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NEWS: Youka Nitta to Quit Manga Work, Back Catalog Pulled


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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:55 pm Reply with quote
Cait wrote:
CCSYueh,

You might also recall that one of those poor fellows in Milli Vanilli committed suicide after their lip-synching scandal, which, seriously, is not comparable to a scandal about plagiarism. Lip-synching is mortifying to be caught at, but it isn't illegal.


From Wikipedia (Because I dopn't think I actually ever listened to Mili Vanilli, but the scandal was big enough this headbanger heard of it. Hell, Vince Neal killed the drummer from Hanoi Rocks, wasn't it. Still had a career.)
Quote:
However, their success turned to infamy when their Grammy was revoked after it was revealed that the actual vocals on the record were not the voices of Morvan and Pilatus. In 1998, ten years after Milli Vanilli's debut, Pilatus was found dead in a Frankfurt hotel of an apparent drug overdose.


So the scandal was a BIT more than lip-synching. It was they weren't even the singers (Singing in the Rain, anyone?).
Fraud
Isn't that what we're talking about here?
Years later, drug overdose.
Sounds more like faded star not being able to let go of past glory

Cait wrote:

As for these recent events I can't say I'm surprised in the least. In fact, I'm glad that it has turned out this way. For Nitta and her publisher this was the only ethical course to take. For the foreign posters to this thread, I'm in the same boat with you guys. I seriously don't understand why my fellow Americans think this is no big deal. Well, no, I do understand and that understanding is what irritates me. American fans are apathetic, and not only that, they take for granted that they live in a capitalist society where everything is sold.


Really?
As I said, I think it's more our own history of leaving one's homeland for a new life. All the cops in town know who you are? Maybe you should change your ways, turn over a new leaf & move to another town or even state where everyone doesn't have a pre-formed opinion of you.

Thank god Americans DO believe in second chances or all my convicted felon clients would be unable to find work. Since I work in criminal rehabilitation, I probably have more faith in people's ability to start over. I get success stories all the time, people who stole from their employers, wrote bad checks, shoplifted, used drugs who change their lives for the better as long as someone will let them start over.
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luisedgarf



Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 542
Location: Guadalajara, Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:31 pm Reply with quote
BleuVII wrote:
CCSYueh, you're absolutely right about the way the respective religions have influenced cultural mindsets over the centuries. America still opreates on the paradigm of redemption, but in Japan (and Korea to an extent), there's no concept for starting over, save from death and rebirth in the cycle of reincarnation.


That explain why in many anime many characters say: "The price of failure is death" or something in the same way.
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Cave



Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 80
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:41 pm Reply with quote
xanderion wrote:
Is it because I'm French that I'm more surprised by how lightly American people seem to take this kind of matter?


Oh, reaaaaal smooth there. You're actually going to bring ethnicity into this argument? The only people out there taking this lightly are those who are IGNORANT of what she's done. I'm glad to hear that she quit as a mangaka and isn't going to Yaoi-con. How can you not know doing this kind of thing is absolutely wrong and illegal when you are supposed to be such a well-known professional?

I don't like her art, so frankly I don't care if she quits. If it was an artist that I adored even my entire life such as Fujisaki Ryu, I'd expect the same reaction. I take this very seriously. People who plagiarize are not artists.

In for the record, I am American. So please try not speaking so... racist-y next time.
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Cait



Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 503
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:46 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
From Wikipedia (Because I dopn't think I actually ever listened to Mili Vanilli, but the scandal was big enough this headbanger heard of it. Hell, Vince Neal killed the drummer from Hanoi Rocks, wasn't it. Still had a career.)

So the scandal was a BIT more than lip-synching. It was they weren't even the singers (Singing in the Rain, anyone?).
Fraud
Isn't that what we're talking about here?
Years later, drug overdose.
Sounds more like faded star not being able to let go of past glory


Vince Neil still did time (30 days in jail) for his accidental killing of one of his good friends in a car wreck (they were both drunk, Vince just happened to be the guy driving). I don't mean to claim that sentence was even nearly enough to atone for his negligence, but it did indeed go to court and a judge decided a sentence he thought was appropriate and Vince served it.

In order for a case to be "fraud" it has to actually cause damage in some way. Finding out that the singers on the album and the guys who represented the "face" of the music were different people doesn't exactly do what would be construed as legal harm to the public. It upset a lot of people, yes, but they weren't stealing the music from the actual artists without permission and passing it off as their own. Had they stolen the music from the real artists, yes, they would have been committing fraud (and copyright infringement).

Nitta isn't in trouble because her fans are shocked and disappointed by the revelations, she is in trouble because she stole something specifically protected by law.

Quote:

Really?
As I said, I think it's more our own history of leaving one's homeland for a new life. All the cops in town know who you are? Maybe you should change your ways, turn over a new leaf & move to another town or even state where everyone doesn't have a pre-formed opinion of you.

