Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - Funico in the Island of Magic
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kakoishii
Posts: 741 |
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That would be a waste of money. I don't watch nearly enough anime these days to justify buying an online stream subscription on top of my other bills (like my costly cable bill). Don't mean to sound spoiled or anything, but if other services have free ad based streaming that is not limited to a week window, why is nico nico different? It doesn't do much to persuade casual watchers like myself to watch stuff on their site versus the other stream sites, though for reasons I've mentioned I wish I could but as it stands it does nothing for me. |
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agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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But isn't that one of the main points of this move on the Funimation side? Setting up this joint venture with niconico for stream-only licenses underlines that the main focus of the Funimation.com as it launches its premium subscription service will be on streaming dubs. The "Funico-only" streams won't get a DVD release unless Funimation decides to pick up the whole license, but then they were precisely the series that Funimation was less likely to pick up anyway.
Nothing in this joint venture points to any shift in Funimation's strategy to dub everything that they license for release. Setting up "Funico" implies that "Funimation" as such remains focused on dubbed anime, including opening up a third revenue stream for dubs in addition to physical media and device-dedicated download stores. |
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Lord Geo
Posts: 2544 Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey |
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What is this talk of Funico licenses not potentially getting home video releases? Isn't the point of Funico to license anime that will be streamed on NicoNico and released on DVD & BD by FUNimation? Shouldn't that mean that every anime licensed by Funico will receive a home video release? Hell, even Chris Macdonald said that with Funico, FUNimation will "no longer have to stream anime". If FUNimation isn't releasing a Funico-licensed anime on DVD and, possibly, BD then what's the point of the joint-venture? If FUNimation isn't giving Funico animes home video releases, then all they're doing is simply giving money away to NicoNico and the Japanese companies. The way I read the Funico announcement is that Funico is to be considered a seperate entity that licenses anime, but will have their licenses streamed on NicoNico and distributed on DVD and BD by FUNimation. Could that mean sub-only releases? Possibly, but it honestly wouldn't be the first time FUNimation has ever distributed sub-only home video. |
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fireaxe
 Posts: 503 Location: Trois-Rivieres, Canada |
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That's what I thought at first, but then I realised that Funico will most likely become Funimation's testing ground, via niconico, for eventual physical releases. It isn't all that clear yet, but considering the amount of new titles they're expected to license every season (and their current backlog of older licenses), it's kind of obvious that they most likely won't have the time/manpower to release them all on DVD/BD. So we're kind of assuming that Funimation will pick and choose which Funico titles are worthy of a physical release. |
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Lord Geo
Posts: 2544 Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey |
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But, again, wouldn't FUNimation not distributing certain Funico titles make the idea of a join-venture kind of moot? What would make this any different from FUNimation simply looking at what titles are doing well at NicoNico and then simply licensing them? You don't need to create an entire new entity for that. Also, that kind of deal could have been done with CrunchyRoll, too, in that case. That's pretty much FUNimation saying "We'll help NicoNico get some more animes for streaming, but that doesn't mean that we'll necessarily release them." You don't need to create a joint-venture to do that. Also, NicoNico will be subtitling these animes, so that means FUNimation will be saving money on subtitling costs that can be put towards another title that they'll be doing themselves without NicoNico, as FUNimation will still be licensing anime on their own, and the same goes with NicoNico and streaming... That is how it should work, right? There will be Funico licenses, but there will still be regular-old FUNimation and NicoNico licenses as well that don't involve Funico one bit. Titles that interest both NicoNico and FUNimation will be licensed by Funico, while licences that interest NicoNico but not FUNimation will be normal, streaming-only NicoNico licenes, and naturally FUNimation can still license anime on their own. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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Where'd you read that? What I read in Chris McDonald's editorial was:
Which assumes that the streaming only licenses continue but niconico.com does all the lifting on those, while in return for the helping with the licensing, Funimation gets the hits and demographic data, which will help it make up its mind on which to license for physical release. I don't see any way to read the editorial to suggest that it means Funimation is licensing all of these series for DVD release, and proceeding that way is also implausible on its face.
For Funimation, getting the same benefits it presently gets on streaming-only licenses, except now no longer losing money on the streaming itself. Plus the contracting simplification noted below.
