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Hey, Answerman! [2008-07-18]


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Showsni



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 641
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:09 pm Reply with quote
According to the Oxford English Dictionary,
emo, n. Orig. U.S. See emo-core.
emo-core, n. Orig. and chiefly U.S. A style of popular music originating in the United States in the mid 1980s, derived from hardcore punk music and characterized by emotional, usually introspective lyrics. Also: the subculture or style associated with this music.
Moe doesn't seem to have an entry yet.
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5344
Location: Philly
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:09 am Reply with quote
Showsni wrote:
Moe doesn't seem to have an entry yet.

Not surprising since it's not English, isn't found in common usage among English-speakers outside a particular niche, is quite new, and it generally takes about a decade to update the dictionary (a college professor of mine told us they tend to continuously update going through alphabetically, and it takes about ten years to get back to the same letter).
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:53 am Reply with quote
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Showsni wrote:
Moe doesn't seem to have an entry yet.

Not surprising since it's not English, isn't found in common usage among English-speakers outside a particular niche, is quite new, and it generally takes about a decade to update the dictionary (a college professor of mine told us they tend to continuously update going through alphabetically, and it takes about ten years to get back to the same letter).
Oxford is updated every year.
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samuelp
Industry Insider


Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2228
Location: San Antonio, USA
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:44 am Reply with quote
To be honest I think that Oxford should hire Google to give them a list of the most common words on the web that aren't currently in their dictionary and just choose some sort of cutoff for what to include.

Most newspapers and magazines are on the web now in some form, and blogs and journals are the most common form of public writing by "normal" people now, so it's probably the most accurate way to judge actual usage frequency you can get today.

Must be a fun job, though, to be the person charged with writing the definitions for the new words. (It's probably done by committee, actually). Imagine the poor sap who got to define "fanboy" last year.
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5344
Location: Philly
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:28 am Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
Oxford is updated every year.

I must have remembered incorrectly then.

samuelp: The OED is also available online (for a subscription) and is regularly updated (notice the top news post is that on June 12 they updated everything from quittal to ramvert). They've been doing this dictionary stuff long enough to know how it works.
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Lampton



Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 6
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:06 am Reply with quote
I think a lot of people misunderstand or only take in one example of the word "moe". Moe doesn't have to do with lolita complex at all, like few have mentioned. It doesn't even have to be sexual either.

I usually feel moe over old people and fat animals, but I remember feeling moe over my sister's baby photos. I've never seen any baby who looked like a lard-worm, and still look incredibly cute.

There was also an old man I saw at a bus stop who had had time walking and was holding a cane to aid him. I know that it's rather mean of me to laugh about this, but the moment he stepped off the bus, he had to take a moment to sort of...um...old-man-tap-dance? To regain his balance and posture before walking again. I just found that simply adorable for some unknown reason.

And then I felt slightly bad for mentally laughing but...it was just SO cute of him.
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TJ_Kat



Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 362
Location: Saskatoon, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:17 pm Reply with quote
BrothersElric wrote:

Quote:
It's like we're so used to the stoic gung-ho hero who has a very limited range of emotions and doesn't feel any "negative" emotions, that when we encounter a character with a normal emotional spectrum, they must be emo (I blame shonen fighters for this).


I don't think this is a fair thing to say at all. It's like you're saying it's a bad thing for a character, especially a hero, to be a good upstanding role model for people to look up to and be inspired by. I mean sure, it may not be a very realistically portrayed character, yeah, but that doesn't mean they're bad characters either. I mean really, your basic typical shounen hero is no different from your basic typical superhero.


I'd actually meant the little jab at shonen fighters as a bit of a joke. I specifically had Naruto - who only seems to have two modes: hyper happy, and angry yet righteous (okay, he feels sad sometimes, but it doesn't last and he quickly snaps into one of the other two) - and Ichigo - who's whole character is all about being stoic (even when he's sad, he's not sad) - in mind when I typed that. After all, they're the two most 'mainstream' shonen characters in North America.

