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NEWS: Law Journal Article Supports Fansubs


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melonbread



Joined: 09 Jan 2008
Posts: 317
Location: UK (London)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:35 pm Reply with quote
Good stuff.

He should extend this to manga as well. Stupid Viz.
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halo



Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 356
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:35 pm Reply with quote
omoikane wrote:
halo wrote:
Anime isn't a civil right people.


As a general rule, civil rights relate between government regulation on the subject matter and the people it affects, so that's a silly statement to make. But it is subject to protection of freedom of expression and things like that.

You are looking for some other phrase, and it is not "civil right."


I'm referring to peoples attitude that they are somehow endowed with the right to do what they want with something that's not theirs. Not that I'm against fansubbing, but to try to justify it this way and call for laws to protect it it absurd. If you want me to rephrase it, I'm sick of people whining and their sense of entitlement and I'm doubly sick of excuses.

petran79 wrote:
However one point is unclear to me. Are not imported DVDs also illegal? If say one European company buys the distribution rights of an American movie, while now with the state of Euro/Dollar, the consumer can buy the US version a lot cheaper, isnt it illegal to import that title?


Yes, as a matter of fact many are. For example, if you imported a Japanese Ghibli title that's released here by Disney you would certainly be breaking the law. Even many discs that aren't even licensed for the US would be illegal outside of Japan since they're specifically only licensed for distribution there. I've pointed this out before in arguments for fansubbing where people want to point out overly strict interpretations and enforcements of copyright laws.
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Brakus



Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 130
Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:57 pm Reply with quote
grgspunk wrote:
Whatocean wrote:
This person is either selfish, naive, or both.
So mainstream anime that comes out is heavily edited.
Boo-hoo.
If you're a true fan, you'd get off your lazy ass and learn Japanese like I did.
If you're so disenchanted by the American editing job, buy it from Japan in its raw form.


Very practical there. I'm pretty sure everyone has the time and money to learn the Japanese language (featuring a staggering collection of 3000+ kanji characters) and importing raws with expensive shipping costs. Rolling Eyes


People go on and on about how little time there is in the world, and then when one person declares he is learning Japanese and taking their time to enjoy raw Japanese cartoons, these people declare that they have too much time on their hands. A double standard if there ever was one.

Quote:
A true anime fan would want everyone to be able to view anime in its original form without such major obstacles, moron.


Then all the true anime fans live in Japan because they're the only ones able to watch anime in its original form without such obstacles, slacker.

Not all people who want to watch anime in Japanese are as lazy as you are. Maybe they really do want to put the effort to learn the Japanese language and culture so that they don't have to watch anime with all those subtitles in the way.

Quote:
Besides, 4kids is dead and a lot of titles are already released here unedited: You think getting the companies to release the few unlucky titles in its original form would kill the industry?


If people continue to download illegal fansubs of titles in their "original form" -- if you think that means "plastered with subtitles and overlays, translated by people who don't have true experience in translating Japanese in to English without help from many, many books, not taking into account context, tone, style, etc." -- then it will kill the industry. The Japanese don't call the fansubs "little boy book translations" for nothing, you know....
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omoikane



Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 494
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:18 pm Reply with quote
halo wrote:

I'm referring to peoples attitude that they are somehow endowed with the right to do what they want with something that's not theirs. Not that I'm against fansubbing, but to try to justify it this way and call for laws to protect it it absurd. If you want me to rephrase it, I'm sick of people whining and their sense of entitlement and I'm doubly sick of excuses.


To be honest, words are cheap. You and people that annoy you can say and write all you want but it's not going to do much. And it's our right to be able to say this stuff, even if only in private or in places that allows for freedom of expression.

There's no law or rules against having an attitude as you describe; this guy at least got enough stuff together to publish in a professional academic journal and bothered to substantiate his legal arguments, however thin it may be. If you want to rebut him, I suggest you do something along the same lines. That's how academic peer scrutiny is suppose to work, right?

And that goes to anyone who wants to look down on a law student.
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Kireek



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:24 pm Reply with quote
I wonder how much of the 4 million crunchyroll got to pay him for this artical................No seriously he had a good go even tho I dont agree with him
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Labbes



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 890
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:26 pm Reply with quote
grgspunk wrote:
Quote:
However one point is unclear to me. Are not imported DVDs also illegal? If say one European company buys the distribution rights of an American movie, while now with the state of Euro/Dollar, the consumer can buy the US version a lot cheaper, isnt it illegal to import that title?


Technically yes, but it just isn't enforced. They implemented it as sort of a safeguard to prevent competition between different regions for what should be the same product.


As far as I know, the import itself is not illegal, it's just illegal to play the DVD with a codefree DVD-player (Or worse: Use anydvd!). That means, if you buy a R2 player, playing R2 DVDs is perfectly ok.
(I could be wrong on this, though, since I am no expert.)
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:36 pm Reply with quote
Some of y'all are tripping on this. Even if it was idea that would even be approached, it has no grounds. Fansubs and illegal downloading isn't going to go away anytime soon, but this is simply a joke. Companies these days have actually been working to try and relicense stuff that they might have released years earlier, and are restoring it digitally and uncut. So, this guy is a little bit behind the bandwagon.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:47 pm Reply with quote
omoikane wrote:

There's no law or rules against having an attitude as you describe; this guy at least got enough stuff together to publish in a professional academic journal and bothered to substantiate his legal arguments, however thin it may be. If you want to rebut him, I suggest you do something along the same lines. That's how academic peer scrutiny is suppose to work, right?

