Forum - View topicThe Proposal of Master Lee - A System For Anime Distribution
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Master Lee
 Posts: 47 |
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Greetings,
More and more it seems to me that the anime industry is crumbling at it's foundation. I was first made aware of this potential issue when I read Justin Sevakis's editorial "An Open Letter to the Industry" right here on the Anime News Network site. I was taken aback when I'd first read it. I had just recently been able to get into anime only to find that problems that have been eating away at the industry since it's creation may cause the anime industry to disappear or at least become an even more isolated industry. Worse yet, it sounded like this could come about in my lifetime. I noticed there was a forum thread related to the editorial and so I dove in and read every single entry. The posters were very passionate about the issue and had many great ideas. Most of these ideas seemed to be centered around anime distribution via the internet. While many of the postings touched on various concepts for it, none of them ever ended up being fully fleshed out into something everyone could agree on. Over the following week I began designing a concept of a service for anime distribution via the internet. Whenever a poster mentioned something that they would need or expect in an online anime service (such as rentable content) I would update my system to accommodate it. When I was done I had read every post on all fifty pages of the thread and had a detailed 30+ page rough draft. To my dismay the thread was locked less than a day before my proposals completion and so, it was left to collect dust in a long lost region of my hard drive. Over the past few months though I've noticed more articles related to potential problems involving the anime industry, such as the articles here at ANN about ADV. This got me thinking once again about my old proposal so, after e-mailing the editor at ANN and getting permission to post my topic despite it's moderate relation to the aforementioned locked thread, I decided to revise, majorly shorten, and post at least some of what I had in mind. I'm curious to see others opinions about the online service I envision. Hopefully, with the questions, complaints, suggestions, etc. of the rest of you forum goers it could grow into a concept that could meet all of our needs. I suppose that before anyone wastes the time reading my thoughts they should at least know a little bit about my background... or lack thereof... O - I am a 24 year old Caucasian male living in the United States. O - My official education went no further than public high school. O - My writing ability, spelling, and grammar are quite out of practice and, to be honest, never were much to begin with. O - Math and pricing aren't really my strong points. As such, all prices listed are merely for the purpose of making an example and not actually what I consider to be a realistic price. O - I've never really been into forums and have little experience in them. Despite this, the above mentioned issue brought me here... and this will be my first posting on ANN. O - I have virtually no knowledge of Japan or any other country, except for the fact that they do indeed exist... at least on maps. O - I have little to no knowledge of the anime industry and would be hard pressed to name more than a few creators and companies involved. O - I have little to no knowledge of business and marketing (especially as it relates to the anime industry), aside from what I've learned being a consumer. O - While I have been a "fan" of anime since childhood, when I first saw "Lensman" and various other anime on the Sci-Fi channel. I sadly did not have the money or connections necessary to locate and purchase anime. I'd never heard of a fansub and even if I had, I would have most likely been unable to acquire it. Therefore, at the time I was never able to grow from being a "fan" to an actual fan. As anime was unavailable to me, I was swept up in something that WAS available; the newly established and nerdy hobby of computer gaming. Which at the time was an almost underground hobby where shareware was swapped between close friends and other budding gamers to spread the art form, much like I hear early fansubs were for the anime industry. In the last 2 years, with the advent of "next-gen" consoles, I found that the time I spent on computer / video games began to wane. The combination of me having a job and more free time rekindled my old interest in anime and I turned to the internet to track down the titles that got me interested in the first place. I had hoped to indulge in some much needed nostalgia, but alas most of these titles turned out to be so old as to be unlocatable, even used, on the internet. I did, however, discover many intriguing new titles as well as websites from which to purchase them. As my pitiful collection slowly grew to laughable I came across this page, Anime News Network, whose handy encyclopedia made researching potential buys a snap. Then as the future was looking bright I received an earth shaking slap to the face in the form of Mr. Sevakis's editorial. So what can someone with virtually no knowledge of the depth of the problem or even the industry itself ever hope to propose that could be of use? I realize that the points above won't exactly give anyone high hopes for anything I have to say, but I assure you all that I have just as much of a desire to see the anime industry thrive and grow as even the most stalwart paragon of anime fandom. Therefore, I'm swallowing my pride and putting my faith in the old saying that "wisdom comes from the mouth of babes"... so without further ado I'll get onto my actual proposal. I'd like everyone to keep in mind that this is all merely my opinion on a possible online service / distribution method aimed at solving the problems (as I see them) facing the anime industry and I in no way believe it to be the best or only way. The Proposal of Master Lee The concept for my proposed service was created with three assumptions in mind. Please note these assumptions are just that... assumptions. Assumptions Taken into Consideration O - The anime industry is going through a crisis that could potentially result in it's disappearance or cause it to become an isolationist industry with little to no world market interaction. O - Fansubs / Piracy whether good or evil, moral or immoral, are having a negative impact on the anime industry. O - The consumer base for raw, sub, dub, online "soft copy" and DVD products are all equally sized and deserve an equal voice in their desire for their preferred product format. Please Note: I'm not stating that I personally feel any or all of the above assumptions are actually true. Merely that I designed the system with the possibility that the above three assumptions are in fact true. In the event that any or all of the above assumptions are proven to be false the system would still remain functional while prepared for the possibility that they