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NEWS: "Otaku" Murderer Tsutomu Miyazaki Executed on Tuesday


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Monsieur Pink



Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 141
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:20 pm Reply with quote
Murasakisuishou wrote:
The problem with a life sentence is that it eats up tax money that could go to better use than keeping a murderer alive in a horrible environment.


I've been told that execution in the United States of America, and I guess it would apply to other countries like Japan, are cost almost as much as keeping the guy in prison for life since the juridical process (and all the other bull) is hellishly long, complicated and anything but cheap. But I got no source except my teacher's word, so I could be totally wrong, but I don't feel like looking for confirmation... you know, laziness.
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:26 pm Reply with quote
Murasakisuishou wrote:
Do you believe that someone should be allowed to take a life in self defense? If someone broke into my home with the intent to harm me or my family and I fatally wounded them to protect myself and my property, would that be wrong to you?


If it is the only possible action to defend oneself, that you cannot merely stop him or her, then I would not find a problem with that. For instance, should only a gun be available to stop the intruder who is threatening yours and others' lives, then I don't see how you can be faulted (unless you were capable both in skill and chance to subdue him or her without killing them).

Quote:
What is the death penalty other than a form of self defense? It's not "an eye for an eye, fair's fair", it's "You've slain someone and by doing so proved yourself unfit to be around other people."


Whose life do they threaten when behind bars?

Quote:
If it's so horrible to take a life even if the person in question is a murderer, why is someone who has committed such a heinous act on the same footing as someone who hasn't?


What gives one human being the right to forcefully take another's life beyond self defense?

Quote:
All right, say I'm John Q. Murderer, and I've been through rehabilitation. Either I'm batshit insane and once I'm loose I kill again, or I've been successfully rehabilitated and now I have to go the rest of my life knowing that I killed someone on purpose.

I'm sorry, I just don't see the upside there.


I can't really excuse the former, but there have been cases of the latter (in fact an example of such was given a few local articles a while back). Being brought down both by situations is unique unto the individual, so you cannot paint all of them with the same brush.
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Monsieur Pink



Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 141
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:28 pm Reply with quote
camstore wrote:
I also believe in you reap what you sow (as I am Christian but open to other beliefs). He shall burn in Hell for eternity with Lucifer or any of his demons raping and killing him over and over again.


Wow, you sure are harsh! I mean, I wouldn't even wish that to Hitler for God's sake! Laughing
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Steel Angel



Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 274
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:50 pm Reply with quote
abunai wrote:
Make no mistake, capital punishment is wrong. No matter how monstrous the crime, nothing justifies the deliberate taking of a human life in cold blood.

Frankly, I am somewhat sickened by the cheering and amen-saying in this thread. To call him a monster and a murderer, and to expect that he never be let out of jail again, is perfectly reasonable -- but to exult in a man's death? To say "amen"?

- abunai


No offense Abunai, but I have seen it several times where people who give your exact opinion(s) are the first to change their tune when it happens to "them or their family". Not saying this is specifically true for you, but you'd be surprised how little it takes when it is "your child" that endures such brutality and demise, to change that philosophy. It's always real easy to say "ahh they don't deserve such a harsh punishment" when it doesn't directly effect you.

Do I believe in the death penalty? Yes i do. Does it work? Yep. I live in a state that can show the numbers and documentation. Concealed hand gun laws add to that, the numbers for crime rate decreasing are out there. I'd say the deterrent works just fine.

Yea, I'm in the crowd of "good riddance".
And on the note of insanity, if they are so insane, then they are insane enough not to know they are going to die until it's too late anyways.


Last edited by Steel Angel on Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Murasakisuishou



Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 1469
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:52 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:

Whose life do they threaten when behind bars?


Other prisoners who might not be murderers, prison staff, plus citizens are spending tax money on keeping them alive. While the death penalty may appear to be more expensive up front, over time the costs of execution and life imprisonment will pretty much balance out, including the cost of additional care needed to maintain a decent standard of life as the murderer grows older.

HellKorn wrote:

What gives one human being the right to forcefully take another's life beyond self defense?


What gave the murderer the right to take the life of the person they killed? Why should they have the right to continue to live?

HellKorn wrote:
Being brought down both by situations is unique unto the individual, so you cannot paint all of them with the same brush.


