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skaly



Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 144
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:57 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Instead, find a way to correct our "wayward" behaviour. People will still download illegally until it is either too risky, or if there is a better alternative. A much better use of your brain, I think.

Simple, no?


I agree. It's always a mistake to appeal to someone's conscience. If people can steal, they will steal. The worst part is hearing all the excuses. Who do they think they are? POTUS?

But the beauty of all this illegal downloading is that it's a self-correcting system. Do it long enough, and there won't be anything more to download.
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Richard J.



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 3367
Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:59 am Reply with quote
Psycho 101 wrote:
I also, while loving the series, must agree that the Aoi character type, and Belldandy's too unfortunately, are on the low end of what I think a woman should be like. It's better then being a cheating floozy or manipulative $%^%$ but it's still nice to have a woman with a little something scientists call a spine.
Not to derail the thread even more with my pointless musings but I don't think that Aoi and Belldandy lack spines really. It's just, they are so perfectly compatible with and dedicated to their respective men that they seem spineless.

In Aoi's case, she's virtually one of Kaoru's limbs. She has opinions of her own but they are virtually identical to his and her desires are much the same. In the rare case Kaoru does something that she doesn't like, Aoi keeps it to herself for the most part because she wants him to be happy over herself. (Of course, that usually must leads to Kaoru feeling like a heel.) Basically, Aoi is a selfless person by nature who has chosen to devote themselves to another, not out of a sense of obligation or because she is incapable of doing otherwise but simply because she loves him that much.

In Belldandy's case, she does have a strong will of her own but Keiichi isn't exactly the type of person to cause it to come up seeing as how he mostly does things to make her happy. Belldandy is a character who doesn't take a critical approach to evaluating people but rather looks to their virtues. Since, to her, Keiichi's virtues greatly outweigh his faults, she fell in love with him. (Of course, his wish doesn't exactly hurt, since technically sticking around forever is her job.)

At the same time, Belldandy can and does get upset sometimes but since she is both an extremely powerful being capable of massive destruction if she ever really let loose and a person who only wants to do good and to find the good in others, she rarely seems to get upset. She's also quick to accept an explanation for apparent misconduct due, again, to her refusal to see the bad in people, especially people she trusts. You can see Belldandy's assertiveness on occasion, such as when she got Keiichi into that race and refused to admit even the slightest possibility that they could lose.

dtm42 wrote:
Instead, find a way to correct our "wayward" behaviour. People will still download illegally until it is either too risky, or if there is a better alternative. A much better use of your brain, I think.
The one problem with this way of thinking is there is nothing better than free and instant except being paid to download.

The more important thing, I think, is to do much the same as the Grey Ayres talk mentioned in the column. Explain the manifest benefits of not illegally downloading, the little things like benefiting the Japanese side of the industry since there are so many elitists who can't fathom the possibility than anyone on this side of the pond could possibly contribute anything meaningful to an anime. At the same time, the R1 market needs to have an expansion of the legal digital option. (Some people will never buy DVDs but they might buy downloads.)

Also, in terms of increasing risk, at the very least when a company sends out a C&D and someone doesn't comply, they should go after them. It's kind of hard to take people seriously if they never really follow through on their threats. (If someone threatens to beat you up but they've done it a dozen times before, you'll probably just laugh at them, right?)

To be honest, I think the Japanese need to take a vital step in addressing this problem. Namely, they need to either contract an R1 company to subtitle and release series as they are airing in Japan digitally or do it themselves. If there is a horde of people who want anime in this form, why not provide what they want? If done through an R1 company, this gives that company a way to evaluate the profitability of releasing that series over here with real numbers, not guess work. Plus, if an incentive is added that if you downloaded all the episodes legally you can get a certain amount of dollars off the DVDs, wouldn't this also possibly increase the overall sales? If nothing else, it connects the anime fan more directly with the official release from the very beginning.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 3144
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:27 am Reply with quote
Jumping in on the harem question for a moment, I feel like my tastes run contrary to most other lonely nerds out there, since nothing in that genre has ever remotely appealed to me at all. A bunch of spineless girls fawning over my every word and "competing" with each other in some vain attempt to win my affection? Gag. In the esteemed words of Mugen from Samurai Champloo, "I love a woman who can kick my ass." I'll take a Motoko Kusanagi or a Faye Valentine over a Belldandy every single day of the week.