are or could be true. I also set up some key requirements that my proposed service would need to meet... Key Requirements O - Be available to a large consumer base - This would mean that the program would need to be free to download, run on a variety of platforms and offer multi-lingual support. When I say multi-lingual I mean the interface of the service itself, not the products being raw, sub, and dub. O - Be safe and user friendly - Meaning the program for the service would need to be free of Spyware, Malware, and viruses, not be bogged down with seizure inducing ads, and also have an interface that is easy to use and understand. O - Offer a vast library of titles - Ideally from the nearly extinct to the latest upcoming releases, because a title you've never seen before is new to you whether it's ancient or not. O - Offer a compelling alternative to fansubs / piracy - It would need to achieve close to simultaneous release of raw / sub / dub or something equally attractive to the consumer. The service would need to be more convenient than fansubs / piracy and offer things that fansubs / piracy simply couldn't compete with. O - Fulfill the needs / expectations of each consumer - In other words the service would need to offer raw, sub, and dub releases of products. These products would need to be available to preview, purchase, and rent. O - Be profitable for the anime industry - Without this as a goal my entire proposal would be a moot point. While the first three requirements are extremely important to me they don't really warrant much discussion at the moment so I'll be focusing on the last three for this forum post. Since my goal is to design a concept for a service aimed at distribution of anime via the (series of tubes) known as the internet I figured a good place to start would be looking at similar and currently existing services. Once such service is Steam which is owned by a video game company known as Valve. No, I am not saying "Put aNim3z on sTe4m!!!!11", but Steam is a currently existing and successful service aimed at online distribution and the overcoming of product piracy. The way Steam is designed already has the first two requirements covered and as such it seemed like a good basic concept that could, albeit with many changes, be made into a service for anime products instead of video games. Getting Started / The Account System The program for the service would need to be available for download at no cost. By having a free download it makes it more appealing to the consumer. Likewise, creating and having an account for the service would also have to be completely free. This means no monthly fees. When you create your account you would be required to provide information such as your name, e-mail, age, location, etc... Your account would then be your record of everything that you've previewed, rented, purchased, etc... while using the service. This would mean that you could log into your account on any computer that has the service program installed and have access to your products. Your account would also give you access to a lot of free features such as product information, upcoming releases, previews, reviews, and so forth. Why free accounts with no monthly fees? The reason for no monthly fees is simply that they tend to punish the casual consumer while only really benefiting those who consume massive amounts. For Example: Assume the service had a $10 monthly fee with unlimited viewing amounts. Consumer 1 has time to watch 6 episodes a month while Consumer 2 has time to watch 20 episodes a month. After 2 months: Consumer 1 has seen 12 episodes for $20. Consumer 2 has seen 40 episodes for $20. After 6 months: Consumer 1 has seen 36 episodes for $60. Consumer 2 has seen 120 episodes for $60. After 2 years: Consumer 1 has seen 144 episodes for $240. Consumer 2 has seen 480 episodes for $240. In the end Consumer 2 is getting far more for their money. On the other hand, the more casual Consumer 1 is better for the company as they would consume less product and have less demand on the system for the same amount of money. This also leads to the problem of who the company should focus their market on. Either way someone would lose out. Monthly fees also put pressure on a consumer as they may feel they are wasting money if they don't make use of the service frequently. Without monthly fees there is no pressure or time constraints so a consumer is far more likely to take interest in the service, feel safe and secure with the service, and stay with it for the long haul. Wouldn't this go against the key requirement of being profitable for the industry? At first it would appear this way, but in the long run the company benefits. Even if you were to make an account and enjoy all the freebies without ever actually purchasing a product the company would still be making money due to all the marketing data collected. For Example: Suppose I make an account and never purchase anything. The only thing I do is watch one preview episode of an anime in the horror genre. I rate the episode as a 5 out of 5. I then logout and never sign in again my whole life. From just that one time it would be known that at least one 24 year old male living in the United States has an interest in the horror genre and obviously really liked at least that single episode of the specific product previewed. Had I purchased the product it would have also shown that the price listed was within my price range. If I keep the service for years and continue to buy, it would eventually show how much I'm willing to spend yearly. While this may not seem like much, imagine if this data was collected from thousands or millions of people. This kind of marketing data would be quite profitable in the long run. The Multi-Stage Release System In an effort to address the desire for raw, sub, and dub formats I've taken the common computer / video game concept of add-ons, patching, and updating and designed a similar approach to handle anime products. I have dubbed this the "Multi-Stage Release System". This release system would apply to all online / "soft copy" episodes of a product whether for preview, purchase, or rent and would allow them to be released in a layered fashion. Hopefully, this would meet consumers needs and expectations while possibly being faster than or at least offering more perks than fansubs / piracy. Stages of Release Stage 1: Initial Release - This would be the raw / native language release. The native consumers would get the same thing they are used to, in that they would have access to the product right on it's day of release. The foreign consumer would also have access to a product in Stage 1 form on it's native release date. Each product would have an overall description as well as an optional per episode summary. The description and summary should be sufficient enough that a foreign consumer would at least have an overall idea of what's happening. Stage 2: Bare-bones Speed Sub Release - This would add the option to view the episode with a very limited form of subtitling. This subbing would lack the fancy