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NEWS: Japan's Foreign Ministry: Jojo's Issue is Regrettable


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Gingy



Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 57
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:28 pm Reply with quote
I dont get it. Is it a sin(for Islam) to portray a book of their in entertainment of media? Or was something really evil done or associated witht he book? Was the book burned or something? Or is it just over reacting muslims with nothing better to do?
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Dargonxtc



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4463
Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:01 pm Reply with quote
Hegemonic wrote:
Calling him a "Sheikh", will not make him any more right either,

I assume you are directing this at me.

And your missing the point big time.
I am not calling him a "Sheikh". He is a Sheikh. I am not sure if you understand what that term means. Ward Churchill is a kooky professor. But if Ward Churchill made a call to violence for some cause, no one would do anything, and no one would listen. He has no power. Now if Sheikh Abdul Hamid Al-Atrash, who is also a kooky professor, made a call to violence for some cause, thousands would answer, and it would not be an unreasonable assumption that literally heads would roll. He has power. Thousands if not more, adore his words (as well as follow them), and he is held up as a model of the ideal Muslim to many of his followers.

My point was, which should be clear as day now, is that it would be incorrect to marginalize this man. I am not saying he is not a kook, that he is right, or any of the like. In fact I think he is a kook and that he is wrong.

I thought I could make a point without having to clearly define what "side" I am on by calling people names on ANN. Clearly I was wrong. Rolling Eyes
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Hegemonic



Joined: 08 May 2008
Posts: 23
Location: Waltham, MA
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:15 pm Reply with quote
Ah, well sorry for forcing you into such a position, but I didn't miss the point, frankly that's pretty much semantics the whole "calling" and "being" a Sheikh in this instance. I didn't miss the point, I did say he was of consequence and rightfully so, then I was in agreement with you. Again sorry for bringing you down to my level. Smile Friends?...
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JohnathanEnder



Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 86
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:34 pm Reply with quote
minakichan wrote:
Although I honestly believe that they ethically have nothing to apologize for, they handled it very gracefully and I hope that those who were offended will accept it.


If I accidentally offended you -- be it out of ignorance or malice (and I doubt this incident was conducted in malice) -- I would still apologize to you, because that's what decent human beings do.

That being said, I was never offended by this whole mess. But I accept their apologies.

mrsatan wrote:
One of the Muslim posters (that denounced this hysteria) here said he actually wanted to see more (heroic) Muslim characters.
I guarantee you, that is not going to happen now. Manga publisher are going to stay as far away from Islam or Middle Eastern settings as possible from now on.


Oh! That was me! Thanks for remembering. Anime smile

I hope that the latter part does not become the case. I hope that some manga artists figure that they can make a Muslim character for once who isn't a raving, bearded, dark-skinned, villain.

In the mean time though, I guess I'll just have to settle with Gundam 00's main character. -_-;

mrsatan wrote:
Yesterday I urged Muslim anime fans to try to educate this ignorant Muslims on what really happened and not to listen to the words of that kooky professor that started this mess.


Good for you. But I think most of us are smart enough to figure that out on our own, without being corralled. Thanks. Anime smile

But it's funny, I showed this article to a bunch of other Muslim anime fans I know, and they pretty much agreed: the professor was too narrow-minded to realize it's not something to get worked up about, and the animators were just a little bit too ignorant for their own good.

gingy wrote:
I don't get it. Is it a sin(for Islam) to portray a book of their in entertainment of media? Or was something really evil done or associated witht he book? Was the book burned or something? Or is it just over reacting muslims with nothing better to do?


It's not a sin to show the Qur'an, per se. But the scene shows the main villain, reading the Qur'an, and announcing his intent to kill the good guys. Which -- for the uninformed fools -- can be misconstrued as him being "inspired" by the Qur'an to kill.

Listen, with the way Muslims are shown in the popular media nowadays (name the last time you've seen a good Muslim who is not a rampant stereotype), it's easy to see why these people would get upset about this.

I mean, how often do you see a character in ANY show, movie, book, whatever, reading the Qur'an and actually reciting some incite, clarity, or enlightenment?

The Xenos wrote:
Okay, Japan. Where's my apology for all the anime and manga that totally missuses Christian imagery. Where's my apology for Hellsing? It shows Catholics and Protestants to be violent wack jobs. What about Trigun where the cross is used as a bazooka. I don't want to even think of Evangelion.