(Note that the poster has never been in "the scene" in any sense and is not expecting to become romantically involved with anyone in the foreseeable future, much less some sort of idealized fantasy chick. Your results may vary.)
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OneHotAlchemist



Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 85
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:33 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
snipped

Richard and Skaly pretty much answered that for me.

Its free. I don't think anyone can come up with a way for a product you pay for to be more desirable than one which is exactly the same, for free.

Given than speedsubbers can get an episode out within a day of the raw release, I'd think the majority of those who would want it would simply wait the extra day and get it free, without paying $2.50.

Also, I could only see a streaming service as useable, since any sort of download would need to have DRM up the wazoo to prevent reimport and spreading over bittorrent.
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Steroid



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 329
Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:07 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Quote:
I almost wish the same forces against fansubs and file sharing were against freeware and personal Youtube videos also, on the grounds that they took money away from for-pay producers. Then they could go into the underground, but every sensible person would be on board. Like when the Science Fiction Writers Association sent a list of takedown notices to Scribd, and got some Creative Commons works on the list by mistake, the authors of those works raised holy hell, rightly so. If nothing else, I hope we can agree that someone has the right to give away a work they've created, and that if someone tries to stop them, it's right to go ahead and give it anyway by hidden means.


What does that have to do with anything? So because a few stories were wrongfully taken down, we should all jump on the piracy bandwagon, download series enmasse, and put the anime industry in Japan out of business? What sort of thinking is that?

No, I'm not saying that. But it would be nice, just once, to have everyone on board with a righteous consumer against an evil producer, for the right reasons. To what extreme do I need to take the example? If Microsoft tried to forcibly stop Linux distribution, would you be ok with 'pirating' it over Bit Torrent? (And not just because MS has lots of money)

OneHotAlchemist wrote:
You keep working. This is a simple fact of life. You need to work to buy things you want. There's no point where you buy enough anime regularly to say "Oh, I can download a few series, I buy enough."

I've said it many times. People are not entitled to anime. Just because I'm a fan of Dodge Vipers doesn't mean I can go to a dealership and steal one.

OK, what if I make enough to buy up every anime that comes out from now till the end of time, plus all the past ones? Would that be enough for you? Quite frankly, the money isn't even the issue anymore. I'll pay full DVD price just to shut you all up. But I don't want the damn DVD. I want the fansub. The knocked-up-in-a-basement, curses-in-the-subtitles, karaoke-OP-and-ed, xVid, H264, convert-and-burn-it-yourself fansub. I don't want to buy a DVD, I want to buy a RIGHT. At what point will you say, "You can watch this anime, and no one may stop you. If someone does, you can use any means necessary to watch your anime." For crying out loud, are you so against my enjoyment that you'll set up barriers forever? I WANT MY ANIME NOW! I want approval. I want every one of you standing in my defense should anything interfere. How? For the love of anything that is holy, HOW?
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14081
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:10 am Reply with quote
OneHotAlchemist wrote:
dtm42 wrote:
snipped

Richard and Skaly pretty much answered that for me.

Its free. I don't think anyone can come up with a way for a product you pay for to be more desirable than one which is exactly the same, for free.

Given than speedsubbers can get an episode out within a day of the raw release, I'd think the majority of those who would want it would simply wait the extra day and get it free, without paying $2.50.

Also, I could only see a streaming service as useable, since any sort of download would need to have DRM up the wazoo to prevent reimport and spreading over bittorrent.


Speed subbing?

I laugh at the thought. An official release could have the dub out an hour after the Japanese broadcast. I have already mentioned it in three (or was it four?) threads so far, so I am not too keen to explain it here. Needless to say, the Japanese manage to get the original voice track out at one episode per week. If the dub directors worked with them, then they could conceivably do the dub at the same rate, simultaneously.

