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NEWS: ADV Films Removes Titles from Website - Update 2


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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:10 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Key wrote:

It's my understanding that Dentsu was the one that walked away from that deal, not ADV. (Unless someone can provide links indicating to the contrary. . .)


There was never any concrete public evidence regarding that whole mess one way or the other. If someone had anything at all that came from any sort of official or even reliable source - and I don't mean "gut feelings" from speculating fans, anime blogs or podcasts - then there'd be reason to believe one company walked away before the other, but as it stands, nothing was ever released about that.
Didn't Geneon approach ADV?
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BlackOpsNinja



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:02 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Key wrote:

It's my understanding that Dentsu was the one that walked away from that deal, not ADV. (Unless someone can provide links indicating to the contrary. . .)


There was never any concrete public evidence regarding that whole mess one way or the other. If someone had anything at all that came from any sort of official or even reliable source - and I don't mean "gut feelings" from speculating fans, anime blogs or podcasts - then there'd be reason to believe one company walked away before the other, but as it stands, nothing was ever released about that.


Apparently ADV has no shortage of coming up with ways to lose money and the Geneon distribution deal that ADV trumpeted might have been one of the most half baked of all.

While getting control of Geneon's future distribution might seem great they would also get saddled with Geneon's liabilities. If Mr. Large retailer happens to be sitting on a million or two dollars of Geneon inventory and ADV announces they are now Geneon's distributor then all of a sudden they get responsibilty to accept the returns for Geneon product they never sold.

Returns of product Mr. Large retailer bought from Geneon that has not sold they will then return to ADV (because they are Geneon's distributor). The retailers are not just going to eat this product that does not sell. They will send it back to the distributor. Returns will offset any payables to ADV on their own product or new Geneon product.

All of a sudden no money is coming in.

Looking at it from this point of view it would be absolutely idiotic to announce any kind of distribution arrangement like this with the potential liabilities but maybe that is how they run their business.

IMHO.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:58 pm Reply with quote
BlackOpsNinja wrote:

Apparently ADV has no shortage of coming up with ways to lose money and the Geneon distribution deal that ADV trumpeted might have been one of the most half baked of all.

While getting control of Geneon's future distribution might seem great they would also get saddled with Geneon's liabilities. If Mr. Large retailer happens to be sitting on a million or two dollars of Geneon inventory and ADV announces they are now Geneon's distributor then all of a sudden they get responsibilty to accept the returns for Geneon product they never sold.

Returns of product Mr. Large retailer bought from Geneon that has not sold they will then return to ADV (because they are Geneon's distributor). The retailers are not just going to eat this product that does not sell. They will send it back to the distributor. Returns will offset any payables to ADV on their own product or new Geneon product.

All of a sudden no money is coming in.

Looking at it from this point of view it would be absolutely idiotic to announce any kind of distribution arrangement like this with the potential liabilities but maybe that is how they run their business.

IMHO.
I think that is too gross an exaggeration. I could see that as a large problem, but I seriously doubt Mr. Large had made that big a purchase. At wholesale that would have had to be quite a lot of DVD's that Geneon would have had in stock and at the size of the company I just don't think that was possible. Maybe $200K to $500K at max but $1 -2 Million? Never. Besides nothing like a big sale to off load unwanted DVD's that were allegedly over priced to begin with. So at least Geneon, or ADV would get some money back.
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BlackOpsNinja



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:21 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
BlackOpsNinja wrote:

Apparently ADV has no shortage of coming up with ways to lose money and the Geneon distribution deal that ADV trumpeted might have been one of the most half baked of all.

While getting control of Geneon's future distribution might seem great they would also get saddled with Geneon's liabilities. If Mr. Large retailer happens to be sitting on a million or two dollars of Geneon inventory and ADV announces they are now Geneon's distributor then all of a sudden they get responsibilty to accept the returns for Geneon product they never sold.

Returns of product Mr. Large retailer bought from Geneon that has not sold they will then return to ADV (because they are Geneon's distributor). The retailers are not just going to eat this product that does not sell. They will send it back to the distributor. Returns will offset any payables to ADV on their own product or new Geneon product.

All of a sudden no money is coming in.

Looking at it from this point of view it would be absolutely idiotic to announce any kind of distribution arrangement like this with the potential liabilities but maybe that is how they run their business.