And I didn't mean to say that there's something wrong with these types of characters as role models (I was trying to be brief, so maybe I cut out too much), but rather that there's something wrong with us. That by considering these characters to be the emotional norm, we have lost our perspective on what a normal emotional spectrum should be. That it's normal and perfectly acceptable to get sad, and that just because you're sad, doesn't mean your emo.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4566
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:42 pm Reply with quote
I don't see anything at all wrong with being sad, nor would I call someone with a valid reason to be in such a state "emo." What I do have a problem with, however, is a character who allows him/herself to wallow in overblown self-pity to the point where he/she is incapable of confronting the cause of his/her sadness. That's not normal emotional behavior in the least, and if it's supposed to be some sort of take on depression, it's usually a horrifically unrealistic one. Not to always dig up the same old chestnut, but Shinji and Asuka are very guilty of this in my humble opinion; I'm sure anyone who's seen the series should be able to figure out why I think so.
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:45 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
What I do have a problem with, however, is a character who allows him/herself to wallow in overblown self-pity to the point where he/she is incapable of confronting the cause of his/her sadness. That's not normal emotional behavior in the least, and if it's supposed to be some sort of take on depression, it's usually a horrifically unrealistic one. Not to always dig up the same old chestnut, but Shinji and Asuka are very guilty of this in my humble opinion; I'm sure anyone who's seen the series should be able to figure out why I think so.


Uh, actually I don't. Well, not quite; I can guess, but don't see how you could argue for that.

I cannot claim to be an expert in psychology, but from what I've witnessed people can just as well recognize problems but not grow beyond them; some even dwell on their shortcomings and repeat their mistakes ad nauseum. It becomes a cycle that they cannot escape from -- and sometimes, even if they do, they relapse.

(Ha, and I just finished re-watching Haibane Renmei again last week... Good times.)

Whether a person finds such personalities in fiction to be engaging or not is their business. However, the fault lies not within the story but rather the viewer if such depictions do not aesthetically appeal to them. Deeming such realities to be inherently "bad" is placing limitations on what fiction can represent, and I can't see that as desirable.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:55 am Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
Uh, actually I don't. Well, not quite; I can guess, but don't see how you could argue for that.

Well, if I must spell it out, what I took umbrage with is the way that both characters essentially devolved into will-less, spineless, lifeless blobs of moroseness by the end of the series. spoiler[Hell, in Asuka's case, she literally depressed herself into a coma.] The characters didn't seem to acknowledge to themselves that they were going down that path, nor did they even really make the futile pretense of trying to snap themselves out of their funks. Any progress that Shinji did show around the midway point of the series wound up being completely negated by the end. I'd even go so far as to argue that the supposed roots of their neuroses were so removed from them as to be inconsequential in any realistic setting. Everything about their characters felt forced, leaving them as mere archetypes of psychological disorders instead of living, breathing characters dealing with them.

(In my mind, the only thing that could have saved either of them was a big Kamina-styled punch to the jaw, but that's another story.)

I fully understand the concept of becoming trapped inside a cycle of self-pity, with setbacks plaguing every attempt at escape. Hell, by some definitions, I'm probably experiencing some form of depression myself at the moment. But what I'll never be able to understand are those characters that are not only locked into such cycles, but seem to take some sort of perverse pride in remaining in that state. This is even more the case if whatever the character's morose over is disproportionally affecting them. That classic opening scene of Eva is as good an example as any I can think of. I don't care who you are; I don't care how much "trauma" you suffered in your childhood. If someone offers your 14-year-old self a giant honking robot to fool around with, you're going to jump right into it, and you're going to want to blow some **** up.

And I don't see how blaming myself as the viewer for not "getting" what the artist is trying to portray really means anything. I could just as easily counter by asking whether or not what the artist was trying to portray holds any inherent value. I personally don't see it as desirable for fiction to be created with the sole purpose of causing the viewer anguish; no matter how "beautiful" or "moving" the work is, I believe there's something inherently unhealthy about bringing oneself down willingly and intentionally. (This is the very reason why I'm only reluctantly watching Now & Then, Here & There on Sci-Fi; even the first few episodes have confirmed everything I've heard about it being a cluster**** of depression.) In my mind, shows that utilize characters that fit that stereotypical view of "emo" are trying to do so in the cheapest and least-meaningful manner possible, and I feel like fiction as a whole would do itself a favor by avoiding that trope.
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:44 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
spoiler[Hell, in Asuka's case, she literally depressed herself into a coma.]


Uh, way off the mark.

spoiler[Asuka just loses motivation to live. When she is returned and hospitalized she is drugged. I have no idea why the "coma" nonsense is so popular among viewers.]

Quote:
The characters didn't seem to acknowledge to themselves that they were going down that path, nor did they even really make the futile pretense of trying to snap themselves out of their funks.


A person can recognize a problem (or problems) and still not do anything about it, regardless of whether they're able to or not. Too many examples in real life to refer to.

