Forum - View topicInterview: Koji Yamamoto, Ryo Ohyama, and George Wada on Guilty Crown
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Red Fox of Fire
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Not necessarily. Certain practices are commonly agreed upon to be good or bad. Without that, "quality" as we know it would not exist; "opinion" would be the only thing present and "good" or "bad" as far as entertainment goes would not even be on anyone's mind. There are similarities that are too obvious in this show to others, and one needs only to have seen the other shows to notice; I and many others were not looking for these similarities when we found them. To a point, quality in writing and plot originality and execution can be judged objectively. Guilty Crown does not score favorably. Different people like different things and there is nothing wrong with liking Guilty Crown (it can be a guilty pleasure). However, objectively speaking, it cannot yet be called any better than average. |
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Konopan
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Ooh, blanket ad hominem, that'll teach those guys to hate that show you kind of enjoy. You're top dog now, buddy. "The ideas behind Guilty Crown aren't being executed in a particularly innovative, effective, or thoughtful manner, and the lack of creativity in the characterization department isn't helping me take the show anywhere close to seriously" just isn't as fun to say as straight-up lampooning the show for some of its more questionable elements. Last edited by Konopan on Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kirkdawg
 Subscriber Posts: 742 Location: California, USA |
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So wait, if I bash guilty crown I'm making a vain effort to be edgy and artistic?
Did I read that right? 
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enurtsol
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It's called a consensus, and it's the best anything subjective could hope for. 
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Ashabel
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But quality really is entirely a matter of subjective opinion. Although criticism exists as a profession, it is meant to help people establish what they would or would not enjoy by describing the content of the work they are about to approach. You can objectively judge the quality of animation on technical merit, but the moment you switch to artistic merits, your opinion becomes purely subjective. Certain shows do employ a more crude art style that not everyone likes for a purpose. The bottom line is that "objective criticism" does not exist. There is a certain consensus about which things should be considered good or bad, but that in no way makes you possible of using your opinion as a matter of fact. In the end of the day, it's only that. Opinion. And before you try and argue about how your opinion has objective merit, go and load ANN's own review of the first five episodes. It was given a solid B. That B doesn't have to be a universal truth. By existing as the reviewer's opinion, it already proves that any judgment you claim will also be nothing more than an opinion. Opinions and criticism can never be objective. People who think more than that about their opinions are just arrogant.
Again, that is only your opinion. I have had multiple people sit down with me and explain exactly why they love Guilty Crown so much and why it moves them more than any other show this season. It doesn't move me that much, for the record. While I find it exhilarating to watch due to its roller coaster narrative style, my favorite show of the season is and will most likely remain forever to be Mawaru-Penguindrum. But I had several friends, one stuck in a wheelchair and another one suffering from chronic pains, voice to me that they grew an invested interest in Guilty Crown from the moment Ayase was introduced properly. They found her strong personality, even with the tsundere routine, to be inspiring and exciting. Disabled people who have any sort of power and are portrayed in a positive light are very rare in fiction. Ayase, to them, proved to be a wonderful role model. Similarly, I found people who became interested in the show because they find the cracks in Gai's strong front to be interesting and more easy to associate with. I know someone who likes Shu more than any other protagonist in action series because, upon given power, he actually gives it some thought instead of immediately hopping off to fight villains. Eureka 7 already taught us that there isn't even necessarily an adventure to find if you drop your old life and move forward. Shu is interesting to that person because he realizes there might not be an adventure there at all. It's nice that you're having fun by "lampooning the show for some of its more questionable elements", but do consider that by doing so, you're opening yourself to being called either rude, a jackass or a troll.