IMHO.
I think that is too gross an exaggeration. I could see that as a large problem, but I seriously doubt Mr. Large had made that big a purchase. At wholesale that would have had to be quite a lot of DVD's that Geneon would have had in stock and at the size of the company I just don't think that was possible. Maybe $200K to $500K at max but $1 -2 Million? Never. Besides nothing like a big sale to off load unwanted DVD's that were allegedly over priced to begin with. So at least Geneon, or ADV would get some money back.


1 to 2 million dollars in product for a company such as Geneon spread out among just a couple of large retailers composed of hundreds of stores is not a stretch at all. The ADV exposure on this was probably much worse.

And regarding just having a "big sale to off load unwanted DVD's that were alledgedly over priced to begin with" isn't that easy either. The big boys will pack the DVDs up and return them or come at the distributor for mark down dollars to sale price the product.

Imagine having to fork over mark down money for product ADV never ever sold in the first place because they are now the distributor.

Not well thought out plan there.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:25 pm Reply with quote
BlackOpsNinja wrote:

And regarding just having a "big sale to off load unwanted DVD's that were alledgedly over priced to begin with" isn't that easy either. The big boys will pack the DVDs up and return them or come at the distributor for mark down dollars to sale price the product.

Imagine having to fork over mark down money for product ADV never ever sold in the first place because they are now the distributor.

Not well thought out plan there.
Worked out well for ADV UK. No sooner had they put up their R2 clearance sale they cleared mostly everything out.
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BlackOpsNinja



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:44 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
BlackOpsNinja wrote:

And regarding just having a "big sale to off load unwanted DVD's that were alledgedly over priced to begin with" isn't that easy either. The big boys will pack the DVDs up and return them or come at the distributor for mark down dollars to sale price the product.

Imagine having to fork over mark down money for product ADV never ever sold in the first place because they are now the distributor.

Not well thought out plan there.
Worked out well for ADV UK. No sooner had they put up their R2 clearance sale they cleared mostly everything out.


You are talking an ADV UK warehouse sale vs. USA mass retailers sitting on a tidal wave of DVDs they can return at the press of a button.
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Calculusman



Joined: 02 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:36 pm Reply with quote
BlackOpsNinja wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
BlackOpsNinja wrote:

And regarding just having a "big sale to off load unwanted DVD's that were alledgedly over priced to begin with" isn't that easy either. The big boys will pack the DVDs up and return them or come at the distributor for mark down dollars to sale price the product.

Imagine having to fork over mark down money for product ADV never ever sold in the first place because they are now the distributor.

Not well thought out plan there.
Worked out well for ADV UK. No sooner had they put up their R2 clearance sale they cleared mostly everything out.


You are talking an ADV UK warehouse sale vs. USA mass retailers sitting on a tidal wave of DVDs they can return at the press of a button.


You're making it sound like it is illogical for one distribution company to ever take over distribution from another company, and that just doesn't make sense.

Maybe the risk of returned DVDs is rather small (I mean, how often does this happen, really? Much less on a large scale). You're basically laying out a worst-case "everything of Geneon's that is still on the shelf gets sent back" scenario which basically has zero chance of actually occurring. Is it a risk? Yeah, but most things come with some sort of catastrophic event as a risk, but those events don't derail that something from occurring because the chance of the event happening is so remote.

ADV could perhaps also mitigate their costs in case of such of an event by stipulating in their contract with Geneon that Geneon would be responsible for x% of the costs in such a return for the very reason that it doesn't make sense that ADV should pay for the return of DVDs that Geneon sent out.

In any case, a lot of business in the world wouldn't get done if risks like the one you describe were enough to derail an agreement.
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MokonaModoki



Joined: 30 Oct 2005
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Location: Austin, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:56 pm Reply with quote
BlackOpsNinja wrote:
Not well thought out plan there.


Except, of course, that the agreement between Geneon and ADV did collapse, for reasons which have never been made public. Reasons which may very well have included inability to reach an agreement about how situations as you describe would be handled.

Which would make the plan actually well thought out (and subsequently discarded as untenable). Which would make your negative commentary about ADV about as substantial as The Story of Saiunkoku, Vol. 3 (and not very well thought out).
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BlackOpsNinja



Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:00 pm Reply with quote
Calculusman wrote:
BlackOpsNinja wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
BlackOpsNinja wrote:

And regarding just having a "big sale to off load unwanted DVD's that were alledgedly over priced to begin with" isn't that easy either. The big boys will pack the DVDs up and return them or come at the distributor for mark down dollars to sale price the product.