But you're forgetting one thing: all that stuff at least looked cool. Anime smile

Although I do not think it's anymore right or wrong -- if you've noticed, during this whole mess I haven't been favoring one side over the other -- there is more of an understanding with Christian symbolism then there is with anything regarding Islam because...well, people tend to know more about Christianity. Even when they're not Christians.

Again, I'm a Muslim, and I can recite the Our Father; purely because it has been in the media more times than I can count. When you see it enough times and show an understanding of the material then I guess it becomes "acceptable", for whatever that's worth.

Islam poses an interesting dilemma because, let's face it, how many of you know enough about the religion? Like, know as much about it as non-Christians know about Christianity?

Think about that. Personally, I'd love to see more people out there know more about Islam.

But it becomes hard to teach when no one listens.


INTERESTING ANIME/RELIGION/CONTROVERSY NOTE:


Anybody remember a few years ago, when they made that Captain Herlock series: Endless Odyssey?

It was supposed to be a series for broadcast, but when Leiji Matusomoto found out that a weapon was used in the show that resembled the Jewish Star of David, the show was cancelled BEFORE it even aired. The offending scenes were re-drawn, and the show was pushed into the OVA brine; in spite of the scene being cut out. It didn't even get a second chance on TV.

To refresh your memories: animenewsnetwork.com/news/2002-06-24/captain-harlock-endless-odyssey-cancelation-explained
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Hegemonic



Joined: 08 May 2008
Posts: 23
Location: Waltham, MA
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 8:19 pm Reply with quote
Well, we'll see incidents like this in the future too...but here's hoping not too many...or dangerous. ^^

I still remember how Iran reacted to the movie "300". Oddly enough Xerxes wasn't Muslim...*shrug*...but I guess I don't know what to make of that.
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Gingy



Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 57
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:06 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Listen, with the way Muslims are shown in the popular media nowadays (name the last time you've seen a good Muslim who is not a rampant stereotype), it's easy to see why these people would get upset about this.


Someone mentioned this already, but what about that episode in South Park that showed Mohammed? That episode about the Super Best Friends portrayed him as a super hero. Ummm, one of Aliens in America's protagonist is a muslim I think. Oh what about Scar from FMA? He is Ishballan, but watching the entire series and seeing how they react to new things, as well as how they are treated, their appearances, and all, I think it is pretty safe to say Ishballans in FMA is their world's equivalent of Islams. Of course whether Scar is a villain, anti hero,or anti villain is kind of hard to say. Since most people tend to disagree with me whether characters are heroes or villains. But lately, especially due to recent events, Islam HAVE been seen in a negative light, and while not trying to sound rude, they do over react way too extremely. Read the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy in wikipedia or just type it in on google. It even got parodied in an episode in South park.
Not that I have any thing against them. But I think it is mostly because of THAT controversy, and the current war in Iraq, then you will rarely ever see any characters that is Islamic.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 7:10 am Reply with quote
JohnathanEnder wrote:

mrsatan wrote:
One of the Muslim posters (that denounced this hysteria) here said he actually wanted to see more (heroic) Muslim characters.
I guarantee you, that is not going to happen now. Manga publisher are going to stay as far away from Islam or Middle Eastern settings as possible from now on.


Oh! That was me! Thanks for remembering. Anime smile

I hope that the latter part does not become the case. I hope that some manga artists figure that they can make a Muslim character for once who isn't a raving, bearded, dark-skinned, villain.
I point you to "Yugo the Negotiator". With all due respect, it is unfortunate that more of such figures aren't more prevelant in the real world. Don't get me wrong, I know there are plenty, but just how many have we seen in the world proclaiming opposition to these "authorities" with the power to licence assasinations with the proclaimation of a fatwa on who ever that "authority" deems a "satan" because he, or she wrote, or depicted, something the slightest bit offensive? Does Salman Rushdie ring any bells? Dutch cartoonist anyone? Those people are mostly afraid of their own lives if they did.

Quote:
mrsatan wrote:
Yesterday I urged Muslim anime fans to try to educate this ignorant Muslims on what really happened and not to listen to the words of that kooky professor that started this mess.