You have attempted to claim that people who enjoy Guilty Crown are too young and inexperienced to know better. You, of everyone who comments here, definitely tried to claim that your subjective opinion is more mature and backed by experience that the subjective opinion of everyone else. That does mean you're making a vain effort to be edgy and removes any hint of credibility from pretty much everything you say. Like or dislike a show, but the moment you try to insult people who disagree with you, you're beginning to cross the line into "not worth listening to". |
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Konopan
Posts: 397 |
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Actually, I was paraphrasing the opinions of many, including some of those posting in this thread and most of the individuals I know who stream or download anime who've attempted to watch this series. But please, excuse me. It's nice that your anime club friends or whatever can enjoy this series for some character traits, but being moving for some does not leave a piece of fiction without fault. The series is frustratingly disappointing at times, and could certainly be executed in a manner that would have less people up in arms about it. |
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Red Fox of Fire
Posts: 345 |
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No. Let's just get this out of the way: that review isn't worth much for your argument considering it still says "Thoughtful or not, the tropes are still there, and in incredible numbers; overwrought score; weak male lead" while the only really good thing it has to say is that it uses some tropes in a thoughtful way (though not bad in itself, still not really what I want to hear from "original" anime). Opinions can only go so far. God, I really hate the word "opinion." It's lost all its meaning today because people so often use it as a cop-out when someone else disagrees and explains why. Same with "overrated," but that's another discussion. "I think this thing is great." "Well, actually, it's not for this and this reason." "NO THIS IS MY OPINION GO DIE." An "opinion" that Guilty Crown is a good show can only come from someone who isn't familiar with what has come before it. Is this valid? In a sense it can be, but that's a problem when you consider that the people GC is aimed is the people who are likely to have already seen these shows. I for one have seen all the shows I know it's been compared to so far (Code Geass, Evangelion, Utena, and Death Note). I'm not sure if GC would be any better if it wasn't anime, but in its own medium it falls short. There is objective criticism to be made. This show's animation is good. The characters and plot are cliche, and while cliche is not automatically a bad thing, it takes very skilled writing to make them good, but GC's writing, compared to what has come before it, is very sub-par. I do not consider these my "opinions," they are things I can clearly point out while watching the show because I have the knowledge to do so. What I would consider my opinion, however, is that Guilty Crown is fairly bland and boring and only worth watching for pretty colors and fanservice, two things I don't value enough to make me want to watch a show. Those are personal values and there's really nothing objective in them. Lastly, remember that I did say "to a point." There is a certain degree of subjectivity to quality. If there wasn't, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion because GC's Quality Rating would likely be set in stone and there would be nothing to talk about other than how much we like it. It's not uncommon for something to have good points and bad points that leave criticism more up to one's own interpretation. However, from what I've seen of GC (7 episodes), it doesn't have many good points and hardly anything worth "interpreting." EDIT: Only meant to preview. Oh well. EDIT2: Lastly, if you still want to go the "opinion" route on things, consider all of the above my own opinion and realize that arguing it is pointless. |
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Ashabel
Posts: 350 |
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Jesus Christ, not anime club. I've been the head of one for half a decade before running away three years ago. Never again. However, note that I had never said that the show is without faults. What I said is that the way you voice discontent with the faults it does have is hostile, rude and alienating. Consider that plenty of people who do enjoy Guilty Crown considered voicing their opinion on the interview, but were put off by the ridiculous spewing of vitriol that took place over three pages in this thread. I can respect your frustration with the series and discuss it with you (and provide my own list of things I dislike or like about the show), but not when you scream and shred into it. Do consider that.
This is what you should have said. The statements about animation quality and cliches were factual statements, but you moved away from the objective criticism you so covet the second you brought in GC's writing. It's true that GC's narrative style isn't for everyone. It takes a very dangerous road of first introducing massive cliches and only deconstructing them into more interesting traits several episodes later. It's not until episode 5, that Inori grows any semblance of interesting personality despite being the show's female lead. However, the reason why that reveal works is because the audience (and Shu) assume her to be someone completely different (and, from the audience's viewpoint, cliche) until then. That narrative style can be both interesting and frustrating. On the one hand, it creates a pace where you're fed a boring cliche and given a pleasant surprise when it's deconstructed later. On the other hand, it can leave you frustrated over the cliche being used at all for entire episodes and reach the point where the eventual reveal isn't enough. At the core, what this means is that GC's narrative style isn't for everyone, which means any statement on it being "good" or "sub-par" is only subjective criticism. In other words, an opinion. You're correct that people who protect their opinion by being hostile toward you are in the wrong. Every opinion is ultimately subjective and while argumentative discussion is good, hostile discussion never is. However, that doesn't mean you can avoid argument by painting your opinion as objective or factual. It's all right for different people to consider the same thing "good" or "bad". It's not all right to claim that your side of the matter is fact. I should probably point out that I did watch Code Geass, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Utena and Death Note. I cannot, in clean conscience, claim that any of them are more original than Guilty Crown (except for maybe, arguably, Death Note). I'll be able to argue which one is better or worse once GC is over and I can analyze it in its fullness, but until then, I don't have a right to give its overall quality a definitive grade. What I can tell you is that it's definitely not less original than Gundam: Now From Char's POV, Magical Girl Fairy Tale: The Deconstruction and Super Robot Hot Pot: Manic Depressive Director Edition. I love these shows because they're considerably better than the sum of their parts, but they aren't and won't ever be the apex of originality. |
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Tanteikingdomkey
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If you can find a redeeming quality in the characters then I could see this being an enjoyable series. I personally can't get over what is fairly unoriginal and sub-pair writing. this show does have a lot of things going for it though.if you want to go for this and try and reach the ending please do.
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merc_ury
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I'm way over 20. Never saw Geass and I like Guilty Crown. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Not interested in reading too much hating on the show which is what it seems most of the first page was, but I really don't get the point of wasting time with that.
The value placed in shows is subjective. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. I liked Geass and I also like this. I'm 30, so it's apparently not something that's only working for younger people. I'm not saying this show is fantastic and in the top 5% of shows, but it's far from terrible. If the talk of the negatives is to counteract the marketing speak I think it's unnecessary. |
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Talias
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I wish there is season 2 the ending bad... Why did Inori die noooooooo! I want season 2!
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