features common in standard subtitles such as nice fonts or colors, karaoke effects, or sign translations. The quality of translation wouldn't even need to be that good. The sole purpose of this release would be to get a subbed version of the episode to the consumer as quickly as possible to beat fansubs / piracy to the punch. Preferably within hours or a day of an episodes Stage 1 release. Stage 3: Official Subtitled Release - This would replace the Stage 2 release and provide the expected level of subtitling. This could include the extra benefits of more appealing fonts and colors, karaoke effects, and sign translations. Most important though would be the better translation and overall increased quality of implementation. Stage 4: Dubbed Release - This Stage would introduce the option to view an episode in dubbed format. Stage X or ?: Variable Content Release - Content of this Stage would include anything that could be released before, after, or as part of any other Stage of release. The content could be optional features along the lines of DVD style extras like clean opening / closing, character guides, concept art / sketches, interviews, etc. This Stage of content would be absent from previews and potentially rented content. Why use a Multi-Stage Release System? To get products / content to the consumer faster. While it may not be a simultaneous release of a product in raw, sub, and dub format at least the foreign consumer can get the product on it's native release date, albeit in raw format. With a DVD release all the content that will be on the disc needs to be finalized before the discs can be made. By using Staged releases the main content of a product could be provided right away and the additional content could come later without holding up the initial distribution of the product. How would this Multi-Stage Release System work with older products or products currently on the market? The system would mainly benefit upcoming products that were created with this kind of system in mind. Older or current products offered through the service would be provided in whatever format (raw, sub, and / or dub) they were already in, but based on marketing data collected through the service they may prove popular enough to get updated with a sub, dub, sequel, etc... Would all products reach Stage 3 and / or Stage 4 release? Ideally yes, but unfortunately lots of animes never receive a dubbing and many don't even receive subbing. On the bright side the marketing data collected through the system would allow companies to see which products should receive a subbed and / or dubbed release. If a product reaches a Stage 4 release does that mean it can only be viewed in a dubbed format? Each Stage would merely add additional content. So a product that reached Stage 4 could still be viewed as raw, sub, or dub. The only exception to this would be that a Stage 3 release would replace a Stage 2 release. This seems solely focused on online "soft copy" release of products. Does this mean you're suggesting that DVD's be done away with? Granted, the Multi-Stage Release System would only apply to online "soft copies", but I'm not suggesting the end of DVD's. There is a market for them and to ignore this consumer base would be in violation of my own key requirements listed above. Due to the marketing data collected by user accounts on the service it should bolster DVD sales by making it much easier to determine what products would be profitable if released on DVD and also which locations and age groups to target. If a product has a DVD release available it would also be able to be purchased through the service. Maybe, even having the option of a discounted combo offer where you would get the DVD and the online "soft copy" of the product. Purchasable Content (Specifically in regards to online "soft copies" and the Multi-Stage Release System) Any purchased product would be associated with the account that purchased it and would always be available to be watched via that account. To best explain how the Multi-Stage Release System would work in regards to purchased products lets look at an example: Let's assume the consumer is me and the product is "Generic Fantasy Saga". Upon logging into the service I notice that the upcoming anime "Generic Fantasy Saga" has just been released. I select the product to view it's information... Title: "Generic Fantasy Saga" Total Episodes: 26 Current Stage of Release l--> Episodes 1 to 26: Stage 1 (raw) \--> Extra Content: None Currently DVD Release: None Currently Previewable Episodes: 1, 2, 3, 14 Product Description: "The kingdoms of the North and the South are on the brink of war. The world is overrun by monsters and even the gods themselves have a hand in things. According to a prophecy from the land of the East a young peasant from the West could be the key to ending the war. Join the adventures of the young peasant Hero and his companions Buddy and Pal as they embark on a generic quest to save the world." Upon reading this I decide it might be interesting (I'm easily amused) and so I check out the first episode since it's available as a preview. Since it's only in it's Stage 1 (raw) release right now and I don't speak Japanese I read the optional episode summary... Episode 1: "The young peasant Hero sets out on an errand to a nearby town. Upon his arrival he meets up with his friend Buddy and learns that Pal was taken by monsters. Together they rescue Pal and learn a shocking secret." The description and summary together were enough that I could grasp what was happening in the first episode. I enjoyed it enough that I also watch episodes 2 and 3 as well as the 14th episode that's available for preview since I want to ensure the series didn't go downhill later on. Despite the fact that the product isn't in my preferred Stage of release I decide to buy it. When "Generic Fantasy Saga" reaches a Stage 2, 3, or 4 release I would be notified upon logging in and would then be able to watch the product with it's new Stage of content. In the event that Extra / Bonus content, a DVD release, a new season, or a sequel / spin off related to the product becomes available I would also be notified. If you purchase a product in one Stage of release and then a newer Stage of release becomes available (like in the example above) would your purchased product be automatically updated to that new Stage or would you have to pay extra to "upgrade" to the next Stage? I'm still strongly debating this issue. On one hand it makes sense that you should get new Stages for free on products you purchased. Because had you waited for a DVD release in your area you'd have all the features of Stage 1, 3, and possibly 4. On the other hand by getting the Stage 1 release you're getting to see the product on it's initial release day instead of waiting for a local DVD release. Personally I'm leaning towards the free updates to purchased products. Although, if it went the way of pay to "upgrade" I feel the price would have to be very low. How low could depend on what Stage the product was in when you bought it. Since