Good for you. But I think most of us are smart enough to figure that out on our own, without being corralled. Thanks. Anime smile

But it's funny, I showed this article to a bunch of other Muslim anime fans I know, and they pretty much agreed: the professor was too narrow-minded to realize it's not something to get worked up about, and the animators were just a little bit too ignorant for their own good.
But again how many of you are willing to openly speak out and be identified as disagreeing with his stance? I mean it's alright to say these things on an anime forum on the internet being mostly unidentified, but will any of you talk this way after Friday prayers?

Quote:
Quote:
[quote="gingy"]I don't get it. Is it a sin(for Islam) to portray a book of their in entertainment of media? Or was something really evil done or associated witht he book? Was the book burned or something? Or is it just over reacting muslims with nothing better to do?


It's not a sin to show the Qur'an, per se. But the scene shows the main villain, reading the Qur'an, and announcing his intent to kill the good guys. Which -- for the uninformed fools -- can be misconstrued as him being "inspired" by the Qur'an to kill.
And we all know there isn't anyone in the real world like that don't we? Wink

Quote:
Listen, with the way Muslims are shown in the popular media nowadays (name the last time you've seen a good Muslim who is not a rampant stereotype), it's easy to see why these people would get upset about this.
That's a bit much to ask when your talking about a man who is the "chairman of the Fatwa Committee" who is acting like "a rampant sterotype", you expect the worlds media to say otherwise? Rolling Eyes

Quote:
I mean, how often do you see a character in ANY show, movie, book, whatever, reading the Qur'an and actually reciting some incite, clarity, or enlightenment?
Again I point you to "Yugo", but who would want to if they end up on the fatwa hit list for getting it slightly wrong?

Quote:
The Xenos wrote:
Okay, Japan. Where's my apology for all the anime and manga that totally missuses Christian imagery. Where's my apology for Hellsing? It shows Catholics and Protestants to be violent wack jobs. What about Trigun where the cross is used as a bazooka. I don't want to even think of Evangelion.


But you're forgetting one thing: all that stuff at least looked cool. Anime smile
Okay so if a mangaka depicted an imam pointing the Qur'an at a villain where a death ray radiates from it's pages and kills that villain, that would be accepted as "cool" by the good "prof", and he'd say "yeah! that's what I'm taking about!"? Wink

Quote:
Although I do not think it's anymore right or wrong -- if you've noticed, during this whole mess I haven't been favoring one side over the other -- there is more of an understanding with Christian symbolism then there is with anything regarding Islam because...well, people tend to know more about Christianity. Even when they're not Christians.

Again, I'm a Muslim, and I can recite the Our Father; purely because it has been in the media more times than I can count. When you see it enough times and show an understanding of the material then I guess it becomes "acceptable", for whatever that's worth.

Islam poses an interesting dilemma because, let's face it, how many of you know enough about the religion? Like, know as much about it as non-Christians know about Christianity?
Only by what we openly see. which is also unfortunate.

Quote:
Think about that. Personally, I'd love to see more people out there know more about Islam.

But it becomes hard to teach when no one listens.
Then speak louder than the the good "Prof" because he's the one the world heard say these things.
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JohnathanEnder



Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 86
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:28 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
I point you to "Yugo the Negotiator". With all due respect, it is unfortunate that more of such figures aren't more prevelant in the real world. Don't get me wrong, I know there are plenty, but just how many have we seen in the world proclaiming opposition to these "authorities" with the power to licence assasinations with the proclaimation of a fatwa on who ever that "authority" deems a "satan" because he, or she wrote, or depicted, something the slightest bit offensive? Does Salman Rushdie ring any bells? Dutch cartoonist anyone? Those people are mostly afraid of their own lives if they did.


Oh, I liked Yugo. Definitely an under-appreciated series. Anime smile

You'd be surprised as to how many people speak out against this. But as I stated before, no one ever reports on them.

Did you know that a few months ago in Turkey, there was summit with representatives from Middle-Eastern countries where they discussed denouncing terrorism and agreed to spreading Islam as peaceful and understanding?

Of course not. Very few media outlets reported on it. CNN for one never even mentioned it.

