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MagicallyDelicious
 Posts: 157 |
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I think this was touched on (and maybe said), but I honestly didn't read through every single reply fully.
If a legit company (Viz, etc) released sub only versions of their episodes on DVD (perhaps with less of the pretty cover art and such), anything to save some money on production, and released a subtitled only version before the dubbed version (meaning, keeping as close as possible to the Japanese DVD releases), would anyone actually buy it? I'm not saying that they should stop releasing the dubbed DVDs because I know that, even if I don't want them, a lot of people do. But, I don't want to pay for the dub which I'll never watch. Two separate DVDs, dub and sub.. released at different times. But, I feel like... even if they wouldn't lose a profit in creating two different versions separately... I STILL don't think a lot of fans would buy it. A lot of people, myself included, say "Well.. if the official DVDs had this.... Id buy it..." but I don't know if I would, even if it did. I buy a lot of manga and merchandise (plushies, figurines, wall scrolls, etc) but not too many anime DVDs... the few I have are laking in a few things I really like about fansubs. I LOVE the effects used on attacks, and the karaoke stuff, and the translation notes that sometimes appear, and the honorifics being kept. I'm a little out of the loop on the quality of official DVD releases, but I can't say I've heard of any that are quite up to par (in this way) to fan subs. So, yeah. I really do wonder if it's at all plausible to release two separate DVDs. But, I some how don't think it would be. As long as fan subs exist. I sort of lost my train of thought here half way x.x I hope I stayed consistent in what I was talking about! ~MagicallyDelicious |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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The horrible answer is that, yes, quite a few of our sweaty, hairy palmed, basement dwelling, emotionally inadequate, socially awkward, 3D woman fearing, otaku co-hobbyists would jump at the opportunity. And then they'd go on the internet to tell everyone else how "awesome" the series was and show off their new Super Robot Loli Tentacle Harem Moe Love Love Time avatar. Sickening ain't it? 
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eviltimes
 Posts: 116 Location: Callisto |
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Which girl?
The Witchblade girl. She's built and she's an idiot. Perfect! 
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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I am a long time fansubber myself and have had dealings with the industry before.
The answer is not "yes or no" but rather, they have to either work with the fansubbers or adopt a business model closer to the fansub model if they are going to survive. This means licensing a show BEFORE it airs in Japan and releasing subtitled versions of it online within 0-2 days after it airs in Japan. This needs to be tied into a business model that drives revenue to the R1 companies and also the Japanese. And, with about 90% accuracy, by following certain channels and looking for buzz, you can predict which shows will be the most popular and which shows will not be popular before any given season of anime starts. Fansubbers have been doing this with very high accuracy for a decade now. Technically this is 100% feasible and the quality would be excellent. The thinking in Japan and the USA has to change for this to happen. People need to be willing to "take chances" which we know is unlikely to happen in Japan, a country where everything is decided by committee in regards to what will save them the most face. Otherwise, they can sit there and watch their revenue streams get sucked up by people subbing the latest and greatest shows before they are released officially in the US. Honestly, that's fine by me, if they are not willing to evolve. Of course, they should look to the experts in this regard (certain fansub groups) for the talent and expertise to implement this change, or they can try to recruit their own staff. It is my personal opinion that it would not be prudent to ignore fansubbers because look how well that has gotten you so far, R1 industry. Ignoring fansubbers over the past 8 years has cost you unknown tens of millions of dollars in revenue. I am not sure many industry CEOs realize that. The alternative option for this would be to start cherry picking (recruiting) out the most talented and productive staff from the fansub groups to become contractors for the industry. This would have a larger impact than a lot of people would think. (My estimates put about 90% of the english fansubs out there coming from maybe 100 people total). I know this because I have been heavily entrenched in the fansub scene for a decade now and have interacted with more than half of them, both online and in person. I wish someone in the R1 industry would listen to what we're saying sometimes, we understand this market better than they think. I'll tell you right now, if I was running a company I wouldn't have paid $70,000 per episode of Heat Guy J. Yet guys making brilliant business decisions like that are leading the industry to its grave. Lovely. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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There's an arrogance to your stance on this topic that's unsettling. "We the fansubbers know this business - that we don't and have not ever actually worked in, don't actually understand the realities of and have zero experience dealing with - better than the anime companies do, they should listen to us". So you hijack an entire industry by illegally offering the sum total of a country's animated product for free online and then you make demands of the companies producing the content? You do things entirely without consequence - completely outside of the business world, free of any sort of restraints that are put in place to protect the jobs and livelihoods of the people who work to produce said product - and then claim to have superior knowledge of how their business operates? They should listen to you, because your years of taking their content and giving it away for free to anyone who might show passing interest and owns a computer makes you some kind of seasoned expert on how to run a multi-million dollar industry? "Do exactly what we've done or perish", all from unrelated third party interlopers who were never invited to the table in the first place. I'm not sure what you do for a living, but imagine if you had to work under these circumstances. Imagine if what's happening to the anime industry were happening to any other business, where random strangers hijacked their product, reproduced it for free and then went into the company and made demands of the CEO. You probably wouldn't be super eager to work with those people who you never asked to screw with your product in the first place. I have to wonder if there's ever been a case like this before, where a company produces a product and the people who enjoy said product say "Wow we sure do love this stuff! We're going to completely and utterly undercut and destroy your business model!". At least in the music industry the artists have a chance to make a living with live performances. Last edited by Zac on Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Primus
 Posts: 2761 Location: Toronto |
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Thing is, companies have already done that, Media Blasters, the bullshit that Bandai Visual is putting out, etc. Those companies share your idea, but are carrying it out completely wrong(Media Blasters is trying to make it right, will explain later). The thing is to not get these releases to retail, Why? Because it's not good for the masses. I've never picked up a sub-only release, only because it makes the company that released it feel that they are doing something right, and more people want this, but that is wrong, and it is effectively downsizing potential fanbases by having one Language track, and one that the majority of countries, except Japan, don't speak. If you want sub-only DVD releases, companies need to implement a On Demand DVD production facility, or get HP to print disks for them, this is what Nelvana, Media Blasters, and ImaginAsian are doing. These are cheaper releases because they are not printed in bulk quantities, but instead are printed for each individual order, are only available on Websites, are usually bare-bones, therefore containing no extras, and usually come with a sleeve instead of a case. This way companies can release their Sub-Only stuff without flooding general retailers(Like HMV, Best Buy, Suncoast, and Future Shop) with sub-only releases, which turn off a majority of anime fans who aren't hardcore otaku. The hardcore otaku can go buy their niche shows in an even nicher release for cheaper on the web with faster release dates. But since On Demand Sub-Only DVDs should cut release times, once the first volume of the Bilinigual DVDs hit mass retailers, the On Demand DVDs should be cut off from production, why? It'll be months since the On Demand Stuff should've been finished, and it still keeps the regular bilingual releases compeititive. It's not perfect, but none of the options are. |
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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I guess I did come off a little arrogant, but it is frustrating being ignored when we want to help. You sort of missed my point, I suppose I should have clarified it better. I meant that they should work with fansubbers or get closer to the fansub model because, unless they do, fansubbers are NOT going away. I could quit tomorrow and things would continue just as normal. All popular destined-to-be-licensed shows will continue to subtitled, and people will still subtitle popular shows post-license. This is the status quo. This will not change. The industry has to accept that fact and come up with ways to deal with it. I suggested a couple of options. This is not an ideal situation but it's the REALITY of the situation. And yes, in many ways, I do feel I am better in touch with the fanbase than the R1 companies are. I've worked on fansubs that have the same number of viewers that Adult Swim gets on an average week. I've been doing this for ten years. I'm not saying we should take over the reigns and run the show. I'm saying, it's not prudent to ignore fansubbers and the fansub scene. There is a lot of good that can be taken from the fansub model and I'm waiting for more companies to begin doing that.
I already personally deal with close to $10 million USD in revenue on my personal accounts, I do have some experience running a "multi million dollar industry" in that regard. I also work in IT staffing, which has been hijacked by H1B companies (mostly Indians) and we've had to deal with this or die (and many American IT consulting firms have died). It's evolve or die, no different than the R1 industry. I quit my professional translation deals I had within the industry because it didn't pay enough to be worth my time. I find fansubbing more rewarding in that regard (for a number of reasons). -Tofu Last edited by Tofusensei on Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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krelyan
Posts: 173 Location: Utah |
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Honestly, what would be the purpose of working with the fansubbing community? To save on the ultimately, inconsequentially minor cost of translation? Some seem to think that the R1 companies would “sponsor” the fansub groups which is ludicrous.