the earlier you buy the faster the companies profit and the low "upgrade" cost would be extra incentive to purchase early. Rentable Content (Specifically in regards to online "soft copies" and the Multi-Stage Release System) Products would be rentable by individual episodes, seasons, and possibly even full series. Any rented products would be kept track of on the users account so that they would know what they've rented and what Stage of release it was in when it was rented. When you first attempt to view a rented product a countdown would begin, during which time it may be viewed as many times as you want and after which you'd lose access to that product unless you re-rent it. Each episode would have it's own countdown so that if you rented a whole 26 episode series you wouldn't be forced to watch all the episodes within a strict time limit. What if I rent a product in it's Stage 1 release and then it gets updated to a new Stage of release? Much like the issue above involving purchased products I'm still debating this one. Currently I have two ideas... Discounted Re-rents: If a product you rented reaches a new Stage of release you would be able to re-rent that product at a discount. This discount would be available once per Stage update until the product reaches it's final Stage of release (likely Stage 3 or Stage 4) after which you could watch it once at a discount and then any future rentals would be the normal price. Free / Major Discount Re-rent of Final Stage: With this method once a product you rented reaches it's final Stage of release you would be able to rent it one more time for free or at a major discount, assuming that when you first rented it it wasn't already in it's final stage of release. How the Service Could Fit into the Anime Industry The most logical way I can think of for a service like this to work would be to have it owned by a third party and in a symbiotic relationship with anime companies. Having a third party running the service should allow for a larger library of titles since they could use products created by all anime companies. A Very Basic Flowchart of the Symbiotic Relationship 1: Anime companies create and provide the products that would comprise the library of products available through service. 2: The service would handle the distribution of these products as well as compiling marketing data from it's users. 3: The anime companies would use the marketing data from the service to aid in the creation of new products, improve old ones, and decide on titles and locations for DVD releases. The cycle would then repeat itself. As time went on products could be developed with the service and the Multi-Stage Release System in mind, thus things would be able to operate far more efficiently. Both groups would depend on the other to turn a profit and this should theoretically help them both grow and thrive. What kind of timescale do you have in mind for this proposal? Are you suggesting immediate implementation of this service or is it more of a "down the road" goal? As indicated above the service would require the cooperation of the anime companies in order to attain it's full potential. They would need to be willing to have their products distributed through the service and ideally created to use the Multi-Stage Release System. Switching from the current method of making multiple area specific raw, sub, and / or dub DVD's to using the Muli-Stage Release System for initial product distribution would require a lot of time. Therefore, the service isn't being proposed with the idea of "immediate" implementation, but rather as a possible method that could be gradually integrated for distribution in the future. Closing Statements Well that's everything I can think of to say without wasting too much more time and space. So thank you kindly to anyone possessing the constitution, willpower, and / or masochistic tendencies necessary to read some or all of this proposal. I did my best to remain unbiased and present a concept for a service which I hope meets the needs of everyone. Obviously meeting the needs of everyone is impossible, but the system is designed in a modular way so that it can be easily modified. So if you have any comments, questions, complaints, suggestions, etc... I would love to hear from you provided that... O - Since I took the time to write all of this, you take the time to read all of it. Perhaps your issue has already been addressed. O - You read the posts of others since they took the time to write them, and perhaps your issue has already been addressed. O - You try to remain unbiased, primarily to avoid arguments. O - The ethics of fansubs / piracy or the argument of sub vs. dub isn't brought up as I will completely ignore it. If you want a response from me directly just throw in a "Hey Master Lee" or some such thing. I suppose I'll take my leave now as I've already taken up more than enough space for a single posting. Thanks again to anyone who read even a portion... Master Lee |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I think it is a wonderful idea, just the sort of thing I have been hoping for, and indeed arguing for. Very well thought out, you presented rational arguments, and for someone who claimed he only had education up to High School, your proposal was very mature.
Let me put it this way. A DVD costs (where I live) $30 for 3-5 episodes. That is $6 to $10 for each episode. As long as this service offered the dub (stage 4) for less than $6, then I would have little hesitation in signing up. I would also get Stage 2 and the upgrade (Stage 3) when it became available. A notification system would greatly help (which I believe you mentioned). A very good proposal indeed. Now, you need to convince people in both industries (the R1 licensing companies let alone the makers back in Japan) that it is a worthwhile proposition. Good on you. I will watch this thread with interest. |
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Master Lee
Posts: 47 |
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To dtm42:
Thank you kindly for your response. I'm glad to see the first reply I received was a postive one. The pricing you mentioned seems to be pretty accurate for my area as well. I see you also noticed the biggest problem with my proposal. Convincing the R1 licensing companies would be a pretty hard sell, but I'd imagine no where near as much as the makers back in Japan. On the bright side, from a technical aspect it shouldn't be too difficult to take up the Multi-Stage system as opposed to DVD's for initial product release. Master Lee |
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ShadowTrader
 Posts: 231 Location: NJ |
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What the hell are you talking about? There is no problem with the business the greedy bastards just want more money. I have never even given them one penny of my money and I don't expect to. The way I see it they just ran into the same problem the music industry has, and there is no way that a multi-billion dollar industry will go away in our lifetime.
