pokemon and all that, I really don't see the problem and it does seem like the typical Japanophile thing to me to be angry over.

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But for Pokemon, it still has the spirit for those names. Totally forgot about what enurtsol has mentioned, and that's marketing. As long as the names explain the pokemon and all that, I really don't see the problem and it does seem like the typical Japanophile thing to me to be angry over.

If it's all marketing, then it's about dumbing things down in the end, then. That doesn't really explain why a batch of them get to keep their Japanese names if keeping the 'puns' is so important, or names already in English are changed. Or why the puns in Phoenix Wright are either added into the English version or completely changed. It's all very arbitrary and I must conclude there's no real rational reason for it.

People throw around the word Japanophile way too much. It's like this for everything people watch. They'll watch Italian Films subbed and unedited just as much as Japanese stuff. Not wanting to see something edited and hacked up is hardly something that warrants derogatory terms, and the fact people find that idea odd is kind of weird, actually. If these were handled by any competent company, like many others who do not resort to name changes and such, then they most likely wouldn't have been changed. I suppose that's why we still have fansubs and fan translations in the end so we don't have to be limited by what these certain companies dictate and try to control what we experience after it's been whitewashed and filtered to be more acceptable (read: "American")

I don't see many of the changing as dumbing down and more like keeping the spirit of the meaning, enhancing the experience, or just adding something to a theme. Final Fantasy XII is an excellent example of a localization enhanced, thanks again to Alexander O. Smith, of really drawing to the game's world. In Japanese, its just plain talking and flavor to enrich. That's simply not dumbing down.

Also, some names in English won't work to native speakers but sound awesome to Japanese speakers. Some pokemon like Beedrill and Quagsire's Japanese name is too simple and meaning not strong enough if directly translating. Once again, you don't want a work to be in such a way that its basically an equivalent to the saying "boy's club" for video games. For someone who truly wants their works to spread to many people as possible, I would like the meaning of what that work is saying over direct translations that doesn't make sense to the simplest of people.

And once again, with your way of taking the roll of Japanophile is like a "Boy's Club" to me. Especially on not explaining how one would handle the many problems of programing for games. How would you do a puzzle that's only works in the core of Japanese foundation without leaving the player confuse and stuck. Leaving some names untranslated in certain games loses some meaning getting through certain revelations.

For a challenge, I would love to see fan translators try to do a dual voice for games instead of undubbing as that proves the point of how difficult some games have doing dual voice due to programming. Its not easy like doing a DVD for for some games. Or how about companies who can't pay royalties to pay the Japanese VA agency, like Mangagamer in some cases.

Its not a black and white situation and someone who keeps going on about things not being "unmolested" are not seeing these types of issues and rather some companies go under and not be able to release another game. I would hate to see the niche/Japanese publishers for games have it tough like the anime industry. Trying to please a small base that twitches over the smallest of changes is not a healthy situation to be. And honestly, I kind of fear the future of translators if they are more direct over expressing what the author is saying.

There is the internet to know what's been changed and stuff. I rather have a coherent story and immersion than left out in a sea of wondering what the heck I'm reading.

So it'll be really interesting on who ever might get the film will hand the approach.

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Some pokemon like Beedrill and Quagsire's Japanese name is too simple and meaning not strong enough if directly translating.

Dude, Beedril's name in Japanese is Spear...the character has spears arms. There's no need to be a Japanophile or in any special group to understand that name or the reason behind it. I think you should be a little less hasty with your examples of Japanese names that don't work in Pokémon. Also the fact that many of the names shows that some Japanese names must work, for some odd reason.

I felt as though Spear is little too plain, IMO. Beedrill gives it more flair, as it kills two birds with one stone. There are other examples, like Atlus for example, changing some class names like the Etrian Odyssey series to give it that "exotic" flavor that Japan had, only in more uncommon English names.

The Japanese names that stay are usually most legendaries and the "mouse" types like Pikachu, Plusle/Minun, Parchirisu, etc so they are easily "brandable" for all international markets, not just English language.

Haterater wrote:

There are other examples, like Atlus for example, changing some class names like the Etrian Odyssey series to give it that "exotic" flavor that Japan had, only in more uncommon English names.

RAGE

As a fan of the series, I'm pissed by this name change. This name only works for the 1st game. By the 2nd and 3rd game, the name is misleading, wrong, and completely useless except to identify itself as a sequel to the first. Mad

More importantly...the translations of the japanese name is more exotic than Etrian Odyssey anyways.

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I felt as though Spear is little too plain, IMO. Beedrill gives it more flair, as it kills two birds with one stone.

Shouldn't it be Beespear then?

@ Gon*Gon

Not sure what your saying. What is the name that bothers you? If your talking about the title, I'm not seeing the problem? Japan had the subtitles also.

Beespear would be an alright alternative. There is no definitive answer, so in an alternate plan, Beespear would be a go.

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Not sure what your saying. What is the name that bothers you? If your talking about the title, I'm not seeing the problem? Japan had the subtitles also.

The japanese title applies to all 3 games, and makes sense for all 3 games.

Etrian Odyssey only makes sense for the first game, but is applied to all 3 games.

It's the equivalent of...The Lord Of The Rings being renamed "The Story of The Shire" or "The Caves of Moria".
________________________________________________________________________________________
As for this Ace Attorney film. Hollywood. LOOK AT THIS! THIS is how you adapt a series! THIS is how you stay faithful. You see his hair? His outfit? The actor looks identical to the character he's portraying!

Why can't you be as good as whatever country is making this film?This is not Goku. And this is not Chun Li.

Haterater wrote:

I felt as though Spear is little too plain, IMO. Beedrill gives it more flair, as it kills two birds with one stone.

*snicker* flair as a reason. Well there's going to be no agreement here with things like flair and IMO being thrown around without so much as a concession that there's some inconsistency or fault with some name changes. It's a perfect defense.

@ Gon*Gon

Hard for me to understand, according to your example. Odyssey is a long journey and sorts. The subtitle gives you differences in that journey. Like the Japanese is consistent with the tree name, still gives off different experiences about said tree. Probably missing something here, I don't know.

@ ArsenicSteel

The more understandable and unique the name is, the better it can catch on to various things depending on the work. Gives grounds to help preserve some of the "exotic" thing that some creators go for. That's the spirit of the meaning I'm talking about. And picking a word that's not normally used for something is a variable way to go about it. You don't want things to sound generic or too way out there for the majority of the work.

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Hard for me to understand, according to your example. Odyssey is a long journey and sorts. The subtitle gives you differences in that journey. Like the Japanese is consistent with the tree name, still gives off different experiences about said tree. Probably missing something here, I don't know.

Etria is only in the 1st game. The other two games take place in two entirely different places. Their only connection asides from the rare shout outs is the giant Tree.

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