Mohawk52 wrote:
But again how many of you are willing to openly speak out and be identified as disagreeing with his stance? I mean it's alright to say these things on an anime forum on the internet being mostly unidentified, but will any of you talk this way after Friday prayers?


Quite a lot, actually. Many young Muslims, in fact, take positions against stupid accusations like this.

Mohawk52 wrote:
And we all know there isn't anyone in the real world like that don't we? Wink


Objection, your honor. Relevance? Rolling Eyes

Mohawk52 wrote:
That's a bit much to ask when your talking about a man who is the "chairman of the Fatwa Committee" who is acting like "a rampant sterotype", you expect the worlds media to say otherwise? Rolling Eyes


Oh, so we're not supposed to see past stereotypes due to the actions of one, tiny man? I guess it's silly of me to think that there are intelligent people who can see past that. Confused

Mohawk52 wrote:
Again I point you to "Yugo", but who would want to if they end up on the fatwa hit list for getting it slightly wrong?


...what!?!?

Mohawk52 wrote:
Okay so if a mangaka depicted an imam pointing the Qur'an at a villain where a death ray radiates from it's pages and kills that villain, that would be accepted as "cool" by the good "prof", and he'd say "yeah! that's what I'm taking about!"? Wink


Nah, but it WOULD be cool if you had an Imam with sunglasses walk through a desert planet with a giant crescent on his back covered in a tarp. And when he pulled off the tarp, the giant crescent would turn into a HUGE boomerang that deflected bullets.

(Wow, can't even say a joke. And who said this Professor was "good"?)

Mohawk52 wrote:
Only by what we openly see. which is also unfortunate.


So you're saying that you've never seen a nice person who also happened to be a Muslim in your entire life?

Kinda condescending.

Mohawk52 wrote:
Then speak louder than the the good "Prof" because he's the one the world heard say these things.


Ahem. As stated before...

JohnathanEnder wrote:
Think about that. Personally, I'd love to see more people out there know more about Islam.

But it becomes hard to teach when no one listens.


Thank you for proving a point. Anime smile
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:33 pm Reply with quote
I see sales for the anime and manga skyrocketing both in Japan and in the United States. What is the Muslim nation going to do that would make Japan have to apologize over this? Fly planes into Tokyo Tower? Or the Diet? This is way too ridiculous to even think about. Like I said in the other thread, the Muslim nation is really the only one that gets to bitch and have it their way when they get offended.
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Telemachus_Sneezed



Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:21 pm Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
On a different note, I wonder how Persepolis is doing?


http://www.abc.net.au/arts/news/artsnews_2164534.htm
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 3:57 pm Reply with quote
JohnathanEnder wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
I point you to "Yugo the Negotiator". With all due respect, it is unfortunate that more of such figures aren't more prevelant in the real world. Don't get me wrong, I know there are plenty, but just how many have we seen in the world proclaiming opposition to these "authorities" with the power to licence assasinations with the proclaimation of a fatwa on who ever that "authority" deems a "satan" because he, or she wrote, or depicted, something the slightest bit offensive? Does Salman Rushdie ring any bells? Dutch cartoonist anyone? Those people are mostly afraid of their own lives if they did.


Oh, I liked Yugo. Definitely an under-appreciated series. Anime smile

You'd be surprised as to how many people speak out against this. But as I stated before, no one ever reports on them.

Did you know that a few months ago in Turkey, there was summit with representatives from Middle-Eastern countries where they discussed denouncing terrorism and agreed to spreading Islam as peaceful and understanding?

Of course not. Very few media outlets reported on it. CNN for one never even mentioned it.

Mohawk52 wrote:
But again how many of you are willing to openly speak out and be identified as disagreeing with his stance? I mean it's alright to say these things on an anime forum on the internet being mostly unidentified, but will any of you talk this way after Friday prayers?


Quite a lot, actually. Many young Muslims, in fact, take positions against stupid accusations like this.
You obviously Don't live in the Middle East then.