Thank god Americans DO believe in second chances or all my convicted felon clients would be unable to find work. Since I work in criminal rehabilitation, I probably have more faith in people's ability to start over. I get success stories all the time, people who stole from their employers, wrote bad checks, shoplifted, used drugs who change their lives for the better as long as someone will let them start over.


My point is that you still have to pay for your mistakes. The entire western concept of "redemption" requires penance. It involves accepting the punishment for the mistake that you made. Just because you didn't know your crime was "wrong" doesn't mean you should get away with it.

If Nitta were to claim, "I didn't know it was wrong so I shouldn't be punished," I would have zero respect for her, but despite claiming ignorance, she still stepped up and accepted the consequence of this issue, ending her career (possibly permanently). She's not going to jail. Her "life" isn't over, and even if her career as a manga artist is over for good, it isn't the end of the world. She can go on and do something else. She doesn't even need to decide today. The point is that she did something wrong and now she has to pay for it.

You don't hire a bank robber as a teller before he's ever done one day in jail for his crimes. He goes to jail, he takes some counselling classes, maybe goes back to school and gets the degree he needs and then he can apply for that job at the bank as a reformed man. Telling the judge at his arraignment that he's "sorry" and he "won't do it again" isn't going to get him out of serving time. He doesn't get to skip that step because he thinks he's "learned his lesson" already.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:31 pm Reply with quote
Cave wrote:
xanderion wrote:
Is it because I'm French that I'm more surprised by how lightly American people seem to take this kind of matter?


Oh, reaaaaal smooth there. You're actually going to bring ethnicity into this argument?



I said it was incredibly stupid, but she didn't kill anyone. She didn't cause any physical harm.
Suspend her
Dock her pay
Have her do community service (Which Vince Neil also got, as I recall)
But erase her from manga entirely?

I keep hearing people who have softened on Pete Rose, think JUST because he was a manager/coach/whatever of a team his betting on sports wasn't all that big a deal & they should STILL allow him to be voted into the Baseball Hall of Fame or whatever that is back east. Yeah, some support the ban, but others say what he did post playing doesn't change how great a player he was in his day.

Talent & brains don't always go together. There are a lot of talented entertainers/artists who aren't all that bright. Doesn't change their talent.
John Lennon wrote some great music. Doesn't mean the words that came out of his mouth otherwise were gold. Even angered some folks enough to burn Beatles records at at least one point, didn't he?
As I said, George Harrison made a lot of music after losing that 1976 copyright infringement case. They didn't erase all copies of "My Sweet Lord". They didn't remove his back catalog
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xanderion



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:57 am Reply with quote
Cave wrote:
In for the record, I am American. So please try not speaking so... racist-y next time.


Do I? Sorry then, I didn't mean to. After browsing so many discussion in English about her, I was just very appalled by the leniency most of her fans, and even those who don't know her, seem to feel for a matter of tracing and copying some copyrighted material.
I thought that interrogation of mine was just rhetorical. Sorry to have offended you.
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sunflower



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1080
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:06 am Reply with quote
Quote:
I seriously don't understand why my fellow Americans think this is no big deal. Well, no, I do understand and that understanding is what irritates me. American fans are apathetic, and not only that, they take for granted that they live in a capitalist society where everything is sold.



That's a rather harsh generalization that I doubt can be substantiated. A lot of the English-speaking people supporting her on the Youka Nitta group, for example, hail from parts of the world other than the US. I know, because I know them. There are some parts of the world with cultures that don't even consider copyright to be worth acknowledging, and they couldn't care less.

Both I and my BL-loving friends from the US are angry at what she did. But she admitted what she did was wrong, and I'm pretty darned sure she won't be doing it again. And while both my friends and I think temporary suspension is a good idea while a) she regroups and b) the companies wait to see if anyone is going to bring a lawsuit, and c) as a punishment for screwing people over, we all think that an end to her manga career is too much. But apathetic we aren't.
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mufurc



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 612
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:51 am Reply with quote
Cait wrote:
Nitta isn't in trouble because her fans are shocked and disappointed by the revelations, she is in trouble because she stole something specifically protected by law.

Oh, she could very well be in trouble because her fans are disappointed. If she loses the trust her fans placed in her then she's screwed and she'll never be able to wash this stigma off of herself, no matter how hard she and the company try to pretend that nothing had happened. But then, I don't know about her Japanese fans and I have no time to investigate, but on the English-speaking side of the 'net people seem to be quite forgiving (in fact, I'm quite disappointed to see so many people who think that plagiarism is no big deal.)

Cait wrote:
If Nitta were to claim, "I didn't know it was wrong so I shouldn't be punished," I would have zero respect for her, but despite claiming ignorance, she still stepped up and accepted the consequence of this issue, ending her career (possibly permanently).