They have already been doing that, on their streaming-only licenses, plus giving money away to do the streaming itself. And also, if niconico chips something in on the MG, then Funimation share of the streaming-only licensing cost will be less than what it is paying now. So no longer giving money away to do the streaming itself and paying less toward the streaming-only license MG is less money being given away. In business terms, less money given away is a step in the right direction.
(1) Funico licensing series (2) streamed by niconico and (3) distributed on physical media by FUNimation. (1) and (2) seem to be implied or suggested by what has been said, but nothing that has been said implies (3), that FUNimation will do a physical release of every Funico title. Rather, since its a joint venture with a streaming site, Funico can acquire the streaming rights in time for a simulcast, and then mid-season or after the season is over but when its still in the guaranteed streaming window, FUNimation can direct Funico to seek the full R1 rights, and there is not the 3rd party rights problem acquiring full rights to a series that already has simulcast rights sold, since its the same licensee acquiring the full rights.
Precisely. They were not streaming their streaming-only licenses for direct financial benefit, but for the market information, and for the first place in line if they decided to obtain a full license. As the distributor in a joint venture with a streaming site, they get the same benefits at lower cost, but without the contractual complications that can arise if a 3rd party holds the simulcast streaming rights. As to why niconico as opposed to Crunchyroll, there's plenty of room for speculation. niconico could have made an offer that Crunchyroll was not in a position to match. FUNimation may still harbor an outmoded grudge against Crunchyroll. And, of course, Crunchyroll already has a system of relationships in place, and its possible that some standing relationship would represent an obstacle to entering the joint venture. |
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fireaxe
Posts: 503 Location: Trois-Rivieres, Canada |
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@agila61
It all makes sense, somehow, but you've got to admit that this phrase, from Chris's editorial, was kind of misleading:
If it certainly can lead to more simulcasts, nothing in your round-up of the whole thing leads me to believe that it'll all end up in more DVD/BD releases. Unless Chris meant that Funimation might have some more disposable fund to spend on physical releases, since they're won't be losing some on streaming as of today... To me, that's too way too much of a stretch to even consider as a valid argument, but I really can't think of anything else to explain that statement. So, in the end, I'm still trying to figure out if this whole thing really is a good news for the fan who doesn't care about streaming, but buys the DVDs and BDs instead. And I still don't have an answer. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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As I read his argument, its that offloading the streaming costs to a partner that is focused on simulcast streaming means Funico can pick up more streaming-only licenses than FUNimation could on their own, and with a broader range to choose from ~ combined with some overhead costs pooled with n^2 that would be duplicated if acquiring a series that had an independent simulcast ~ they are likely to find more that justify a physical media release. I follow the argument that it could well lead to more DVD/BD releases by Funimation, though I'm not sure whether this means more DVD/BD releases overall or just an increase in FUNimation's market share. |
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Lord Geo
Posts: 2544 Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey |
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I'm sorry, agila, but most of what you are saying still doesn't give me the idea that any of this warrants creating an entirely new entity to do any of this.
Again, if FUNimation isn't going to release what Funico licenses, then what's the big benefit? It's simply allowing FUNimation to just look at a list and say "Yes" and "No" to going with full-on licenses, but without having to pay. Yeah, that's cool and all, but couldn't FUNimation have done that simply by teaming up with NicoNico without having to create a brand-new entity in the process? Yeah, I know that FUNimation has been losing a lot of money on their simulcasts, which is why the joint-venture is good for both companies. NicoNico has FUNimation backing them with advertising, leading to more visits and more income, while FUNimation has at least two less costs (streaming and subtitling, among other minor costs, I'm sure) to worry about for a title. Being able to license an anime cheaper is always going to be more appealing, so why not be willing to bite on titles that you wouldn't have done so at first due to those costs that you originally had to cover? And why do you simply focus on simulcasts, anyway? Yeah, simulcasts are going to be a big focus, but it's not like this joint-venture wouldn't potentially also work with older shows getting simply officially streamed in the first place. Though, yeah, in the case of those older series multiple places can stream them, but that can still work out for FUNimation as NicoNico can cover that cost still if it's a Funico license. Are you trying to say that Funico would only be used for simulcasts? Like fireaxe indicated, in the end your arguments really don't benefit the home video market, which is still FUNimation's bread & butter market. If Funico is just going to result in FUNimation still being picky about their licenses and not be willing to try some things that they were originally hesitant to try out, then how is that benefitting the home video market? Chris Macdonald wants this to result in more anime DVD & BD releases in North America, but if all Funico results in is a FUNimation that isn't trying anything new but instead simply not having to pay for some costs that they used to have to pay for then nothing's really changing... At least, it won't be anywhere near the big change that Macdonald was indicating Funico could help bring about. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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They were already simulcasting series that they were not committed to, and have said publicly that they lost money doing so. That fact that they were losing money on streams and still doing some of it implies that if they could find a way to do it without losing money on the streams, they'd like to do more. So the benefit is with respect to the series in the category of "we might pick this one up, but then again, we might not", which is substantially more series for a dub-only distributor than "we certainly want to pick this one up". There are very few series a season that a dub distributor can afford to commit to sight unseen.