And have you actually been around clinically depressed people before? I'm not talking about the pop punk, "slit your wrists," mascara-wearin' teenagers -- I'm talking about those who simply cannot motivate themselves in day-to-day living, period.

Quote:
Any progress that Shinji did show around the midway point of the series wound up being completely negated by the end.


Naw, the endings to the series and movie make it clear that he's taken to first steps to "recovery," so to speak. For much of the remaining third of the story, though, he spirals downward largely due to external circumstances, as well as his own shortcomings.

Quote:
I'd even go so far as to argue that the supposed roots of their neuroses were so removed from them as to be inconsequential in any realistic setting. Everything about their characters felt forced, leaving them as mere archetypes of psychological disorders instead of living, breathing characters dealing with them.


Except their own shortcomings are what come back to haunt them. Hesitance to connect with others, investing your entire life in your work, only maintaining superficial relationships, jealousy, inability to reconcile with your parents -- for much of the main cast these problems are established in the very beginning and come back to bite 'em later on.

Quote:
(In my mind, the only thing that could have saved either of them was a big Kamina-styled punch to the jaw, but that's another story.)


Don't think that you'd find much work as a therapist. (First human reaction: when dealing with a difficult situation, respond with violence!)

Quote:
But what I'll never be able to understand are those characters that are not only locked into such cycles, but seem to take some sort of perverse pride in remaining in that state.


There's no actual hints that any of the characters in the series take pride in being screwed up. Don't see your suggestion as being applicable.

Quote:
That classic opening scene of Eva is as good an example as any I can think of. I don't care who you are; I don't care how much "trauma" you suffered in your childhood. If someone offers your 14-year-old self a giant honking robot to fool around with, you're going to jump right into it, and you're going to want to blow some **** up.


Oh, come now, Top Gun; you're one of the more intelligent posters on here, yet you fall back on this false cliché!

It's a gross simplification and misunderstanding of Shinji's predicament and personality, respectively. Plus, y'know, not everyone is a stereotypically hyped-up teenage male that wouldn't blink an eye to stick his neck out by command of someone who has betrayed them.

Giving the weight of the world to a 14-year-old out of the blue, and only inhumanely using him for your own gains after neglecting them for years is not going to be be inviting for anyone. Even taken from an allegorical perspective, Gendo is callously placing a responsibility upon Shinji that just gives him misleading purpose. Neither come across as appealing to me.

Quote:
And I don't see how blaming myself as the viewer for not "getting" what the artist is trying to portray really means anything.


That's not what I'm saying. (Although it's evident that a part of the audience, both its detractors and fans, really do not get messages and intent. That goes for just about any piece of fiction that actually requires a notable amount of contemplation.) I'm saying that putting relatively realistic elements in a work of fiction is not inherently bad. If some folks don't like 'em, I'm fine with that, but to wholesale deny their worth and state that they have no business in fiction is very petty.

Quote:
I could just as easily counter by asking whether or not what the artist was trying to portray holds any inherent value. I personally don't see it as desirable for fiction to be created with the sole purpose of causing the viewer anguish; no matter how "beautiful" or "moving" the work is, I believe there's something inherently unhealthy about bringing oneself down willingly and intentionally. (This is the very reason why I'm only reluctantly watching Now & Then, Here & There on Sci-Fi; even the first few episodes have confirmed everything I've heard about it being a cluster**** of depression.)


I agree with this wholeheartedly, and have grown weary of types such as Now and Then, Here and There that offer nothing more than emotional vicariousness and gratuitous finger-wagging without actually commentating on the subjects they dwell upon.

However...

Quote:
In my mind, shows that utilize characters that fit that stereotypical view of "emo" are trying to do so in the cheapest and least-meaningful manner possible, and I feel like fiction as a whole would do itself a favor by avoiding that trope.


I cannot see how Evangelion falls under this category. (Nor anything else that is emotionally honest and actually offers food for thought , such as Haibane Renmei, Mushi-shi, The Wings of Honneamise, Wolf's Rain, The Girl Who Leapt Through Time, etc.) Evangelion is a pure expression of its creator, Hideaki Anno. For better or for worse, he lays out his thoughts and feelings through the characters, each one his avatar to varying degrees. There is no emotional manipulation for the sake of emotional manipulation. There is commentary, and symbolism and depth (yes, actual character depth, both from trivial quirks to being unable to succinctly define them with vague generalizations) to them that has caused discussion and debate to circle around such characters ever since the series was released over a decade ago.
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