Fansubs’ relationship with the industry has long since devolved from symbiotic to parasitic. It’s remarkable that many truly believe that the fansubbing model is a legitimate business approach that the R1 companies can feasibly compete with. How does one compete with free? Comparing the costs of server upkeep to the costs of licensing, dubbing (though this seems to be slowly dying off, sadly), authoring, product manufacturing, marketing, etc. it becomes apparent where the “problem” lies. Many claim that by providing this “competition” fansubs will reduce the price of R1 DVDs. However, if anything, they might be increasing it by artificially bloating the demand for the product and therefore driving the licensing costs up. Also, many hardcore fansubbers will state, if possible (which it seems to be conveniently not), they would gladly donate to the creator, which they claim the R1 companies don’t do. What about the hundreds of others involved in the project? The argument that the R1 companies should be expected to compete with the quick releases provided by the fansubbers, which often beat even the R2 releases, is inane. The Japanese licensors have repeatedly stated their concerns over reverse importation and does one honestly think they’ll license a show to a R1 company that will directly compete with their product (especially with the same region coding on BD)? If one wants closer to R2 release dates, one should expect to pay closer to R2 prices (easily two to three times the cost per episode of R1). If not higher prices, there would likely be other compromises that would not meet the fansubbers unrealistic expectations, such as using a subscription based renting model instead of actual ownership or a degradation in video quality. Did Viz not put out subbed downloads of Death Note while the show was still airing? How many actually purchased them? Also, this would require the R1 companies licensing the series often times very early during its broadcasting and is incredibly risky. Many fansubbers will always have an excuse for their actions and expecting that the R1 companies unrealistically “adapt” to their model is absolutely illogical and unreasonable. |
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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I agree that it is sad and not ideal. However, if they don't do something to compete with the loss of revenue due to the proliferation of fansubs both before and after licensing, they will watch their revenue streams continue to dry up. Can anyone actually refute that point? -Tofu |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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I'm going to challenge you on this. You don't want to help. This isn't about the anime, or the artist, or anything like that - this is about you. You're not "helping" the artist by taking his product, copying it a billion times, standing in front of his store and handing it to anyone who shows a passing interest. That copy you give them also gets copied a billion times and gets handed out to anyone that person encounters who shows a passing interest. You're not helping anyone at all, you're just making it incredibly difficult for the artist - and in this case, the hundreds of people who help bring that artist's project to life - to make a living practicing their craft. Many Japanese artists and companies - like Nabeshin, or Media Factory - have flat-out told you to stop taking their product and giving it away for free, but you give them the middle finger. They don't appreciate it. They don't want you to do what you're doing. None of the people making this stuff wants you to keep on doing what you're doing. But you keep going anyway, under some bizarre notion that you're helping "spread the word" or that the artist who created the show wants you personally to act as his agent. Nobody asked you to do this, and believe it or not, they're starting to hate you for it. No, it's not about the anime. It's about recognition for people who aren't involved in the creative process, people who were never asked to work with the material in the first place. The guys who just got snagged for uploading thousands of anime episodes to the internet straight-up said that they did it for "recognition and appreciation from the users". They wanted the "glory", the credit. They're inserting themselves into the creative process forcibly, effectively standing in front of the artist who's producing art and handing copies of it to anyone who shows interest, hoping to get recognition himself. It's a selfish act. Next time you go to an anime convention that has Japanese guests, I invite you to approach the director of a show you fansubbed and let him know that you subtitled it and uploaded it to the internet. Then come back to me and you tell me what his reaction was. I guarantee you he will not offer you a handshake or a hug. |
