Forum - View topicAnime Expo 2008 - Industry roundtable: Fansubs - The Death of Anime?
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different2
Posts: 3 |
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there is no way library's pay places for more than they can buy them for at the store. If anything they pay less.
Also I was under the impression that people donated things to libraries, publishers donate books, regular people like me donate books etc. It's all able to be written off from your taxes, and also the government gives them money as well. And since the library doesnt carry very much anime, I'm sure it was donated to them. If they had a wider selection, then I might assume they bought it. Also fansubbers no way share it with millions of people unless you group all the fansubbers together, then you might as well group all rental shops together, and everyone who ever loaned a dvd to a friend. But yea no matter what I say you will just say I'm wrong, and if you can't think of any reason you will just laugh and say that Im wrong because you know I'm right. That's how it always is.. Just a useless arguement. People who wish to use numbers to argue against what I am saying, please get some facts and just don't pull it out of your butt. And I thought the problem was that people who even watch 1 fansub are wrong, it doesn't matter how many people you pass the dvd around to. You are still watching something you personally never paid for. |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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You're missing my point. It doesn't matter whether or not calling a person's actions unethical is correct or not - the mere act of labeling them as such is hardly analogous to violent religious persecution. What different2's statement boils down to is: "You said I did a bad thing! Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!". It's pitiful.
The ethical difference here is not with the person viewing the free copy, it's with the person providing the free copy. Lending something you legally own to a friend is generally considered fair and reasonable usage (and thus is ethical and responsible). Making something you do not legally own freely available to millions in spite of the wishes of its creators is neither fair nor reasonable usage. And in the case of torrents, it's not just the original uploader who is "providing the free copy" - it's anybody who subsequently helps make the file available to others (even if they only do so whilst downloading the file themselves). There's also a difference between making something briefly available and making it permenantly available.
That assumption makes no sense whatsoever. My library stocks only a couple of anime DVDs but I can assure you we paid for them the same way we paid for all our other DVDs. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I wouldn't argue that it's religious persecution either. I also do admit it is significantly different on the side of the uploader/sharer.
That being said, as I don't care about legal/illegal here I don't see that as making the action unethical. I don't think sharers are ultimately responsible for what others do with what they share. Those who do something unethical are responsible for what they do themselves. They are the ones who choose the course of action (to not buy). Certainly, it's logical to argue that sharers are enabling that activity. At the same time, sharers are not doing so for the express purpose of enabling it (and if they are, I'd agree it is unethical). They mostly are looking for a way to expand interest in what they like themselves. Now of course, this is my view, and not even that of the sharers themselves. Many of them probably agree with you that what they are doing is illegal and unethical. But they still do it. This is why I don't think "education" is going to solve these issues. At the core people do this because they can do it, regardless of their stance on the ethics. Rather than concentrating on ethics, I think we should concentrate on practicality. What sense does it make not to support what you like when you can do something? Teach people from a risk management standpoint. If there is something else in life that they are currently supporting that they could stand to lose, they should stop supporting that thing in order to support this. I don't think you'll ever convince most who do copy to stop. But you can convince them to buy, if they agree that it makes sense to do so. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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You said I twisted your words, but didn't explain why. You only explained why you disagreed with what I said.
And I'll admit entertainment is "unnecessary" but that's a really easy thing to say for those who have no problems paying for most anything they want. (Please note that I'm not putting myself in the position I'm referring to. I do pay for anime because I can). |
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krelyan
Posts: 173 Location: Utah |
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So you ask others to do research because you're too lazy, but when answers are provided you refute them because "you know you're right?" *scratches head* Rental chains DO pay more for their copies than the average consumer. When I worked at one such chain years ago, it was around 1.5x to 2x the MSRP. I'm not sure how it compares nowadays. Anyways, you're looking at this issue from a very narrow perspective. Borrowing/renting a DVD does not give you a permanent copy. If you want to watch it again (and again) you have to keep borrowing/renting the same item. Now if rental stores started buying a DVD and then making copies of that, then you'd have a more relevant argument. But the fact is that every copy that the rental store puts into circulation is paid for. As for borrowing, yes, you are not paying but, again, someone already has. And most likely, that person is going to want the item back at some point . There's also the sheer logistics, you can only lend your stuff out to a very small percentage of people. You aren't providing copies to thousands and thousands all over the world.
