Forum - View topicInterview With The Fansubber
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2231 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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More in the community than any actual fandubbing... I made a completely original drama CD for a doujin festival recently with members of the fandubbing crowd... Note, I only do sound mixing and directing and script production, no voice acting for me outside of a tiny cameo I gave myself. Actually, though, there is no "theoretical" reason why dubs could not also be produced within days and/or simultaneously to Japanese release. It would simply require the direct involvement of the R2 companies. If the anime dubbing VAs and producers were to be hired by the R2 companies and not the R1 distribution companies, then they could theoretically record lines nearly simultaneously with the Japanese seiyuus. If Toei animation decided that they wanted to produce their next giant shounen series "super magical fairy pirate island Z" in both japanese AND english, they could, simultaneously, by working very closely with a professional studio. With scripts sent out for translation, ADR could be done at the same rate (perhaps delayed a week) that it is done in Japan. Clearly, dubbing a show doesn't take more work than actually MAKING it in the first place, right? |
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Talon87
Posts: 89 |
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True, but ... The difference between theory and reality for insta-subs is not that stark a contrast. I feel the opposite way about insta-dubs. Why? Because I believe (perhaps incorrectly!) the following two things:
It seems like in show business in Japan, there are two kinds of people who just barely miss the mark for what we're looking for in an ideal English VA. One kind of person is "the American expat in Japan" who went to the Land of the Rising Sun because it was his dream and sometimes finds himself hosting Japanese game shows, partaking in J-dramas such as Nodame Cantabile, etc. However, these Americans are usually not very different from you and I; they are not actors by trade or schooling; they have only found themselves in show business because it came to them, not vice versa; and they really aren't that talented at acting even once they do the gig for several years. (There's a reason the Japanese continue to hire Japanese actors to play Western characters in both J-drama and anime and I think it has everything to do with a shortage of Westerners in Japan who can actually act!) The other kind of person is the domestic Japanese voice actor who claims to speak a little English and is given the opportunity to VA in English. This often has disastrous results, e.g. this season's unintentionally humorous Wolf & Spice ending theme song. I agree that in theory there's absolutely no reason why dubs couldn't be done in Japan and finalized before the airing of the Japanese-audio episode. It's just that I think there's a huge divide between theory and reality for voice acting in Japan, while the divide between theory and reality for written translations -- including subs -- is not nearly so large. To put things into perspective, people complain about our domestic (American) voice actors as is. My question to you would be, "Do you really think the Japanese could do any better?" They'd either (a) have to import actors from the USA (and that would be bad because they'd be importing the very actors so many fans already disdain) or (b) find their own actors in Japan (which is unrealistic because if you can't find 10 decent voice actors in a country of 300,000,000 English speakers, what makes you think you could find that many in a country with less than 30,000 American expatriots?). You could say, "Well, why not give the American voice actors the script in advance of the Japanese airdate so they can work with it and get their dub finalized before showtime?" But this would get back to what was mentioned earlier about all the legal redtape involved in localization. The only way to get the dub done instantaneously would be to record it in Japan, and I don't know that the studios would be willing to formally employ all of our American VAs and house them in Japan, nor do I think many of our VAs would want to make that kind of change in their lives. Voice acting is one thing; moving to Japan is quite another. |
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tygerchickchibi
 Posts: 1448 |
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You don't think that R2 work with the English VA's either? Actually, they do. I don't really know too much into detail, but for Anime like Bleach and Naruto, I know that they have been involved in some way or form. Then what's left of the R1, I wonder, I mean...with your idea, and all...