You are ignoring the contract costs and potential contract conflicts. Doing both acquisitions ~ the stream only and the full license ~ through the same legal entity reduces contract costs and eliminates contract conflicts. Remember when FUNimation announced its stream of Strike Witches, which was streaming on Crunchyroll at the time, and then the FUNimation stream just didn't happen? Seems likely there was an unanticipated rights snafu there. If the simulcast license is through a company you co-own, the full license will be adding to rights that the joint venture already owns ~ no conflicting contracts, Plus if niconico.com is simply selling the streaming demographics information to FUNimation, they can just as well sell it to any other R1 distributor. A JV eliminates that risk.
Maybe at the margin, but dubbing costs dominate subtitling and stream mastering costs, so saving on the latter only pushes the envelope for a dub license by a relatively small amount. Where an increase in numbers would come from is the improved market information: that allows them to be more aggressive in selecting licenses to pick up than if they did not have that in-house information at hand.
Because simulcasts are what drives the business case on both side for the joint venture.
Actually, what fireax said was that my remarks seemed to make sense, but he didn't see how they lined up with Chris McDonald's remarks about this joint venture ultimately leading to more physical media releases by FUNimation, if it works out. If FUNimation does make better informed license pickups with lower contracting costs and no license entanglements, receiving the benefits of legit simulcast streaming ~ including the benefits in the reported reduction in rates of piracy ~ then it means Funimation making more money from the DVD/BD's it puts into the market ... whether or not it means more DVD/BD's in the market overall, My guess is that it does mean more DVD/BDs picked up by FUNimation ~ the question mark is on whether the total number of releases in the market increases is whether those are releases that otherwise would have been done by someone else.
If the joint venture works out, it will of course benefit FUNimation ~ whether it will benefit the home video market as a whole is Chris McDonald's analysis, not mine.
Nobody said anything about FUNimation not trying anything new. Clearly, this deal means that FUNimation can expand the number of series it can have a look at via a streaming only license. That is likely to increase the total number of distribution licenses they pick up. Of course it does not mean FUNimation committing to physical distribution of some five to ten series per season, sight unseen. That would be silly.
I think you read an impossible change into what MacDonald wrote, and any real world possible change, when set against the impossible change you are imagining, just doesn't look as dramatic. I never imagined that MacDonald was suggesting that FUNimation would be committing to a physical dub release of six or more series each season, sight unseen ... since while it would at first look like a welcome increase in distribution, when FUNimation collapsed in a smoking financial ruin, that would be a far less welcome sight. |
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fireaxe
Posts: 503 Location: Trois-Rivieres, Canada |
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Yeah, I think we all know that by now, but it still isn't clear how the average fan will benefit from this JV (as funico and chris seem to think we will). It's clear that this deal will make funimation a more profitable business, and that in itself is a good news, but wether or not the average fan will really benefit from this is still up in the air, and merely based on speculations as far as I'm concerned. And again, I'm speaking as a fan who spends a lot of money on anime, but barely ever watch streams.