Frankly, if I was her fan I'd be even more disappointed this way. I mean, "I didn't know it was a crime, sorry" is like saying "I think blatant plagiarism is okay if it's not illegal." And that's incredibly disappointing, coming from a popular, long-time mangaka. If she had said "I'm sorry, I have no excuse, I knew it was wrong and I did it anyway" then I'd have no problems accepting her apology as a fan.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:54 am Reply with quote
mufurc wrote:

Frankly, if I was her fan I'd be even more disappointed this way. I mean, "I didn't know it was a crime, sorry" is like saying "I think blatant plagiarism is okay if it's not illegal." And that's incredibly disappointing, coming from a popular, long-time mangaka. If she had said "I'm sorry, I have no excuse, I knew it was wrong and I did it anyway" then I'd have no problems accepting her apology as a fan.


That would be even more inexplicable, wouldn't it?
Get into the "criminal" mindset for a second or 2.
Most people know certain things are illegal, but do them anyway & don't consider themselves criminals. Most downloaders just claim it isn't a crime or there's no way to enforce it, so hahaha they're doing it. Speeders are likely short on time/want or need to get from point A to point B so they ignore posted limits because there's no cop they can see to give them that ticket. Shoplifters have a variety of reasons from lack of cash to "the thrill if it". Dog off the leash, any driving infractions, etc. The peopel doing them all have reasons for ignoring the law.
Obviously we don't know what was going thru her mind. MAYBE (maybe, remember) she used the reasoning if she were to go on a trip & take pix, she could use them, so pix in a magazine (such as travel, fashion, etc) are somewhat sort of like that maybe & the fact it seems she stuck with ads which as I've pointed out are largely seen as somewhat disposable like a picture postcard suggests she saw them as possibly different from a copyrighted photo.
Sticking with the criminal mind line, the perfect crime is more likely one committed once. Had she done it once & never again, we probably wouldn't be here. However like a lot of criminals who get caught, she "got away with it" & kept it up. Maybe the first time she did it, she did change a lot, but as she never got caught, she could have reasoned no one must care. Or she did it so many times she "got sloppy" as they say. That was pretty blatant & the drawing in the magazine isn't all that noteworthy.
I spent about a half hour to an hour on a plagerism website & the only mention in a similar light I found was the ref to the Slam Dunk incident that saw the artist's title cancelled, but the site also pointed out Inoue himself was accused of copyright issues over official NBA pix, though that went nowhere according to the site. (I vaguely recall the incident, but have little interest in Slam Dunk, so I didn't ever follow-up) However his copying NBA pix is very similar, is it not? Did they cancel Slam Dunk? Did he have all his back catalog pulled?

Will fans be disappointed? Some probably will. I moved past that stage long ago. I discovered the Beatles in the 1970's when John Lennon was doing all sorts of strange things like walking out of restaurant bathrooms with a feminine pad on his head. George Harrison was sued for stealing his biggest post-Beatles hit at the time. I learned then these people are only human & one can revere the talent, but totally disagree with their politics or lifestyle.
Our idols are just as human as we are.

It just seem very coincidental for her quitting to be announced on top of Libre cancelling all her back catalog. It strongly suggests a little pressure, though we can't know for sure. Personally I would have thought a hiatus/suspension while the dust settles would have been the logical move. Watch the back catalog to see how it sells. Check the internet comments to see the support or lack of it. Make a decision in 3-6 months.

Quote:
(in fact, I'm quite disappointed to see so many people who think that plagiarism is no big deal.)


Maybe we've just seen so many clones of the same ideas too many times to want blood over the issue. I can't watch Big O (2nd season? forget now) without being reminded of Twilight Zone because there's a similar BGM segment in there. That Naruto theme that always reminds me of Bruce Springsteen (who was on that plagiarism website for alleged lifts of I believe Sam Cooke). Too many other times to remember I'll be listening to anime music & be heavily reminded of some other song.
Is it wrong-yes. Just not as noteworthy as serial-killers or child molestors or rapists. It's getting caught with your pants down--a used car salesman getting caught rolling back the odometer. Wrong, but you aren't going to chop his hands off.
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portgas



Joined: 17 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:46 am Reply with quote
Emichan wrote:
I guess she just doesn't have the connections that Kayono does.