$1.99 for a subbed episode is pricey.

$1.99 for a dubbed episode, released before the speed subbers, and you get the bargain of the century.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8150
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:20 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
OneHotAlchemist wrote:
dtm42 wrote:
snipped

Richard and Skaly pretty much answered that for me.

Its free. I don't think anyone can come up with a way for a product you pay for to be more desirable than one which is exactly the same, for free.

Given than speedsubbers can get an episode out within a day of the raw release, I'd think the majority of those who would want it would simply wait the extra day and get it free, without paying $2.50.

Also, I could only see a streaming service as useable, since any sort of download would need to have DRM up the wazoo to prevent reimport and spreading over bittorrent.


Speed subbing?

I laugh at the thought. An official release could have the dub out an hour after the Japanese broadcast. I have already mentioned it in three (or was it four?) threads so far, so I am not too keen to explain it here. Needless to say, the Japanese manage to get the original voice track out at one episode per week. If the dub directors worked with them, then they could conceivably do the dub at the same rate, simultaneously.

$1.99 for a subbed episode is pricey.

$1.99 for a dubbed episode, released before the speed subbers, and you get the bargain of the century.
However how many English VAs will want to live and work in Tokyo, on what they get paid in America, or on what the Japanese VAs get paid in Tokyo?
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OneHotAlchemist



Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 85
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:20 am Reply with quote
Steroid wrote:

No, I'm not saying that. But it would be nice, just once, to have everyone on board with a righteous consumer against an evil producer, for the right reasons. To what extreme do I need to take the example? If Microsoft tried to forcibly stop Linux distribution, would you be ok with 'pirating' it over Bit Torrent? (And not just because MS has lots of money)


Again, where is this "evil corportation that the righteous consumer needs to stand against" in the anime industry?

Quote:
OK, what if I make enough to buy up every anime that comes out from now till the end of time, plus all the past ones? Would that be enough for you? Quite frankly, the money isn't even the issue anymore. I'll pay full DVD price just to shut you all up. But I don't want the damn DVD. I want the fansub. The knocked-up-in-a-basement, curses-in-the-subtitles, karaoke-OP-and-ed, xVid, H264, convert-and-burn-it-yourself fansub. I don't want to buy a DVD, I want to buy a RIGHT. At what point will you say, "You can watch this anime, and no one may stop you. If someone does, you can use any means necessary to watch your anime." For crying out loud, are you so against my enjoyment that you'll set up barriers forever? I WANT MY ANIME NOW! I want approval. I want every one of you standing in my defense should anything interfere. How? For the love of anything that is holy, HOW?


And why do you want the fansub? I think I see what you're saying though, but then, the consumer has proven time and time again that it can't be trusted. I know kid who have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of anime on their hard-drives, and haven't bought a single DVD. Just because a single person uses fansubs and purchases everything they've watched, doesn't change the fact that the majority are watching entire series that they never intend to pay for. Everything would be peachy keen if people bought the DVD's in addition to watching fansubs (whatever quality they might be). This isn't the case. When you have 800,000 downloads for an episode of a series, and only 100,000 total sales, things begin to fall apart.

Furthermore, why do you feel you're entitled to anime right this very second, right now. There are so many released anime series available, why not watch some of those? Patience is a virtue.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8150
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:34 am Reply with quote
Steroid wrote:


OK, what if I make enough to buy up every anime that comes out from now till the end of time, plus all the past ones? Would that be enough for you? Quite frankly, the money isn't even the issue anymore. I'll pay full DVD price just to shut you all up. But I don't want the damn DVD. I want the fansub. The knocked-up-in-a-basement, curses-in-the-subtitles, karaoke-OP-and-ed, xVid, H264, convert-and-burn-it-yourself fansub. I don't want to buy a DVD, I want to buy a RIGHT. At what point will you say, "You can watch this anime, and no one may stop you. If someone does, you can use any means necessary to watch your anime." For crying out loud, are you so against my enjoyment that you'll set up barriers forever? I WANT MY ANIME NOW! I want approval. I want every one of you standing in my defense should anything interfere. How? For the love of anything that is holy, HOW?
When you pay the maker for that right. No one said that you have to buy every single DVD that comes out, but you don't have the right to freely view the content that would have been on that DVD without having paid for the privilege, unless the maker is nice enough to let you, but that is his right so to do, not yours to take regardless. Understand?
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OneHotAlchemist



Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 85
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:41 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
OneHotAlchemist wrote:
dtm42 wrote:
snipped

Richard and Skaly pretty much answered that for me.

Its free. I don't think anyone can come up with a way for a product you pay for to be more desirable than one which is exactly the same, for free.

Given than speedsubbers can get an episode out within a day of the raw release, I'd think the majority of those who would want it would simply wait the extra day and get it free, without paying $2.50.

Also, I could only see a streaming service as useable, since any sort of download would need to have DRM up the wazoo to prevent reimport and spreading over bittorrent.


Speed subbing?

I laugh at the thought. An official release could have the dub out an hour after the Japanese broadcast. I have already mentioned it in three (or was it four?) threads so far, so I am not too keen to explain it here. Needless to say, the Japanese manage to get the original voice track out at one episode per week. If the dub directors worked with them, then they could conceivably do the dub at the same rate, simultaneously.

$1.99 for a subbed episode is pricey.

$1.99 for a dubbed episode, released before the speed subbers, and you get the bargain of the century.


Why offer dubbed episodes online anyway? The people watching fansubs aren't usually the ones buying dubs in the first place.

Furthermore, scripts are quite often worked-on far in advance of the week that shooting starts, its not like a quality dub script, matching mouth flaps and the like, is done in a day.
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krelyan



Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Utah
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:46 am Reply with quote
To those that have stated as such, do you truly believe that digital distribution will the industry’s ubiquitous solution? Certainly it plays an important role in the future of all media, but I don’t believe it’s the “untapped potential gold mine” many claim it to be.

For instance, a few have pointed to the iTunes model to show that digital distribution can be successful. But in fact, there are complete anime series offered on iTunes and other similar formats (although limited at this time), but have any heard anything about this being the resounding success that its proponents have stated? Also, is there any data that supports the claims that iTunes has been so successful because it has drawn users away from illegal downloads? Or has this success come at the expense of the CD market by drawing from a portion of the physical media consumers? Now obviously, such a model would lure some from fansubs, DVD-rips, etc. but will it be enough to balance from the cannibalizing a degree of the industry’s DVD sales?

The other complaint leveled against the current model concerns the speed at which releases are made available. But by releasing subbed episodes right after broadcast, this would certainly mean less lucrative TV contracts, the bread and butter for the anime industry.

Now this is all moot if legal downloads are able to compensate for these assured losses. And that’s what I find doubtful. It’s relying on a user base that has had no qualms “stealing” and undermining the industry. So it should come as no shock why companies have been reluctant to embrace this idea so far. And no matter how complete a product is established to “compete” against fansubs, I fear the majority will always have some complaint in order to justify their actions. So in that regard, it’s up to the “leeches” as much as it is to the R1 companies and Japanese licensors, if this market disintegrates or not.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:49 am Reply with quote
Steroid wrote:

CCSYueh wrote:
The starving student line is bs. You don't have the right to have anime. If you can't afford it, do without. If I have enough money to go to a restaurant, I go. If I don't have the sapre cash this week, I don't order the food & then leave without paying because I don't have the money.


But at what point does it stop? Even if I work to get the money, I use it, and then run out. How much work do I have to do before you all say, OK, you don't have to do any more, take whatever you want. If there is no limit, then why should I listen to you at all and not just take what I want now?


If my daughter said this, I'd look at her & ask her if I could slap her.

When you somehow become independantly wealthy & no longer have to work a day in your life, find a sugardaddy/momma to pay all your bills for you, slave away & finally retire at whichever age you manage to retire at, or die.