Shouldn't this apply both ways? 
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Kireek
Posts: 274 |
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I have to say this made me rage
Here's a list of cr's dedicated and loving staff members (in no particular order!)~ Without them, cr would not be possible! They are all doing this out of the goodness of their heart, so whenever you have a chance, please show them your gratitude! It has been an honor and will continue to be a pleasure working with such great people. I love you all! - shinji The are stealing files and selling them to make a profit for themselves out of the goodness of there heart? |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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No, I'd say the burden of proof should be on those who think all us downloaders/uploaders are evil villains out to destroy the industry, regardless of whether we pay or not, regardless of whether we tell others they should or not. Now, if you are just stating your opinion, then I think that's fine but understand that we are going to not agree with it. If you are stating it's a fact that what we do is unethical/immoral/etc. then you should prove it always is and explain why it always is.
Borrowing doesn't mean that you will pay merely because it's not permanent. Neither does a permanent copy mean that you wont pay. It's all up to you what you do with either one. |
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krelyan
Posts: 173 Location: Utah |
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Woah, I'm not sure where all this came from. I was merely annoyed that he was ranting about others doing the same thing he just did - making baseless assumptions (libraries have everything donated to them, renting/borrowing = downloading, and the persecution complex) to argue their points. And for the record, I don't think I've ever had an issue with fansubs, just those who don't support what they honestly enjoy. In fact, I've only seen a small percentage of the "anti-fansub" camp really argue the whole "If you watch fansubs, you're going to BURN IN HELL!" angle.
And of course, it's just my opinion. You obviously can't argue ethics as fact. Also, even if the fans had access to information such as R1 sales figures, it'd still be impossible to irrefutably prove just what effect fansubs have on the industry.
Again, just noting the differences. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Alright, we're just about done here. 19 pages of the same people saying the same thing it just about enough. Especially when certain people, and you know who you are, jump on every opportunity they can in every thread that so much as mentions fansubs just to say the same exact thing over and over in those as well. If you're just looking to lecture, and not discuss or demonstrate any willingness to listen while spitting out the same thing over and over then we're hit the point that there no longer is a point. I'll let it roll a bit longer, but honestly we're heading straight towards locksville with this one. Not to mention that this has gone in to the repitition mode with little discussion about the actual roundtable itself any longer.
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Kireek
Posts: 274 |
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I dont understand why some random law court doesnt come along and shut the scum that is crunchyroll down.........
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2231 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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Namely because copyright infringement is a civil offense and no one has sued them yet. Now that they have some money to pay judgements with, it's probably only a matter of time until someone sues them, although the Japanese may be apprehensive about taking such a public action in fear of destroying a possibly lucrative market. CR has 3 million users, maybe a million in the US. If you turn those people against you by suing CR, you just lost a lot of potential customers... But then again, it might be something you have no choice but to do. Generally I would suspect that the only entity that could sue crunchyroll would be something like JASRAC, which is Japan's version of the RIAA or MPAA rolled into one. JASRAC could sue CR and it probably wouldn't face as much of a backlash since it would be viewed by CR users as "Japan" suing CR, and not one particular company. It'd be a very difficult lawsuit, though. That branch of international copyright law has all kinds of loopholes. |
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Kireek
Posts: 274 |
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I feel sad UDON has gone on to crunchyroll I buy there stuff comics and what not..........I know he wants to advertise his stuff to the masses I just wish he had no gone thru a sire like that.
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Kireek
Posts: 274 |
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a 2nd year college student still figuring out what to major in. i like anime, music, video games, and sushi (as if you couldn't tell). "shinji" is a nick that i've used online since i can remember.
Im assuming he's not really that???? |
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tygerchickchibi
 Posts: 1448 |
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On a random note, was it this thread that had stated something about DB fansubs stopping their subs of Naruto Shippuden immediately/permanently?
Oh, something about them being placed on sites so people can watch streaming video for free. Guess they didn't like that at all. Fansubs are a serious business. Last edited by tygerchickchibi on Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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