Statistically, rehabilitation doesn't do a thing. Is it worth risking more lives by 'rehabilitating' a murderer and letting them go?


Last edited by Murasakisuishou on Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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britannicamoore



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 2618
Location: Out.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:55 pm Reply with quote
Funny how that whole thou shall not kill thing flies out the window just because you want revenge.
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Isikari



Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 118
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:03 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:


Quote:
... you can't take a chance rehabilitating them.


Why not?


While I think that a lot of criminals can be rehabilitated, there's always a chance of them offending again. When you get up to crimes such as murder, you have to ask yourself if its worth the risk. Personally, I don't think so. You may think differently, but asking why not is frankly a bit silly. You knew the rationale of the quoted poster would be they might offend again, so just say that and why you think its incorrect instead of asking a question with an obvious answer.


Abunai wrote:
Make no mistake, capital punishment is wrong.


Abunai, that's your opinion and I respect that, but next time how about altering it like this.

Quote:
Make no mistake, I thinkcapital punishment is wrong.


Same message stated as an opinion instead of fact, even if it is a fact for you, because it won't appear that way to everyone.

I do find the timing a tad coincidental now that its been brought up and I thought it over, but I'm not going to put too much effort into pondering the circumstances.


I didn't expect there to be much debate here, I figured there might be a capital punishment argument but some of the stuff that came up surprised me. Anonymity on the internet and its effect on manners and our culture never cease to interest me.
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:03 pm Reply with quote
Steel Angel wrote:
No offense Abunai, but I have seen it several times where people who give your exact opinion(s) are the first to change their tune when it happens to "them or their family".


Yet that it still an emotional appeal.

Murasakisuishou wrote:
Other prisoners who might not be murderers, prison staff, plus citizens are spending tax money on keeping them alive.


You're still making the logical leap of assumptions here, and also of means justifying the ends.

You might as well extend the "tax payers losing their money" unfairly to ALL criminals Why should they have to pay for the mistakes of drug dealers, rapists, thieves, etc.? That's selective choosing.

Quote:
What gave the murderer the right to take the life of the person they killed? Why should they have the right to continue to live?


You aren't answering my question. I'm not justifying the act of the crime. I'm asking for why a person has to kill another person who more or less poses no threat to society.

Quote:
Statistically, rehabilitation doesn't do a thing.


And you have statistics without aims of an agenda to back this assertion up?
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mlund



Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 60
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:15 pm Reply with quote
britannicamoore wrote:
Funny how that whole thou shall not kill thing flies out the window just because you want revenge.


It is far less funny that people know so very little about literature that they misquote and mis-translate the Ten Commandments in an invalid attempt to justify their positions.

The Hebrew commandments clearly prohibit murder which this criminal was guilty of, several times over. There is a different ancient Hebrew word for "to end the life of a living thing." It did not prohibit eating meat; killing an aggressor in defense of your life, family, or property; slaying enemy soldiers in war; or executing a capital criminal.

Even in the Latin Vulgate the word isn't contextually close to "kill." The first appearance of "Thou shalt not kill," was in the poor execution of translations by under-qualified translators that focused on poetic meter rather than literal accuracy - giving way to a slew of out-of-context and misleading quotation in English that simply do not happen in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, or Romance Language translations of the Pentateuch.

Moreover, the penalty for violation of that commandment ("You will not murder") in the time of Moses (who delivered the Commandments and obviously knew what they said) was execution.

All that said, I'm not a big fan of executions. I don't have qualms about killing in the defense of yourself or others. My true problem with how offenders like this are dealt with is the unnecessary costs to society they bring. Their perpetual incarceration is just further injury to society. Ideally, such criminals would be put to some sort of labor to make some measure of reparations to their victims and society. If they'd rather not work, they should have the right to demand execution instead.

A lifetime of sitting on your behind draining tax-dollars from the innocent (including the surviving kin of your victims) is not an acceptable solution - it is merely allowing the criminal's behavior of victimizing others to perpetuate itself in another form of abuse (forcing others to work to feed, clothe, and shelter him).

- Marty Lund
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:20 pm Reply with quote
Isikari wrote:
You knew the rationale of the quoted poster would be they might offend again, so just say that and why you think its incorrect instead of asking a question with an obvious answer.