WELCOME TO REALITY.
We all work day-in/day-out for our meagre pennies to be able to pay the bills to put a roof over our heads & be little cogs in the machinery of society.
There are a couple options I left out-the homeless lifestyle, but begging at intersections is technically working in it's way-you're standing/sitting there with your little cardboard sign "Will work for food" (We do have the creative "Even an ugly fat man needs food" in the Valley from time to time)
Theft. Of course that is what those on the side against fansubs see them as.

When you watch it on tv SOMEONE has paid for it to air on tv. If you buy or rent the dvds, YOU pay for it (because the rental company has bought the dvd). In both ways, money goes back to the creator so that more anime can be made.

How does downloading---Code Geass, say, last year--& deciding you hated it/it's the worst anime ever made so you are not going to waste your time to watch it on CN, much less buy the dvds send money back to the creators to make more anime?
So now they have less money to make new anime so I can see all the little downloaders whining "There's nothing good! I've watched everything & it all sucks!"


You are right.
There IS a dif between a fansubber putting up eps of something s/he hasn't paid anyone anything for & an artist (often these are newer/start-up, but you do get the exstablished from time to time making an artistic statement) of their own free will putting their work out to be enjoyed for free.
But you did say that was a "mistake" that the names ended up on the list, so mistakes do happen
I have always wondered where the "you" is in posting a Naruto ep on Youtube. "You" didn't make it. The same really goes for AMVs. If Band Booboo doens't like some kid putting their hit song "Life sucks so bad, I'm going to kill a possum" to random clips of Ichigo & Co, then it IS their song & their right to ask YouTube to remove it.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:04 pm Reply with quote
What's been ignored in this whole debate is how fansubbers are allowed to receive and transmit their raws and subbed output. Obviously their ISPs are allowing it to happen without any interferance. The UK ISPs are being pressured by government and the entertanment industries to shut down, or cut off people who do this and some are complying though at a very slow pace. At the moment there isn't any legislation that says these ISP will be held responsible for what their member customers do with their service, but that is being looked at by a few MPs with an eye to making a law that would hold them responsible. If that sort of thing happens through out the WWW it would eliminate a great deal of it, if not all of it.
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Steroid



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 329
Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:47 pm Reply with quote
OneHotAlchemist wrote:
Steroid wrote:

No, I'm not saying that. But it would be nice, just once, to have everyone on board with a righteous consumer against an evil producer, for the right reasons. To what extreme do I need to take the example? If Microsoft tried to forcibly stop Linux distribution, would you be ok with 'pirating' it over Bit Torrent? (And not just because MS has lots of money)


Again, where is this "evil corportation that the righteous consumer needs to stand against" in the anime industry?

Oh, I'm not saying it is, but my point is that if it ever comes up, it would be useful to know beforehand that people aren't going to say, "ooh, look at the leeches, downloading freeware instead of buying from the legitimate companies." If producer consent is the criterion, that's fine, but I want to make sure the goalposts aren't going to be moved.

Quote:
Quote:
OK, what if I make enough to buy up every anime that comes out from now till the end of time, plus all the past ones? Would that be enough for you? Quite frankly, the money isn't even the issue anymore. I'll pay full DVD price just to shut you all up. But I don't want the damn DVD. I want the fansub. The knocked-up-in-a-basement, curses-in-the-subtitles, karaoke-OP-and-ed, xVid, H264, convert-and-burn-it-yourself fansub. I don't want to buy a DVD, I want to buy a RIGHT. At what point will you say, "You can watch this anime, and no one may stop you. If someone does, you can use any means necessary to watch your anime." For crying out loud, are you so against my enjoyment that you'll set up barriers forever? I WANT MY ANIME NOW! I want approval. I want every one of you standing in my defense should anything interfere. How? For the love of anything that is holy, HOW?