That actually gave me a thought about anime that were first released in English only. For example, when Armitage III was first released, it was only out in English audio/Japanese subs, before it was re-released in Japan with dual audio. A week to fully dub what, an episode? >.>;
I'm not actually convinced yet, really. You do make it sound simple and convenient, but it's way different if you put yourself in someone else's shoes. We won't really know unless we've actually done it ourselves, so I feel reluctant in agreeing with you. Perhaps if it were different, I would agree with you completely. I do hope you understand what I'm saying, though. EDIT - Talon got to me first, hehehe...it took me a while to reply back. EDIT 2 - Talon, for that link, I tried to catch what they were saying without reading the lyrics, I think I was only able to understand a few lines. In the end, I was completely lost. xD |
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Rin Tohsaka
Posts: 39 |
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Doesn't NewGen have offices in Shanghai? I remember seeing Kyle Hebert go to Shanghai to do dubs on his Youtube channel... |
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2231 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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First, I was never suggesting using only local Japanese talent, as I'm well aware that is insufficient. Second, as far as I'm concerned, the LEGAL barriers for getting scripts to dubbing studios early enough for a simultaneous release are essentially the same as the legal barriers getting the scripts early enough for a simultaneous subtitle release. So if you can imagine closing the gap for sub releases in some fashion, I think the gap could be closed for dubs too. The key all boils down to the same thing: licensing of anime, as it is done today, is an antiquated business practice that cannot keep up with the speed of the internet to disseminate multimedia. Either the solution is to speed up the licensing or prelicense shows in ways that don't expose the R1 companies to enormous financial risk, or to skip licensing entirely and have R1 companies work soley as production houses instead of full-fledged licensers, ala the Kadokawa route. Or just have all R1 companies go out of business and the Japanese produce everything themselves or through sub-companies like Bandai Visual. |
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Tank252ca
 Posts: 26 |
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I getting the feeling that some people are under the impression that anime production companies have these shows in the can well in advance of air dates. Contrary to the way that American shows are produced, anime TV series are typically completed only days before they air. That kind of an environment does not allow for the simultaneous production of foreign language dubs.
Besides, it simply would not be profitable to dub every anime made. So at which point do you decide that an anime is worth dubbing? If you don't have a magic crystal ball, how do you decide which anime deserves the expense of translation. hiring a casting agent, trying out new voice actors and scheduling additional sound studio time? And anime companies are supposed to spend all of that money before they even know whether the show will be popular? Licensing issues aside, it would take a very gutsy production company to commit that kind of money based solely upon a script and perhaps the reputation of a few key players. Even Hollywood, to my knowledge, with its billions of dollars does not produce shows in more than one language at a time. They are all dubbed later as interest warrants. How reasonable is it to expect anime companies to do otherwise? |
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Morcombe
Posts: 2 |
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ok let's see
1 - the American companies change characters names 2 - they change the original soundtrack 3 - they remove the concept of death, nudity and extreme violence i believe there's a term in baseball. 3 strikes and your out - we'll thats the companies 3 strikes and there's still more to come. 4 - some of the most popular shows liek dbz have never been released in other countries e.g the UK. So the internet is our only source for certain shows as we only have 1 anime channel and it's limited to 13 shows. 5 - they are simply to dear 20 pounds a dvd here in the uk, and some series have up to 10 dvd's. that totals 200 pounds, now who can pay that? 6 - when it comes to the manga side its the same viz remove nudity, excessive violence, swear words, one of the lamest things i ever saw was in naruto volume 24 when they changed the Drunken fist (a recognized martial arts technique) to potion punch! now I understand its underage drinking and thats frowned upon but it has ruiend the authors original work. 7 - like above due to the edits who wants to buy material that has been changed, it is simply an inferior product. 8 - companies like 4kids do not bring out uncut dvds like they should. 