Wholesale rejection rehabilitation in favor of execution is just so inexplicably bizarre that I really could not believe a normally rational person could purport that.
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:25 pm Reply with quote
camstore wrote:
Good riddance he's gone. We don't need anyone to make the word 'Otaku' a bad name.


He's already done that and whether he's executed or left to rot in prison wouldn't make a lick of difference either way to fix that. And its more than a little disheartening that fixing the name of the otaku is the first thing on some people's minds when this guy sexually abused and murdered several little girls.
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Steel Angel



Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 274
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:31 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
Steel Angel wrote:
No offense Abunai, but I have seen it several times where people who give your exact opinion(s) are the first to change their tune when it happens to "them or their family".


Yet that it still an emotional appeal.


Are you saying you are entirely with out emotion then?
Well good for you if you are, cause the rest of us do "feel", and it's called a human response. It's one of the core reasons people do practically everything they choose to do. Whether it be "right or wrong", almost every decision, has a basis in emotion. So saying it has no bearing about decisions is nonsensical.
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britannicamoore



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 2618
Location: Out.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:32 pm Reply with quote
mlund wrote:
britannicamoore wrote:
Funny how that whole thou shall not kill thing flies out the window just because you want revenge.


It is far less funny that people know so very little about literature that they misquote and mis-translate the Ten Commandments in an invalid attempt to justify their positions.

The Hebrew commandments clearly prohibit murder which this criminal was guilty of, several times over. There is a different ancient Hebrew word for "to end the life of a living thing." It did not prohibit eating meat; killing an aggressor in defense of your life, family, or property; slaying enemy soldiers in war; or executing a capital criminal.

Even in the Latin Vulgate the word isn't contextually close to "kill." The first appearance of "Thou shalt not kill," was in the poor execution of translations by under-qualified translators that focused on poetic meter rather than literal accuracy - giving way to a slew of out-of-context and misleading quotation in English that simply do not happen in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, or Romance Language translations of the Pentateuch.

Moreover, the penalty for violation of that commandment ("You will not murder") in the time of Moses (who delivered the Commandments and obviously knew what they said) was execution.


- Marty Lund


I was always in the understanding that the Bible was to be interrupted by its readers for themselves. That preachers were guides but ultimately, you decide things yourself.

Its been awhile since i've sat down with the good book, but the last time I took a look I don't remember there being a passage where killing those in the wrong was a good thing.

Killing is wrong. Regardless of the whos and the whys. So you execute the person. Why not the executor afterwords? They just killed someone too.

The very passage you've written is all the more reason as to why I question the Bible and this just adds up to another one of its great contradictions.

I have no worldly idea why I mentioned the book of riddles thing in the first place.


Last edited by britannicamoore on Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:34 pm Reply with quote
Steel Angel wrote:
Are you saying you are entirely with out emotion then?
Well good for you if you are, cause the rest of us do "feel", and it's called a human response. It's one of the core reasons people do practically everything they choose to do. Whether it be "right or wrong", almost every decision, has a basis in emotion. So saying it has no bearing about decisions is nonsensical.


No, it's that you're painting a broad brush for people to follow.

Emotions are what make us what we are, but justice should not be revenge.
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Isikari



Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 118
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:38 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
Isikari wrote:
You knew the rationale of the quoted poster would be they might offend again, so just say that and why you think its incorrect instead of asking a question with an obvious answer.


Wholesale rejection rehabilitation in favor of execution is just so inexplicably bizarre that I really could not believe a normally rational person could purport that.


Again, I find it improbable you can't believe a normally rational person would prefer execution over rehabilitation for murderers of this magnitude, as in many countries either a majority or a significant minority support the death penalty. If however that is your genuine belief, I'd like to point out that in general assuming your opponent is irrational because they disagree with you isn't the best of assumptions. I've done it before and all it does is stop you from examining your own opinions fairly.

Incidentally, Murasaki might have been rejecting rehabilitation for murderers, not rehabilitation for everyone. He should have specified, and you should have realized he probably wasn't talking about rehabilitation for petty thieves.


I'm going to throw in a quote from myself here to respond to a recent comment (Not your's HellKorn) and just in general some of the discussion in this thread.

Isikari wrote:
Anonymity on the internet and its effect on manners and our culture never cease to interest me.
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