And why do you want the fansub? I think I see what you're saying though, but then, the consumer has proven time and time again that it can't be trusted. I know kid who have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of anime on their hard-drives, and haven't bought a single DVD. Just because a single person uses fansubs and purchases everything they've watched, doesn't change the fact that the majority are watching entire series that they never intend to pay for. Everything would be peachy keen if people bought the DVD's in addition to watching fansubs (whatever quality they might be). This isn't the case. When you have 800,000 downloads for an episode of a series, and only 100,000 total sales, things begin to fall apart.

Furthermore, why do you feel you're entitled to anime right this very second, right now. There are so many released anime series available, why not watch some of those? Patience is a virtue.

It's not even about now, or the money, or any of that. It's about independence. All I want from the company, be it an R1 licenser or a Japanese studio, is the right to watch. Now, I could argue that since I'm cutting down their production costs, they should charge me less. I could argue that by cutting their variable-costs to 0, they should charge me 0, or at least charge me a flat fee. But set those aside for the moment. The point is that I don't want any of the packaging and trappings they put on it. I don't want the professional translator, I want the amateur. (Yes, we've said that's a matter of personal preference; I still want it) I don't want it on a disc. Discs get scratched, dirty, broken. I want each episode as an .avi or .mpg, where I can play them separately, where I can seek to a point in the episode without having to fast-forward and rewind. I don't want to get anime from a brick-and-mortar or a delivery service. I like seeing a download bar creep toward 100%, especially as I can tell it to dl episode 1 first, and work on the rest later.

In short, I don't want the guided tour. Just drop me off in country and let me walk around. I don't want AOL, just a dial-up. And I can do this, with the network of anime fans that exists. I just need the thumbs-up from the powers that be.

The problem, as I've said before, is that once they start getting point-of-sale money from me, they start marketing to me, and trying to tailor the shows to me. But that's the fast track to getting me to stop liking the shows. I don't want to be the target audience, I want to be the fly on the wall. I venture to say I've downloaded as much or more unlicensed anime as licensed. And dorama and variety shows that have no chance of coming over. And J-pop songs that wouldn't make it here. I love Japanese culture. I can't stand Japanese culture directed at Westerners.
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samuelp



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2079
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:43 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
What's been ignored in this whole debate is how fansubbers are allowed to receive and transmit their raws and subbed output. Obviously their ISPs are allowing it to happen without any interferance. The UK ISPs are being pressured by government and the entertanment industries to shut down, or cut off people who do this and some are complying though at a very slow pace. At the moment there isn't any legislation that says these ISP will be held responsible for what their member customers do with their service, but that is being looked at by a few MPs with an eye to making a law that would hold them responsible. If that sort of thing happens through out the WWW it would eliminate a great deal of it, if not all of it.

What you are asking is technologically impossible.

ISPs can detect peer 2 peer network traffic (even if encrypted) through bandwith shape matching and port scanning, but they have no recourse to, for instance, decrypt sftp transactions.

Most fansub groups use sftp for internal workings and file transfers, and we're talking about a generally sophisticated group of computer users who can readily get around whatever schemes ISPs might attempt to use to detect it.

The UK ISPs are being pressured to stop peer 2 peer networks sharing files, not individuals transferring single infringing files from one person to another.

Furthermore, shutting down the raw sharing japanese peer 2 peer networks is far more difficult than other networks. In the recent incarnations EVERYTHING is highly encrypted, and even the Japanese government doesn't seem willing or able to seriously attack it, let alone the UK government or ISPs.

The only way to shut down raws getting to fansubbers would be to cut Japan off from the internet completely. And even then we'd just get ex-pats like me to EMS DVDs overnight to people Smile.

Fansubbers don't usually seed torrents from their personal computers. They use distro servers located often in other countries than where they live, like canada, or denmark, or generally located in countries with laxer copyright laws. Distro used to be done through hacked university drones and other less scrupulous means, although that doesn't happen as much anymore from what I know. But most torrent seeding is done through full dedicated servers with direct internet connections and not through ISPs AT ALL. Most of these places have TOS's that would prevent that sort of thing but purposefully ignore it as they really just sell bandwith, and unlike large public ISPs you often pay per GB, so the more you use the better for the server provider.
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