That was (and still is) my point from the start. So let's say Funimation decides to distribute two new series (out of 5 licensed for streaming by funico, in any given season) for home video, what do you think will happen to the other three titles? Will they get stuck out in the limbo, or will it be possible for section 23, MB or any other licensor to buy the DVD/BD distribution rights off of them? That's why I'm fearing we could potentially see LESS physical releases in North America, if Funico is allowed to hold on distribution rights and doesn't do anything with them. Funimation might think that X title is too niche to warrant a dub and a BD/DVD release, but perhaps Sentai would commit to a sub-only release for the same title, but won't be able to. But maybe the rights reverts to the Japanese company after X months, I guess that's possible too. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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I don't see that they'd buy DVD/BD distributions rights at the outset except for series they were confident of ~ eg, Last Exile: Fam, a sequel to a series where the original must have worked well enough for them (even as a license rescue). If they are getting streaming rights with an option of DVD/BD rights (either explicit or understood), the option would have to have a reasonable cut-off (say, the season after the season that the series airs), or else the threat of license limbo would push the license price up. And the same for the streaming rights themselves ~ they'll have a set cut-off date (likely the season following the broadcast season), or come at a higher price. It is, of course, not in FUNimation's long term advantage to play dog in the manger with rights ~ FUNimation is better off as the first among equals than as the last company standing, since multiple successful firms maintains a better surrounding ecosystem than one can do. So there's no reason for Funico to pay the higher cost required to be able to play dog in the manger, with series that FUNimation is not interested in distributing after all. If that's right, then once the series has hit the rights cut-off(s), it'll go onto the original licensor's lists of series available for license, and the other distributors can have a crack at it. Where I see the risk of license limbo is streaming rights outside of North America. The cost numbers for streaming an English sub outside North America work out better for streaming in addition to North America on the same contract, than for independent streams. Its not implausible that Funico will go for streaming rights to the three main English Speaking Countries rights (US&Canada, UK&Eire, Australia&NZ), especially if any DVD/BD options can be split up three ways (and getting agreement to split DVD/BD rights three was might be simpler with the rising importance of BD, since North America is in the same BD region A as Japan, while the UK&Eire, Australia&NZ are in BD region B together) That is not certain, however, and I'm skeptical that Funico will pursue Northern Europe, South America and the Caribbean, the Middle East or Africa, as Crunchyroll has when they've had the chance. After all, Crunchyroll, given its pirate heritage, had an existing membership base clamoring for those rights (and still clamoring), and its first really big acquisition was a widely available Naruto simulcast, later expanded to worldwide outside Japan ... while niconico will be building its subscriber base from scratch. Its also possible that Funico strikes a standing deal with Anime-On-Demand ~ if that were on the basis of Funico sublicensing to AoD and sharing materials, it might be possible for AoD to stream all of Funico's simulcasts and pick up others on top. But then unless Funico pursues streaming to Australia&NZ ~ which is not always even licensed by the same company/division as North America, so is not always available in the same contract as North America ~ its easy to see Oz left out in the cold on Funico streaming licenses, except for series that are later picked up by either Madman or Siren. |
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Lord Geo
Posts: 2544 Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey |
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But, you see, that's part of the problem. You're indicating that this deal would result in FUNimation not wanting to take any chances; doing something as potentially big as a joint-venture between a home video licensor and a streaming licensor should result in some sort of risk or chance being taken. You can't really advance that far in business without taking chances. If all FUNimation is going to do is remain cautious with something that allows them a safer way to take a chance on something(s), then it will all be a waste in the end. For example, ADV wouldn't have gone anywhere if they never licensed Neon Genesis Evangelion, an anime that everyone else at the time thought would be an absolutely horrible license to go for. ADV took the risk and they went places that they never imagined before. Yeah, they then messed it up in other ways, but now people know of ADV's mistakes and can make sure that they don't go down that same path. I'm not saying that FUNimation should go to the extent of what ADV did and simply go full-on licensing of as much as they can, but to do something as big as a joint-venture yet remain the same cautious company as they were really results in nothing new; no big changes that some people would love to see from this. Streaming and simulcasting is going to be a big thing, yes, but if it results in barely any change is licensing for home video then what exactly did this joint-venture accomplish? Sure, NicoNico gets a larger share of anime for streaming, but FUNimation doesn't exactly grow in any way. And if FUNimation, the biggest dog in the yard, doesn't take a chance, then why should the other companies risk it? In the end, this joint-venture would be pointless, since outside of a larger streaming presence nothing is different. As they say "No risk, no reward" or "No pain, no gain"; i.e. in order to get somewhere new you have to risk something. This joint-venture gives FUNimation an easier time and a somewhat-cheaper method way to take a chance, but if they don't actually take that chance then what's the point? These companies would obviously love to try to return to even a portion of the pre-bubble-burst results, but simply keeping with the status-quo isn't going to get them anywhere. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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If what you mean by "taking chances" is "gambling with bigger odds of losing than of winning" ~ well, no, the deal won't result in FUNimation wanting to take those kind of chances. No North American anime distributor that survived the industry shakeout is the kind of company that takes those kinds of chances. Of course, that's independent of the deal. If what you mean by "taking chances" is "gambling with bigger odds of winning than losing, but still appreciable odds of losing anyway" ~ that's what they already do. The difference is not in how much of a chance they are willing to take, but how much of a risk an actual, specific, series represents. That is what changes with the deal: for series that perform well in streaming, the risk of picking them up drops. Every license involves a certain degree of risk. Just as with other media enterprises, you can partially offset the risk of underperformance by having a variety of offerings, so that performance below expectations can be offset by some other title performing above expectations. But its one thing to pick a set of titles where you expect that each one will probably succeed, though you know there is a risk that any of them might fail. Its quite another thing to pick a set of titles where you expect each one to fail. That's where improved market information comes in. You have six title that you think might succeed but based on your current information its less than a 50:50 chance for each of them. With more and better market information, you may be able to single out two or three that do have a better than 50:50 chance to pay back the cost of their dub. Where it would be reckless to take the risk on all six, you can justify taking the risk on those two or three, given the additional market information. And that is why we'd expect, with the freedom to pick their "I'd like to see how that performs in streaming" anime without having to worry about losing money on the streaming itself, that FUNimation will end up being able to justify more licenses. Which, a la Mohawk, is something likely to make dub fans happy.
But its possible to go overboard both ways ~ both playing too safe, and playing too recklessly. If you are expecting (1) Funico to license enough series to provide a solid platform for a simulcast streaming business and (2) FUNimation committing to giving every single one of those series a dub release, you are calling on them to play Russian Roulette with the market, and sooner or later it'll be a bullet in the chamber and they'll go bankrupt. I hope that FUNimation will behave with sufficient prudence so that they have a reasonable expectation of continuing as a going concern. Even if it means fewer releases from a season or two, it means more releases over the long haul. |
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Lord Geo
Posts: 2544 Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey |
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So you're saying that bringing over less from each season will equal more licenses in general? That makes no sense to me. Yeah, they're saving money from not having to pay for streaming rights, not to metion subtitling costs and probably some other smaller costs, but now you're indicating that FUNimation should be even pickier about their licenses with the extra information, and instead of choosing 4-6 licenses, where half of them might be too risky, they'll now only go for 2-3 licenses, which are all good shots. And then, somehow, that will result in FUNimation releasing more titles? I can understand if those non-Funico-related licenses are license rescues that have nothing to do with Funico, but FUNimation is already a license-rescuing machine among the industry. Naturally, FUNimation will also license newer animes on their own without Funico, so what about those titles? Would they simply just balance out the Funico licenses?
I never indicated that I want FUNimation to go overboard in any way; I want them to find that nice balance where they are willing to do more than they were doing pre-Funico, but not so much that they become the next ADV. But I have to admit that FUNimation's "dub everything we license" stance, while great to see, doesn't always agree with my personal tastes, since I tend to really like smaller-name titles that FUNimation wouldn't bother trying out since they would be too risky to warrant a dub. That's where I'm getting at in the end, as I want this Funico joint-venture to result in FUNimation being able to take on some of those more risky titles that they wouldn't have gone after on their own. Admittedly, I watch subs more than dubs, though I'm in no way an anti-dub guy; I'm more of a realist that knows that you can't dub everything in the first place, and in the end a lot of what I like and what interests me usually ends up getting sub-only releases. So maybe I'm not the type of person that Funico is even going to bother trying to please in the first place, which makes my hopes and thoughts moot and non-relevant to the issue. For example, the anime I want to see licensed more than anything is the Ring ni Kakero 1 anime series that Toei makes. Normally, a title like this is one that FUNimation wouldn't think about licensing, as it's barely talked about and gets near-completely ignored by North American anime fans, regardless of its actual quality, which is very good. With Funico, though, I'd love to see a title like Ring ni Kakero 1 get a chance to be brought over to North America, possibly even with a dub. I'd simply love to own it on DVD, and seeing something like Funico makes me hope it's more likely to happen rather than still remain an extremely-minor chance. |
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