Imagine having to fork over mark down money for product ADV never ever sold in the first place because they are now the distributor.

Not well thought out plan there.
Worked out well for ADV UK. No sooner had they put up their R2 clearance sale they cleared mostly everything out.


You are talking an ADV UK warehouse sale vs. USA mass retailers sitting on a tidal wave of DVDs they can return at the press of a button.


You're making it sound like it is illogical for one distribution company to ever take over distribution from another company, and that just doesn't make sense.

Maybe the risk of returned DVDs is rather small (I mean, how often does this happen, really? Much less on a large scale). You're basically laying out a worst-case "everything of Geneon's that is still on the shelf gets sent back" scenario which basically has zero chance of actually occurring. Is it a risk? Yeah, but most things come with some sort of catastrophic event as a risk, but those events don't derail that something from occurring because the chance of the event happening is so remote.

ADV could perhaps also mitigate their costs in case of such of an event by stipulating in their contract with Geneon that Geneon would be responsible for x% of the costs in such a return for the very reason that it doesn't make sense that ADV should pay for the return of DVDs that Geneon sent out.

In any case, a lot of business in the world wouldn't get done if risks like the one you describe were enough to derail an agreement.


We're not talking about Universal or Sony taking over someone's distribution. That would be one thing. We're talking ADV and clearly they do not have their act together and it appears they are having a meltdown. In light of what you see happening with them now how confident would you have been had they actually gotten the distribution for Geneon?
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Calculusman



Joined: 02 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:55 pm Reply with quote
BlackOpsNinja wrote:
Calculusman wrote:
BlackOpsNinja wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
BlackOpsNinja wrote:

And regarding just having a "big sale to off load unwanted DVD's that were alledgedly over priced to begin with" isn't that easy either. The big boys will pack the DVDs up and return them or come at the distributor for mark down dollars to sale price the product.

Imagine having to fork over mark down money for product ADV never ever sold in the first place because they are now the distributor.

Not well thought out plan there.
Worked out well for ADV UK. No sooner had they put up their R2 clearance sale they cleared mostly everything out.


You are talking an ADV UK warehouse sale vs. USA mass retailers sitting on a tidal wave of DVDs they can return at the press of a button.


You're making it sound like it is illogical for one distribution company to ever take over distribution from another company, and that just doesn't make sense.

Maybe the risk of returned DVDs is rather small (I mean, how often does this happen, really? Much less on a large scale). You're basically laying out a worst-case "everything of Geneon's that is still on the shelf gets sent back" scenario which basically has zero chance of actually occurring. Is it a risk? Yeah, but most things come with some sort of catastrophic event as a risk, but those events don't derail that something from occurring because the chance of the event happening is so remote.

ADV could perhaps also mitigate their costs in case of such of an event by stipulating in their contract with Geneon that Geneon would be responsible for x% of the costs in such a return for the very reason that it doesn't make sense that ADV should pay for the return of DVDs that Geneon sent out.

In any case, a lot of business in the world wouldn't get done if risks like the one you describe were enough to derail an agreement.


We're not talking about Universal or Sony taking over someone's distribution. That would be one thing. We're talking ADV and clearly they do not have their act together and it appears they are having a meltdown. In light of what you see happening with them now how confident would you have been had they actually gotten the distribution for Geneon?


I think it's a little premature to say they are having a meltdown. We don't even fully know what the current situation is. That being the case, it's impossible to know whether they would be better off or worse off had they agreed to distribute Geneon titles.
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indrik



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:09 pm Reply with quote
I would be stunned if anybody short of Wal-Mart tried to get mark down money out of an anime distributor. I guess it's possible, though. I have never heard of a distributor getting smacked with penalties for product they didn't move themselves. I've heard of them handling the logistics of returns, but in situations like the Geneon/ADV thing, it's always been we'll handle shipping, but you have to negotiate with the people who sold it to you.