I have a BS in finance and understand the business world pretty well. Trust me when I say that they are just crying wolf. In the world of free markets, if you can't compete you will die out, and the anime companies have just been thrown a curve ball but they haven't struck out just yet. The way I see it they just want profits from all the fans overseas. The best way to do that and not alianate the fans is to consolidate the business. This poses two problems, with no competitors the anime thats going to be realeased will be shit and the culture won't allow it. So the alternative solution is to make the anime worth paying for. How do you convince consumers that a product is worth a particular value you ask? Well, that's easy you make it something no can live without, or make it a cultural taboo to not own it. Why do movies make millions on the big screen, and anime don't? Because they are not as mainstream. To do this the best solution is to be faster then the pirates, meaning get the anime out faster to foreign markets then they can be subbed. Impossible you say? Sure, for the current slow ass degenerates running the show it is, but that is why they need to consolidate, increase their staff, increase their output, and hit all markets at the same time. This in turn will give them royalties and all the pluses of putting anime on TV before it even touches the internet. With a flood of anime on TV it will become as mainstream as movies and all the other crap that is out there. Bingo! Now you have to rename it Animewood and create a culture all around it and have paparrazi chasing voice actors down the streets of Anime Hills. Crazy you say? No, its the best way. Screw stage one stage two stage three... Just one stage= hit em all hit em hard. Other wise you leave room for the pirates and other companies to reap profits from the markets you missed. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Well, I like your proposal, and it's the sort of service I think I'd be interested in, or at the very least curious enough to check out.
I think the failings of this proposal, however, is that the industry won't desire to collaborate to this extent. I think their best goal is to integrate the fansub community which is willing to cooperate with them (obviously these people want to see anime soon) and do something which nearly all companies contribute to over time. It might start out as just one, but over time more and more companies and shows get on board with it. It's really something the Japanese need to be doing themselves though (with the American companies being there mainly to serve the purpose of dubbing and advertising), because the licensing issues would be impossible to overcome otherwise. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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@Xanas: You are correct when you point out how the Japanese industry will be reluctant to do anything. It is a sad fact that they could do so much more to help the industry out, but refrain from doing so for whatever reason.
@ShadowTrader: Have you even looked at the sales figures released? Try this link. You will see that the R1 industry is in dire trouble. If we want to save the R1 industry (not to mention the R4, which is where I live), then we have to do something. Anything. Simultaneous release is a start, but were you just joking with the "Animewood"? Anime will never surpass mainstream movies. It doesn't need to in order to survive. It is debatable whether we even want Anime to become mainstream. All I want is for the English-language licensing and dubbing industry to survive, at levels no lower than what we were at two years ago. Is that too hard? |
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GrdAdmiral
 Posts: 101 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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Its not just the anime industry that is having a slow sales pitch. General DvD sales across the board are low, all over the world. Everyone is always quick to blame fansubs, and in all reality, it really has very little on the project.
With the growing push for HD DvD and Blue Ray Discs, many companies are switching to these formats and phasing out the regular dvds. Especially with the launch of the PS3. How ever, your general audience doesn't own a PS3 or an HD DvD or Blue Ray disc player. I my self at this time have no will to go purchase one until the prices at least drop to an "affordable" rate. Not everyone has the money to go and upgrade to the newest technology on a whim. Most of us middle class have to work hard for our money, and save for many months to buy nice elegant things. This is nothing new to big business though. We saw the same thing with the introduction of the DvD over the VHS. Give it a year and the sales will drive back up. Or at least till they decide whats better then Blue Ray or HD DvD. |
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ShadowTrader
Posts: 231 Location: NJ |
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What is that supposed to show me? Let me see a damn balance sheet or some internal information on sales figures. I can tell you right now you won't find it. The industry is not even close to being in trouble, they are just greedy. The initial production companies make a ton of dough and the liscensing companies are like vultures trying to scoop out profits from other markets. They can't compete with all the pirating out there so now they are crying out to the fans for support. I won't even give them a penny, in fact I'm thinking about burning all the fansubs I've downloaded into DVDs and selling them online just to spite them. |
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cloud1989
 Posts: 274 |
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what does a magazine editor have to do with anything, as to the TC, I can see you put a lot of thought into your idea with the sheer amount of words you have but I gonna have to read over it again when I have time to see what I think. And as for you shadowtrader, its may be true that we can't prove the industry is in trouble with hard public facts but we can't prove it isn't, and with alot of recent events, well, those things would not have happened if everything was fine. And as for selling fansubs, even the most hardcore of pirates(internet alteast) look down on that, while fansubs may be debatable themselves, selling them for profit is not, not to mention you would now be going from civil penalties to criminal, and your in the US to boot. Sorry, I shouldn't be feeding the fire for a fansub debate but I just had to respond, well as far as I know the anime industry will probably not go past the basic TV download system now, paying $2 for downloads with drm, they may branch off into subscription but it would be quite awhile before did what you suggest if ever.
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ShadowTrader
Posts: 231 Location: NJ |
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Obviuosly I was joking to make a point. But I believe the fansubbers have every right to do what they are doing even though it might be immoral or illegal. But this is not the topic at hand the main focus is that you claim the industry is in trouble as a direct result of piracy and these fansubbers. This is a complete fabrication, as the industry was already in "trouble" when compared with others. By saying this I'm not contradicting myself I'm only trying to point out that it was a poorly run industry from the start when compared with other business models. From my point of view, the industry just does not have enough business sense to keep its monopolistic grip on liscensing and distributing anime. When they lost this grip they started panicking and caused an uproar where none was needed. I enjoy anime but not enough to collect DVD's when I can just watch them online for free. I'm not saying I wouldn't pay for them in the future its just right now I have no incentive to. No one in their right mind would pay for something they can get for free somewhere else, unless it was superior to the free product. So in order for the industry to compete, they need to improve their quality. This will match the speed of the pirates to the quality of industry, and those who want quality and extras will stick with industry and those that just want cheap entertainment will not give a crap about the quality. The industry just needs to refocus, stop crying, and get to business. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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Well you may have a BS in business but you also have a "BS" in common sense too. Greedy bastards you say? No way a multi-million dollar industry will go away you say? So what do you call the departure of Geneon? What do you call the dramatic decrease in R1 dvd sales then? If they're so greedy how come so many in the industry barely make ends meet? You may be educated in business in general but not one bit in regards to the anime industry. |
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Master Lee
Posts: 47 |
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To Shadow Trader: Thank you for your response. Currently you seem to be the harshest critic of my posting and that makes your feedback very important to me. Though I hate to impose, could I trouble you to be a bit less hostile in your postings and refrain from starting up a fansub / piracy debate?