Quote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
And we all know there isn't anyone in the real world like that don't we? Wink


Objection, your honor. Relevance? Rolling Eyes
Now who's not listening? Wink

Quote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
That's a bit much to ask when your talking about a man who is the "chairman of the Fatwa Committee" who is acting like "a rampant sterotype", you expect the worlds media to say otherwise? Rolling Eyes


Oh, so we're not supposed to see past stereotypes due to the actions of one, tiny man? I guess it's silly of me to think that there are intelligent people who can see past that. Confused
I'd like to see you say that in his presents in the same room. Wink Whats a fatwa again? Are you saying that this "fatwa committee" is just a toothless tiger with no influence in the Islamic world, and that if he ordered a fatwa against the Japanese mangaka and publisher, no Islamist extremist would take notice? If that is what you believe to be true, than what's all the fuss about then?

Quote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
Okay so if a mangaka depicted an imam pointing the Qur'an at a villain where a death ray radiates from it's pages and kills that villain, that would be accepted as "cool" by the good "prof", and he'd say "yeah! that's what I'm taking about!"? Wink


Nah, but it WOULD be cool if you had an Imam with sunglasses walk through a desert planet with a giant crescent on his back covered in a tarp. And when he pulled off the tarp, the giant crescent would turn into a HUGE boomerang that deflected bullets.
Now that I'd like to see Smile

Quote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
Only by what we openly see. which is also unfortunate.


So you're saying that you've never seen a nice person who also happened to be a Muslim in your entire life?

Kinda condescending.
I work with a few muslims and they have said in private conversation that they wish the extremists would just Foxtrot Oscar, but here in the UK the muslim community has been at strains to come out and denounce the 7/7 bombers and the attack at Glasgow airport, and any of the extremist imams who have been openly preaching hate and jihad. What the more civil imams have said has been vague and low keyed. Why do you think that is then?
Quote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
Then speak louder than the the (not so) good "Prof" because he's the one the world heard say these things.


Ahem. As stated before...

JohnathanEnder wrote:
Think about that. Personally, I'd love to see more people out there know more about Islam.

But it becomes hard to teach when no one listens.


Thank you for proving a point. Anime smile
Likewise. Wink
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JohnathanEnder



Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 86
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:20 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 you have made your points, and I respect any and all of your opinions. Anime smile

I enjoy my life as a Muslim and I enjoy my life as an anime fan. Both are very peaceful.

I'm just going to leave this all with behind now. The sooner we all forget about this stupid debacle we can move on to better things.

My original statement from before still stands: the animators made an honest mistake without malevolent intentions, and people like Sheikh Abdul Hamid should just learn to chill out. All I hope for is that the world comes to a better understanding and that every human being stop looking at each other in "us" and "them" factors and came to mutual understandings.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:27 pm Reply with quote
JohnathanEnder wrote:
Mohawk52 you have made your points, and I respect any and all of your opinions. Anime smile

I enjoy my life as a Muslim and I enjoy my life as an anime fan. Both are very peaceful.

I'm just going to leave this all with behind now. The sooner we all forget about this stupid debacle we can move on to better things.

My original statement from before still stands: the animators made an honest mistake without malevolent intentions, and people like Sheikh Abdul Hamid should just learn to chill out. All I hope for is that the world comes to a better understanding and that every human being stop looking at each other in "us" and "them" factors and came to mutual understandings.
Amen to that brother anime fan. Amen to that. Wink
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2650
Location: Somewhere else.
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 7:18 pm Reply with quote
fighterholic wrote:
Like I said in the other thread, the Muslim nation is really the only one that gets to bitch and have it their way when they get offended.

I honestly don't know how someone living in the world's sole remaining superpower can say such a thing with a straight face. The level of irony in that comment just absolutely floors me. You may have been saying this in thread after thread but that doesn't make it any less ironic.

For the record, I think you can live a just and honorable life no matter which religion you're a member of, so long as you choose to do so. Just as I believe that people who aren't affiliated with any religion at all are likewise able to live just and honorable lives if they choose to do so. Honestly I wish we could drop these arbitrary divisions and think of ourselves more as citizens of the same planet instead of members of all these different tribes.
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 11:14 pm Reply with quote
daxomni wrote:
fighterholic wrote:
Like I said in the other thread, the Muslim nation is really the only one that gets to bitch and have it their way when they get offended.

I honestly don't know how someone living in the world's sole remaining superpower can say such a thing with a straight face. The level of irony in that comment just absolutely floors me. You may have been saying this in thread after thread but that doesn't make it any less ironic.

Which is why I look forward to seeing this craphole within the next two years or so Wink
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