A million dollars in stock- figure Best Buy has 1,000-odd stores (I think it's really closer to 1200, but that math's easier this way) and retail price is about $15 per dvd (based on logic we've used before and I'm too lazy to look up.) That would put $1M at about 70,000 dvds, or about 70 per store. I don't think that's way out there; there are probably more ADV or Funi dvds than that at any of the local Best Buys.

Also, there's nothing in any of this that clearly says to me that ADV is a bad company. Any of this could be coming or going several different ways. There are always people that know more about it than I do, but I don't see anything obvious that makes ADV look stupid here.
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halo



Joined: 11 May 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:00 am Reply with quote
ADV certainly isn't dead, and now it looks like they're even finally making a commitment getting into the High Def market. Anyone know if any of their Japanese partners they may be having issues with were HD DVD supporters?
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Beatdigga



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:06 am Reply with quote
halo wrote:
ADV certainly isn't dead, and now it looks like they're even finally making a commitment getting into the High Def market. Anyone know if any of their Japanese partners they may be having issues with were HD DVD supporters?


I'd laugh if that was the case.

Well, the crisis is over for now, apparently.
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Demon's Dream



Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 13
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:40 am Reply with quote
Well, whatever is going on is affecting the Anime Network as well. My VOD schedule did not update this week, stuff dropped off, but nothing new was added.
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TornadoTatsumaki



Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:38 pm Reply with quote
Listen Everyone, on January 31 ADV made a statement assuring that there's nothing to worry about. In the statement, ADV hinted that this move to pull these titles off the market was a license matter and a small technicality not a concern.

What we can theorize, is that the decision to remove these titles along with the cancellation of "Anime at the Alamo" for the month of January 2008( (the Alamo just informed me that Anime Tuesdays will return February 5) will return is becasue the license is in the process of renewal. In fact during this time many high profile licenses are up for grabs and from what I heard many big licensed are up for renewal and for grab, The 4Kids license on Sonic X is set to expire this spring and Sega of America has no plans to renew 4Kids 5 year license on it, Salior Moon license on ADV's label just expired so Salior fans will be left in the dark this year. Though ADV renewed Dirty Pair in 2003, ADV will release it's license this spring(rumors suggest that Funimation will aqquire Dirty Pair from ADV.)

So what I can say, is that this is no cause for alarm, sure the industries' growth is small right now, and the fall 2007 was the slowest period since the Anime shortage of 1996, but things will look better in the Q2 of this year. Granted since many older licenses need to be renewed, we many be a approaching a "License Wave" year like 2001( the last time many big licenses were annouced.

Sure 2007 was a slump year, but this has happened before. While I go into detail about why last year was a shortage year, I can tell what happened in 1996 and 1987. the Fall '96 slump, was caused by several things, must noticebly CG(shi-ji) use where many animation studios refused to use it and refused to changed the wire frames and fluid cells that had used for many years, as a result many studios failed to meet production deadlines and alot of anime was backlogged many of the current anime series were affected by this, Keitantei No Conan's upcomming season was pushed back, and first season was reused. Many OAV
s that were supposed to have at least 4 episodes were shortened down to just 2 and 3. Worst of all, Gainax almost went bankrupt when they tried to distribute Evangelion Laser Disc, and VCD collection boxsets while being faced with price fixing issues and both Pokeman and Utena( which had begun production in the Summer of 1996, were pushed back until April 1997. These reasons along with the DVD market still being new are behind the ' 96 slump.

But the industry bounced back. By 1999, there were over 120 series competed and many more in production. April 1999 had over 100 releases! by then many companies were ahead of schedule, dozens of older manga and older anime that had never been formatted into T.V. series( such as Jubei Chan and Silent Mobius) were availible. By the end of 1999 the DVD market had finally outgrown VCD and Laser Disc.


So what I can say is that I don't think anyone should throw in the towel yet, I don't think you should call it a day yet. After all negociations are underway in Japan to begin cutting license and distribution fees for western distributors and both ADV and Funimation are cutting a business deal to save their U.K. divisions. As naive as I sound I believe the next quarter of 2008 will look remarkably better for the industry especially if the April 2008 T.V season in Japan has about three to four dozen releases.


As for Geneon, I really would rather not go into why they went under. All I can say is that they pretty much shot themselves in the foot with paying too much for licensing( most which already had a distributor outside of Japan), BAD investments, and poorly coded and manufactured DVDs( many people had told me that Geneon's DVD were sloppy.)
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