My statement that the anime industry could fall in my lifetime was merely my initial reaction to the editorial "An Open Letter to the Industry". It was this reaction that sparked my creating of the original proposal of a service. While there might not be any absolute concrete evidence released publicly to state that the anime industry is going under, I built the systems of the service with the assumption that it is or could be falling. I hate to impose once more, but please refrain from discussions about whether there is actually a problem facing the industry or not. I'm not trying to shoot down your opinion that the industry is doing fine, merely point out that even if the industry is secretly raking in the dough my proposal should still be viable and useful to consumers. It's the service being proposed that is the topic not whether the assumptions behind it's creation are actually true. You'd said "I have never even given them one penny of my money and I don't expect to." Since you're posting on this forum I assume you have an interest in anime. Therefore, I presume that simply means your needs as a consumer are not being met. Might I ask why you don't pay or plan to? Perhaps something can be worked into the service / system to accommodate your needs. You're correct that the music industry has faced a piracy situation. The computer gaming industry has as well. These two industries addressed the issue by taking up online distribution along with their current form of distribution. This is part of what my proposal above attempts to address while taking into consideration the differences between anime and the the music / computer gaming industries. Even if fansubs / piracy aren't actually causing problems for the anime industry by taking them into account for my proposed service it should (in theory) make the service more stable. You stated that you feel the anime industry is looking to get overseas profits and that you feel the best way to do this is to consolidate the companies. You also point out the problem that this would eliminate competition. I agree that they want overseas profit and I'm ok with that since I want their anime. I also agree that the elimination of competition from consolidating would be a bad idea. I don't feel however, that the companies would need to consolidate. My opinion is that they should do as mentioned in my proposal. The companies that create the anime would remain separate. They would merely change their distribution method to using the proposed service. This way there would still be competition among the creators. That combined with the marketing data collected through the service should ensure that consumers receive quality products while the companies themselves get their hands on some foreign profits. The collection of marketing data could also address the issue you mentioned about anime becoming more mainstream. By knowing where to market products the industry could gain a larger consumer base. This information could even aid in knowing which TV channels and broadcast location would be the most beneficial. I agree with you also that the anime industry would have to attempt to be faster than fansubs / piracy and in fact it was one of the main issues in my proposal. I think the proposal addresses it fairly well although I admit it would take time and cooperation for it to work. To my knowledge fansubs / piracy groups get products when they are released on DVD in a raw format. They then sub and distribute them. If anime companies did not provide the DVD first and instead distributed online through the service it would make the product available worldwide before the fansub / piracy groups even got a first look at it. If the product was then updated with speedsubs or offical subs there would be no need to fansub / pirate the product. Dubbing and DVD releases could then follow suit. Thank you once again for your response. To Xanas: Thank you for the reply. I'm glad you like my proposal. Just as you'd said the issue of getting the industry to cooperate is (and will likely always be) the most glaring problem with my proposal. Sadly I don't think I'll ever have the resources, knowledge, or connections to even begin to address such an issue. If you or anyone else has any input on the matter though... I'm all ears. As for your comment about integrating the fansub community... In the forum thread related to the editorial "An Open Letter to the Industry" this very issue was mentioned. (My apologies, I don't know enough about forums yet to post a link to it, but the thread shouldn't be hard to locate.) Some posters on that thread had claimed that anime companies had actually tried hiring fansubbing groups at one point and it didn't work out for either of them. I don't know the validity of any of those statements though and I haven't done any research on that particular topic. I did however take what you said into consideration and came up with this possible addendum to my above proposal... Built in Fansubbing Support / Community Features In the video gaming industry "modding" has long been an accepted and even encouraged thing. Fansubbing could be addressed with a similar approach. This could work by offering a fansubbing program through the service. This could be either in the form of an optionally download-able program or actually integrated into the interface of the service itself. Such a program would offer the ability to create your own subtitling using various fonts, colors, etc. For Example: The users will be myself and Fansubber-X. The anime will be "Generic Fantasy Saga". (Please Note: Fansubber-X is not a pirate, but an "ethical" fansubber who wishes to make a product available to foreign consumers. Fansubber-X is also a fictional person created for this example.) When "Generic Fantasy Saga" is first released as a Stage 1 product it would only be in it's raw / native language. Fansubber-X decides to use the service's fansubbing program to create his own subs for the anime. When I look at the product