9 - they are simply to slow e.g Viz currently translate one piece at 1 volume every 3 or 4 months not only is all swearing removed but there are many content edits. now japan are at volume 47 while the us is at volume 17. if we wait for viz to catch up it will be around the year 2015 - that is simply too long a wait for me. so unless all these problems are fixed and believe me they never will be the anime companies will never win. Don't get me wrong I buy all the material available it's just extremely disappointing that viz released edited manga and that they are so extremely slow. many shows such as dbz and shaman king have never been released here in the uk thus the internet is our only way of getting to see them. But i am personally sick of wasting my money buying edited material when the releases from fansubs and scanlation groups are uncut. Last edited by Morcombe on Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2231 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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I'm well aware of the tight schedules that anime production companies work under, but it's not like an episode is made in 1 week... The production cycle is months for each episode, OVERLAPPING. So while the animation might just barely be finished by the deadline the scripts, etc, have already been finalized probably 2-3 weeks before hand, and recording is often done a bit earlier, sometimes even without finalized animation. As long as the final script gets to the dubbing studio the same time as it gets to the recording studio in Japan, then the US companies have the same amount of time to make the dub as the Japanese do to get it on TV. (Perhaps the real issue is that US dubbing studios tend to be less efficient than Japanese dubbing studios. Non-dedicated actors with complex schedules is quite a problem. That's why funimation and ADV with dedicated groups can produce dubs much quicker and at less cost than studios like Bang Zoom.) Basically, it's up to the R2 companies to decide. Do they want the show to possibly air on US television? Then pony up the money and/or sign a TV deal the same time they sign one with a Japanese station. Otherwise, no, a dub probably won't get made. That's the future I foresee. I just don't see how dubbing anything less popular than Haruhi makes a profit when DVD sales will continue to shrink the way they seem inevitably to be going. I mean, think of it this way: If a website offers both subbed and dubbed pay-per downloads, with the dubbed download $2 and the subbed $1, what percentage would buy the dubbed? Would it be enough to pay for the cost ($10,000 an episode would mean they'd need 10,000 people to purchase the dubbed download over the subbed one). I'm not sure that's realistic in this market. Last edited by samuelp on Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Turkishproverb
Posts: 43 Location: Pergatorio. |
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There is a simple solution to this. They sub in the script ahead of time release model, and release dubs based on successful sales/ hits etc. |
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tygerchickchibi
Posts: 1448 |
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1) I don't really know where you have been, but they really haven't changed names in ages. 2) You must still be watching 4Kids. DVDs are uncut, bilingual, and keep the original music and names as well, and have been for the longest time. DragonBall IMO, had better music in the English version than the original Japanese version. It's uncut in dual audio, and fans equally complain that the music sucks. So that just leaves you to one strike, dude. The only thing I do agree with is that I do wish they didn't edit the manga as much, with the artwork and all, and personally, though I'm not too crazy about it, I wonder what brings Viz paranoia to edit things like that...just to be politically correct. I swear, the uber gheyness of the USA is terribly astounding. Though I find Potion Punch to be quite funny, I prefer the Loopy Fist in the English Dub better. I'm sure they kept the "Drunken Fist" in the UNCUT DVD. Oh next to that, you might consider, some Japanese companies don't want the US to use certain references in their work. Not the R1 companies fault, really. Okay, so you live in the UK, so do you purchase the US products? |
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Morcombe
Posts: 2 |
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I purchase the manga from places like amazon so yes i do get manga from the US
but dvds are limited to what's available in stores. We get a lot of anime but like i said it's simply costs far too much for me to afford |
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2231 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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Let me expound a bit:
This is the 21st century. I see no reason why cross ocean collaboration can't be far more efficient than it is today. Toei animtion, for example, produces its shows like One Piece in 3 separate animation studios in france, the phillipeans, and in Japan. and manages to coordinate everything. US dubbing studios wouldn't need perfect quality video masters, a high-bitrate mpeg would be fine for dubbing purposes... A 10 Mbit internet link across the ocean is perfectly affordable (hell, I have one in my apartment that's 100 Mbit, technically  ) and you can transfer audio losslessly, letting the Japanese engineers do the final mixing right after they finish with the Japanese one.
These sorts of collaborations can happen without undo burden to the production schedule for the Japanese studios (maybe not the really small ones, but for the major ones it shouldn't be a big problem). It's simply a matter of money and of whether it would be worth it all, but frankly "they're too busy" rings as a hollow excuse for "they don't think it's worth it". It might NOT be worth it, but it's not simply from lack of time that they don't try such a thing. |
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Stretch2424
 Posts: 166 |
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This was a fascinating interview which motivated me to register and comment here at ANN for the first time. I found it a bit disturbing at first, as I got the implication that fansubbers were praise-addicted weirdoes, but with the benefit of afterthought that seems like rather an exaggeration. Also disturbing was the implication that there's a radical change on the horizon for fansubs, the R1 anime industry, and otaku like myself.