Or those of Takehiko Inoue. He's been copying NBA photographs for years and nothing gets said. It's really very well documented but nothing is ever done.
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Bara_Megami



Joined: 08 May 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:39 pm Reply with quote
Shocked Oh hell no. When stuff like this happened to a mangaka I wasn't familiar with, I wasn't really concerned. But only having read one volume of Haru wo Daite Ita and LOVING IT, I am devastated. Crying or Very sad

It was a PHOTOGRAPH for chrissakes!! It's one thing if she copied another mangaka's poses, but a fashion photo? How is this cause for concern? People need real-life reference when they draw!! I'm gonna go mope around now Sad Sad Sad
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sunflower



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:03 pm Reply with quote
Bara_Megami wrote:
It was a PHOTOGRAPH for chrissakes!! It's one thing if she copied another mangaka's poses, but a fashion photo? How is this cause for concern? People need real-life reference when they draw!! I'm gonna go mope around now Sad Sad Sad



It was a copyrighted photograph. That she traced. She didn't use it as a reference. She traced it, line for line. Then she sold it, to publishers and the public as her own work. She made art books full of pictures like that, with traced and photoshopped portions, with no credit to those who made the originals, no payment to those who made the originals, and no notice to those buying it that these were anything other than completely hers. She mislead everyone, cheated the original makers out of fees, and her fans out of her real work.

This seems to me to be cause for concern.

As I said before, I don't think she should retire from manga because of it, but what she did was *wrong*.
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kawaii_kawaii



Joined: 18 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:29 am Reply with quote
I agree with sunflower.
Quote:

It was a PHOTOGRAPH for chrissakes!! It's one thing if she copied another mangaka's poses, but a fashion photo? How is this cause for concern? People need real-life reference when they draw!! I'm gonna go mope around now

Being a design student myself, I am aware of the fact that we (ie, designers, mangakas ... those who work by drawing and designing) are surrounded by so many ads per day, that we may be influenced by them. It's true that whenever we design/draw a piece, we have to collect materials, look at other people's works ... to have the creative substances to make our own artwork. The final artwork can be influenced by precedent works, but it IS a DIFFERENT piece.
That's why, I personally think the problem is not that she is not aware of the copyright thing, but that She.Have.Traced.Other's.Artwork(meaning, making every details the same, from the shadow, the people's position, the shape of the buildings ... here she only replaced their characters by her characters), speaking another way, she were not creative while looking at others pieces. She STOLE other people's ideas.

And, really, IT IS NOT ONLY 1 PIECE. I have seen that she copied many , I mean many, advertising artworks from other people, and change the characters into her own, and publish it, without asking for permission, without saying that "I have borrowed this idea from bla bla person on bla bla mags". What she's doing is the same as taking the music of some bands, change some words in the lyric, and publish it again, without the original bands' consent.
You guys can see a LIST of the works that she plagiarised here : http://nittakensyoumirror.web.fc2.com/index.html There's lots of them.
Believe it or not, plagiarise is wrong. It's true that you can "imitate" somehow (by the concept of pastiche) or borrow some ideas (by the concept of remixability) to make an artwork, but it HAS to be a new artwork, not solely an "imitation". Other people also work hard to make it, you can't just see it and take it, as if it's your own.
I am disappointed. Sad Because I understand her situation. However, not speaking about her plagiarised artworks, she did a Really good job in drawing her mangas, honestly. So I think she should prove to the fans that she can continue and come back to draw.
I love her works, and really want to see more of it , someday, maybe.
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akiahara



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:11 am Reply with quote
Some of the works listed here http://nittakensyoumirror.web.fc2.com/index.html
look like reference to me, but some are just plain ripped off.

I don't think there's anything wrong with using these images as reference, even as a professional, but I don't see why someone with so much talent would want to trace them.

It's sad, really. I do think she should be reprimanded, but leaving the industry entirely is extreme. I don't think this is an earth shattering scandal, though, and I think quitting, plus pulling the back catalog, is an overreaction.
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manafairy



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:22 am Reply with quote
A lot of those I wanted to say were being nitpicky as they were such generic poses, but then she went and copied the outfits button for button or the background brick for brick. Ugh. How dumb do you have to be to think no one will ever notice such stupidly blatant plagiarism. At least Inoue didn't steal the backgrounds and jerseys off the NBA photos.

But, truth be told, even with the sheer amount of eye rolling that that site forcibly induced, I still have to say this news saddens me and this reaction seems extreme. Her spreads and covers weren't her only artwork, after all. She did still draw her actual manga, and her story telling skills and characterization were her own. So her artbook is a lie, but the only reason she was able to release an artbook at all was because her actual work was good enough to make a lot of fans, so I can't say this pisses me off nearly as much as I want it to.

Of course, that evaluation's only on a personal level and disregards any actual repercussions that may be required, but I guess I just wanted to explain why I think a lot of her fans can still stand behind her even in light of such a scandal.

On that note, it'll be a real shame if I never get to read the rest of the Prime Minister's Secret Diplomacy, as it's genuinely intelligent and really well written, a rarity in manga in general, let alone yaoi. But at the end of the day, worst case scenario, I'll get over it.
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