information I would see that there have been fansubs made for this product. I could then pick to watch the product using Fansubber-X's fansubs. I could then rate this fansub. What would make a built in fansub community desirable for fansubbers? Well for those whose intent is piracy... it would offer nothing. For those whose purposes are more ethical it would offer a legal way to fansub. Including a feature to let fansubs be rated would allow a competent fansubber or group to become popular through the service. Fansubbing through the service would also be a direct help to the anime companies that most groups claim to be trying to help. If such a fansubbing community became popular enough it might even allow anime companies to bypass a Stage 2 (speedsub) release and instead concentrate on getting a Stage 3 (official sub) or Stage 4 (dubbing) done. Any feedback (especially from you Xanas) about this possible addendum is welcome. If it's well liked it'll become a part of the proposal. Thanks again for the reply! I look forward to anything you have to say in the future. To GrdAdmiral: Thank you for the reply. I agree that not everyone has a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player. I myself don't have either of them. I'm curious to know your opinion of the proposed service. Would you use such a service if it was available? If not, are there any changes that could be made to make the service more appealing to you? Are there any needs that you as a consumer have that aren't being met by the current distribution methods? To cloud1989: Thank you for your reply. I did put a lot of work into this proposal although what you see posted is only the revised and shortened version covering the main concepts. I'm eagerly looking forward to see your opinion after you've had time to read my proposal. And yes I'd prefer you don't feed the fire on the fansub debate. You mentioned that you doubt the anime industry will go beyond just a TV download system and that it would probably be awhile, if ever, before what I proposed would come into being. Personally I still think creating the proposed service is a possibility since there are currently online services that offer anime. The main difference would be that the proposed system is designed to use a layered distribution system which could prove very efficient in the future. Although that's admittedly a long term objective. To ALL current and future posters: If this topic turns into an argument about whether the the anime industry really is falling or a battle about fansubs / piracy... it will be locked and done away with. I'd prefer that this doesn't happen. I hate to be rude and say this but please stay focused on the topic. To clarify.... What the topic IS about... The topic is to work together as one big think tank and devise a system that we can hopefully all agree on. I've laid the basic groundwork and I'm very eager to see the ideas / changes that others might have. If you don't like something about the proposal offer an alternative. If you have an idea use examples and flesh it out. Everyone's opinions and needs matter on this issue... at least to me they do. Please... as hard as it can be to do so... try to avoid letting your postings be too influenced by your personal feelings. The goal is to make something for every consumer whether you agree with them or not. So Master Lee why did you even mention a "problem bringing down the industry" and "fansubs / piracy" if that wasn't the main topic of discussion? As for the "problem that could bring down the industry part", it was necessary to mention it because it was the reason I thought up the proposed service in the first place. Does this mean that I "truly" believe there is such a problem? No... not necessarily. It was just my initial reaction to reading the editorial "An Open Letter to the Industry." As I'd stated I'd only just gotten into anime when I read it so I was scared the industry might be doomed. At the time I started the original proposal I hadn't done any research into the matter and was going solely off the editorial and comments left by posters on the thread related to that editorial. The proposed service was meant to aid consumers, address possible problems facing the industry, and result in increased company profits. Even if the anime industry is secretly making a killing... does it really negate my proposal? Would the benefits the service offers to the consumer no longer matter? Why I ever mentioned fansubs / piracy is simple. It was going to come up eventually. Had I ignored the issue I would be confronted by claims that my proposed system would fail because of fansubs / piracy. I don't know the industry... I don't know how they are doing financially. I'm just another consumer. Here's an example to clarify why I created the service with the assumption that fansubs / piracy where having a negative effect on the industry... If I was planning to build a department store I would be sure to plan out a form of fire suppression, such as having a sprinkler system. Is this because the store is 100% guaranteed to catch fire? No of course not, but by building the store to take the possibility of a fire into account the store will be a better and more long term investment. So once again I beseech you all... please stay on topic. And If you have something to say, leave out your personal feelings and take the assumptions mentioned into consideration. Even if you don't feel the assumptions are correct by taking them into consideration you will account for those possibilities down the road. My apologies to everyone if this sounded rude and harsh. I have no intention of offending anyone. Thanks once again to everyone for their replies and I hope that they will keep coming. Sincerely, Master Lee |
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Animastryfe
 Posts: 152 Location: Vancouver |
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Master Lee, I think your English skills are superb (at least by internet standards).