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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Zac, let's assume you are correct about me in what you said. (BTW, I work in a well respected group who drops shows when licensed or requested by the Japanese and subs mostly obscure titles anyway). But that is neither here nor there, let's assume you are correct about me. I realize the error of my ways and quit fansubbing tomorrow. What is going to change? Absolutely nothing. Whatever popular show I was translating will be picked up by another group and life goes on, more future DVD sales are lost. This happened when I dropped Wolf's Rain, this happened when I dropped Last Exile, this happened when I dropped Tsubasa Chronicle, this happened when I dropped Fruits Basket, this happened when I dropped... [insert a few dozen more titles]. The status quo will not change. Fansubbers are not disappearing. This is the sad reality of the situation. Since fansubbers will not voluntarily change what they are doing, the only people left who can alter the situation are the Japanese or the American R1 firms. The proverbial ball is in their court. Why shouldn't we be approached to assist the industry in helping them rectify this situation? I'm one of many fansubbers who wants to help because we do enjoy anime and enjoy anime being legally released in America. Either remove fansubbers from fansubbing groups (a less likely to be successful approach) or make fansubbing obsolete by competing with them on delivery and speed. Those are the two options. The third option is to continue to lose revenue. "But you keep going anyway, under some bizarre notion that you're helping "spread the word" or that the artist who created the show wants you personally to act as his agent. Nobody asked you to do this, and believe it or not, they're starting to hate you for it." Most fansubbers don't fansub to spread the word any more. We fansub because it's a hobby and a community. Most experienced fansubbers don't deny this fact. I certainly don't. It hasn't been about the anime for 10 years. Although I have to think when we subtitled Creamy Mami, Yawara, Galaxy Express 999, and other titles that were unlikely to see US releases, we were doing the world a favor rather than harm, but I digress. For the majority of fansubbed shows, it's about the scene and competition and having fun. I liken it to an MMORPG. -Tofu |
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Primus
Posts: 2761 Location: Toronto |
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I don't know, nor do I care, how many people actually downloaded the subbed Downloads. What I can tell you is that a lot more people would've downloaded it legally, had it not been for the fact, that Viz is incrediably naive, they chose a means of releasing the series(IGN's Direct 2 Drive), which restircts things from being downloaded from forgien, outside of the USA, IP addresses. Some said it was because of the license that Viz had, but why can ADV create Anime Network Online, and I can watch it, but I can't watch Viz's option? Because I'm Canadian? We live in the same DVD region, our releases are on the same day for goodness sakes, yet not even us can get the downloads(nor can International Viewers watch Toonami JetStream), that seems like the perfect option to combat fansubs, because clearly there are more Fansub viewers in the United States, than the rest of the world combined 
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purplepolecat
 Posts: 130 |
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Hi, first time poster here. I've been following the fansub debate that has been raging here for a few weeks, and I would like to contribute. Personally I always buy or rent DVDs, and choose to watch them subbed. My question is: how much harm can fansubbers actually do to the mainstream anime DVD market, given that the vast majority of anime watchers either have a strong preference for dubs, or will flat out refuse to watch subs ? I don't have any figures to back up this assertion, because no-one knows for sure what people do with their shiny legal R1 DVDs when they get them home, and no-one knows exactly how many people watch fansubs, but it seems very likely given that: a) anime companies spend a huge proportion of their budget for a series on dubbing b) anime companies hardly ever release sub-only DVDs, presumably because there is no market for it c) Dub actors are still treated as superstars at conventions So, I'm not saying that fansubs have zero impact on DVD sales, but when people hold them responsible for destroying an industry they are not being entirely honest. I can see how people (including Zac here) whose income depends on the R1 industry are more or less forced to speak out against fansubs, but hyperbole just undermines their arguments. If you want to point fingers, take a look at the "reputable" anime stores that stock cheap "import" DVDs with crappy Chinglish subs. It's so easy to buy one by mistake, you get stuck with an almost unwatchable DVD, and I bet the north american licensee won't see a penny of your cash. |
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Primus
Posts: 2761 Location: Toronto |
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Know what you should do if you're releasing "Unlikey to be licensed series", release only scripts, so that those who want to watch the show can import the Japanese DVDs, download the script, and manipulate the disc so that the subtitles can sync to the video, instead of releasing Subtitled video. I've seen this done before, with the Japaense DragonBall DragonBox releases, where many non-Japanese DragonBall fans purchased these sets, but it had no English subtitles, so they downloaded patches for it.This way the Japanese make their money, and no one loses. |
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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That is not a bad idea. I wonder if Yawara would have still been licensed if we were doing that, though. Does anyone know the story behind the scenes on that? I'd be curious to hear how the negotiations happened for that. -Tofu Last edited by Tofusensei on Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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