I have gotten into anime to the point that I hardy watch any American made TV anymore. What I watch are mainly fansubs of shows currently running in Japan. I realise that anime has got to be profitable in order to be made in the first place, and would like to contribute, but R1 DVDs at premium price are simply out of the question for me. The vast majority of the episodes I watch are viewed once then dispensed with--not exactly worth ten dollars! I do subscribe to a rent-DVDs-by-mail service, so at least a little of my money finds it's way into the anime industry. I could be completely wrong, but my impression of the state of the American anime industry goes something like this: the license fees which the Japanese were demanding jumped tenfold around the year 2000, which placed the industry in a damned-if-they-do-and-damned-if-they-don't situation: Buy the rights to anime ASAP, which would mean paying exhorbitant fees, or wait until the prices come down, which means many viewers have already seen the shows on fansubs. I remember a leader of ADV commenting that the only anime Americans buy nowadays are their absolute favorites--they download everything else. I also remember reading an interesting comment that what's unusual about the beginnings of anime fandom in America is that for once it wasn't an industry which created a product and marketed it to the people, it was the people who recognized a foreign product they wanted and went after it by themselves. The original purpose of fansubs was to make anime available since the entertainment industry wasn't doing so. Nowadays, it's purpose has become to make it free and quick, since again the industry doesn't--or, more fairly, can't--do so. If the technology exists so that mere amateurs can create a product that's comparable to a highly expensive one, wouldn't you think they'd do so? How is the industry supposed to compete? I fear they are becoming an unneccessary middleman, since the one major service they serve (other than keeping things legal) is to provide dubs. But reading subtitles is a small sacrifice in exchange for getting anime almost immediately and for free. Perhaps the Japanese industry expects to squeeze as much money as possible out of the American one, then, when it folds up, start producing and selling their own fansub-like anime. But if that were the case, would Americans be willing to pay for them? One thing's for sure: arguing about ethics won't do any good, since the only laws which apply on the internet are laws like supply and demand. |
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Farla-hime
 Posts: 16 Location: Your local traffic light lane divide. |
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I'm sorry but I just had to say this post knocked me outta my chair. Squeee! 
And someone asked about timelines for licensing deals: I'd like to testify that one deal I know of specifically took 4 months of negotiations between the licensor and the competing licensees. I have been told by industry folks that generally in deals with Japanese companies, not only anime ones mind you, several months is the norm (although this is changing/has changed in some areas in recent years). Re; Stretch2424 -- I don't think the J companies would cut out the US distributor altogether and subtitle then self-distribute.... mostly because of the [EDIT: I'm removing this reference because I can't for the life of me remember where I read this, I believe it was done at a single anime con in '96, so it doesn't really matter as an argument since sites like EX have done their own surveys where subs won over dubs and yada yada]. Also, if the Japanese companies can get past their "easy rider" style of negotiations, and if the new conventions regarding Japanese Copyright law go through (I believe it's s'post to be this year?), the process might be able to speed up enough to compete with fansubs. So can the US industry hold out that long? Last edited by Farla-hime on Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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zayl
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I understand the need to support our favorite shows by purchasing them once they become licensed, but I feel as though companies are not taking into account a factor that is crucial in this scenario - QUALITY. I've been watching anime for about 8-9 years now, and throughout this time, I can say with no doubt in my mind that the work of fansubbers has virtually always been superior to the DVD sub. A lot of sub groups really put their hearts into their work and spend a great deal of time trying to make it as close to perfect as possible. In many shows, there are references to aspects of Japanese culture that most viewers are completely ignorant about. In these situations, it is not uncommon for fansubbing groups to insert a brief comment educating the viewer about this cultural note. I've rarely seen such care in the subs of licensed DVDs.
I used to support my favorite shows by buying the DVDs, but I stopped a few years ago when I realized that it wasn't worth my money. Aside from buying licensed shows simply to show your support, the only other reasons to purchase them are: the English dub, enhanced picture quality, and the DVD extras. The English dubs for most shows are simply terrible. Only a few companies have voice actors as talented as the Japanese ones (Funimation for example). The picture quality of the DVD versions can be matched using certain coding. The DVD extras are often lacking or non-existent. Until companies enhance these areas, I see no point in buying their DVDs. Companies speak so adamantly about the business side to anime, and yet they don't understand this one simple economic idea. No one in their right mind is going to pay for a product of inferior quality when they can get a better version of that product for free. |
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