One thing I have not noticed in your proposal is this: If I buy a series (or a few episodes), would it be only watchable streamed or can I download it? If it can be downloaded, then what's to stop me from going to a friend's house and downloading it for him too? I think Steam has something to prevent this, but I have not used it in a long time. Sorry if this has already been covered in your posts. |
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ShadowTrader
Posts: 231 Location: NJ |
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I'm not going to defend my credentials on this forum, but from my education and from work experience I can tell you right now that sales figures don't mean crap. In fact lower sales could mean many different things aside from less demand for the product, like poor distribution, bad marketing, lower demand for luxury goods (in economics this is part of opportunity cost, meaning if the economy is bad people will cut back on things they can live without), also internal infrastructure could be poorly run, etc. etc. I've done many fundamental analysis of different firms but I can't do one of the anime industry just based on sales when I don't have access to all the information. But from my experience slower sales figures usually reflect poorer managment and future planning then it does lower demand. I'm not aware if any of the companies are publicly traded ones so I haven't been able to look at concrete figures for sure, but just from the sales number you can't claim the industry is in trouble. Geneon going under could also mean many things as well, like that they were poorly managed and couldn't keep their costs down, they couldn't compete, or they didn't insulate themselves for a turn down in sales and got caught in the red. I've seen the last one the most, where firms forecast higher sales for future quarters and then spend all their savings and borrow money to produce even more but then the sales never come and the company can't pay back its loans and is forced to default. To Master Lee: If I seemed like I was attacking anything or anyone, then that was not my intent, I was just a bit over passionate cause I had debate with my friend about this topic the day before. Your proposal is well written and thought out. It seems to me that the anime companies are slow to getting online. If they want to compete with the fansubbers on speed, then online subscription sites with official, high quality, and fast fansubs is the way to go. However this where my arguement comes into play that they don't have any business sense, that they still don't have anything close to what you proposed. In this day and age of Youtube and other video sharing sites, I still can't believe the industry did not see this coming and stuck with just producing DVDs. Youtube alone attracts millions of visitors every day, and for them to not tap into the internet market as soon as possible just shows that the industry is fundamentally flawed. I'm not too sure about the specifics, but your idea is good but the plan is just to convoluted and too constricting. My problem comes what if I want to watch 5 different series from 5 different companies, will I have to subscribe to 5 different distribution sites? This is why I think consolidation is needed or at least some sort of cooperation. My idea is actually the perfect opportunity for any enterprenuers out there, if they can build a site something like youtube for anime, make it monthly subscription, and just make the anime companies fansub their anime, then liscence it from them as soon as it airs and put it out on the site. This will hurt the pirating, at the same time it creates one site that can liscence and distribute all the anime out there from hundreds of producers and gets them out to fans as fast as it airs on TV. It will not be downloadable, thus the initial companies still retain all profits from DVDs, etc., and it makes it cheaper to liscense when its only for viewing. Anime fans who still want to collect the DVD can do so and all profits go to the industry. There might be some flaws with this idea, but I just can't think of any at the moment, let me know what you think. |
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GrdAdmiral
Posts: 101 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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I hope this kinda makes sense. I just woke up, and have not had my caffeine yet. Here is my take on a few of the proposal:
The Account System I agree a library would be nice, and the best way to do it would be thru a free account system. How ever, this being a business, the most logical stand point would be to charge a monthly fee. How ever, you could adjust this model by offering multiple types of membership. Consumer 1 - Pays $10 a month to get 6 downloads, and the rest cost $2 a movie to download. If you don't use all 6 for the month, the rest get tacked on to the next month. So you only watch 3 this month, next month you get 9. You get roll over downloads. 
Consumer 2 - Pays $20 a month to get 12 downloads and the rest cost $2 a movie to download. Same plan applies as the one above. You could tailor the plans to meet that of the consumers. Personally $2 an episode is not expensive to me at all. That way the consumer paying has a choice how much usage to use. The Big Picture - Multi-Sate Release System Stage 1 - My personal opinion, but on average I'd say that a majority of the Anime fans can not fluently read or write Japanese. I don't believe that many fans would buy a RAW release that they could not understand. I could not fully understand a show just by an overall idea. Stage 2 - Quality of Translation is big in subtitled anime. "Plenty of ODEX examples to go on" How ever, most Anime fans tend to be very picky right down to the nitty gritty. I personally do not believe people would purchase a Bare-bones release. This is even evident in fansubs, as why you see version 2 and version 3 releases.
Stage 3 - This is where you will start to see purchases. I my self tend to enjoy Anime more in Japanese with accurate subtitles. Some shows, to much is lost in translation "Dub" and the culture is removed. This would be more like your RAW version. Stage 4 - Dubbed - The above being said, that is not true to say that I do not like dubs either. Some are done very well, and I also like to watch the show in my own language. Between stage 3 and 4, is where most of your sales would be.
How ever, most people are not going to want to buy multiple copies of the same product. I myself, hate buying a product I already own. Sometimes its unavoidable "Robotech" and "Macross", Evangalion and "Platinum Directors Cuts". It all boils down to this, faster releases of Stage 3 and Stage 4. Some shows are aired in Japan say 3 years ago, and are just now coming out on DvD. "Shuffle" is a good example, or better yet, "Case Closed" Detective Conan came out in 1995, and it started airing in 2003. It all boils down to this, today's generation of youth are very impatient. Today's culture is very fast paced, and its a go, go, go, environment. That's basically the bottom line on that one. DvD sales are more built towards people who don't want to watch their media on a computer screen. I much prefer to watch anime on my Panasonic 58" Flat Panel Plasma HDTV. (I need to get an LCD though, hooking my computers video card to the TV, it seems to like to burn the stupid windows bar into the bottom of the screen for some reason. This is a NO NO!) I don't for see physical media being phased out, it does play a large role in sales. (See my above post on why.) Renting Content This is actually a new concept thanks to the internet. I personally could never get Anime at Blockbuster back when I was a kid. And if they did have any, it was like ore or two major titles, and in limited copies. The selection was just non existent. With the introduction of net-flicks, the selection of Anime renting has basically tripled. I personally prefer to own over renting, but thats me. Discounted Re-Rents One mans trash is another mans treasure. I personally will never buy pre-owned anything. (minus cars - as the valve of a brand new car is not worth it.) This is more of my own personal choice though. I don't know how other people take care of the products. Back when I was in High School, I used to work for EB Games, and people would trade in PS1 games, and they would be all scratched to hell up. I like to keep my DvDs and games in good condition, complete with boxes and books.
Third Parties Middlemen tend to drive consumer prices up, as there are more people wanting a chuck of the pie. Hopefully I answered most of your questions. |
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