And that goes to anyone who wants to look down on a law student.


It's hardly a "professional academic journal". Law review publications are basically a collection of notable student essays that don't get distributed outside the campus walls unless requested by libraries or other institutions. A good friend of mine had several essays printed in her school's psychology review journal as an undergrad; it's not quite the authoritative source you might think. This is a student essay, not a professor or a lawyer having something published in a professional national publication.
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BellosTheMighty



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 767
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:58 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

It's hardly a "professional academic journal". Law review publications are basically a collection of notable student essays that don't get distributed outside the campus walls unless requested by libraries or other institutions. A good friend of mine had several essays printed in her school's psychology review journal as an undergrad; it's not quite the authoritative source you might think. This is a student essay, not a professor or a lawyer having something published in a professional national publication.


Which begs the question, why is it on the front page? I mean, it's not like it's going to become relevant to our lives anytime soon... I know that ANN is not responsible for the fact that its' regular posters are idiots, but some explanation of just what kind of a journal this appeared in might be welcome to prevent people from getting the wrong idea. Just calling it "Law Journal Article" seems like some kind of yellow journalism...
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CorneredAngel



Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 854
Location: New York, NY
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:00 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:


It's hardly a "professional academic journal". Law review publications are basically a collection of notable student essays that don't get distributed outside the campus walls unless requested by libraries or other institutions.


Zac, with all due respect, law reviews, especially from a brand-name law school, are something other lawyers (as well as judges, etc.) take pretty seriously. In fact, most of the content in them is written by professors, and everything, including the student notes, undergoes rigorous peer review. Yeah, you're not likely to find a volume in the local public library, but most law schools, courts, and big law firms receive them automatically.
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halo



Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 356
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:00 pm Reply with quote
Labbes wrote:
grgspunk wrote:
Quote:
However one point is unclear to me. Are not imported DVDs also illegal? If say one European company buys the distribution rights of an American movie, while now with the state of Euro/Dollar, the consumer can buy the US version a lot cheaper, isnt it illegal to import that title?


Technically yes, but it just isn't enforced. They implemented it as sort of a safeguard to prevent competition between different regions for what should be the same product.


As far as I know, the import itself is not illegal, it's just illegal to play the DVD with a codefree DVD-player (Or worse: Use anydvd!). That means, if you buy a R2 player, playing R2 DVDs is perfectly ok.
(I could be wrong on this, though, since I am no expert.)


No, the discs themselves are sometimes/usually specifically licensed for distribution in a certain region and distribution outside of that region is prohibited. I'm sure if you look on a few discs you'll see it somewhere.
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Brians9824



Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 281
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:08 pm Reply with quote
I'll also chime in here. I know Josh personally as well as he is/was a member of my anime club before he left for law school. He has a considerable dvd collection, is definitely NOT a rich spoiled kid, and works hard to get where he is.

As it has been mentioned this is a law REVIEW, not a proposal to change the law. They are merely looking at existing laws and analyzing them under a different context that might not have been considered. He was also working on this article for a considerable period of time, mainly before 4kids started releasing uncut dvds.

Its very unlikely that any law such as this would ever be passed but it was never intended for that. It's also true it doesn't effect alot of shows at the moment but that doesn't detract from its validity. Its merely an intellectual debate on the merits of the law. Something thats done quite often I believe.

Nowhere does it say that he or anyone else ever proposed a change, merely he's asking a what if question.
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Kireek



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:10 pm Reply with quote
Why we have to talk about fansub argument constintly nowdays instead of sitting down at home and watching videos/DVDS Crying or Very sad
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indrik



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 365
Location: yonder
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:17 pm Reply with quote
There are a couple of people saying things that go to this point, I just picked one to quote.

jsevakis wrote:
While I appreciate the sentiment of this otaku-who-got-into-law-school, he's missing one gigantic piece of the puzzle: the changes to hack-n-slash dubs are AUTHORIZED BY THE LICENSOR. ALWAYS. The licensor represents the program's producer and is, in the eyes of the law, its creator.


But that's the question here. My understanding is that moral rights can't be transferred, meaning that the creator maintains them regardless of whatever else is sold. If that's the case, that would mean that (for example) if Toei bought the rights to One Piece, sold them to 4Kids, and demanded edits to make the show more profitable in the US, Eichiiro Oda could still protest and both companies would be legally required to respect his wishes. I don't know for sure which countries recognize moral rights this way- I'm fairly sure France, Canada, and the UK do, and the US does not. I've got no idea about Japan, but I bet I could find out.

There's some interesting stuff in here:

http://www.caslon.com.au/mrcasesnote2.htm

Which I found while looking up the Monty Python editing case. I thought it might be similar to what we're talking about, but they had explicitly not authorized editing, so it's not the same thing. But it does get into moral rights a little bit.

I think it's a potentially interesting legal argument that ultimately belongs in a law review, where people essentially discuss legal opinions and viewpoints. Or at least I assume they do, based on what happens in chemical and engineering reviews. It's a different forum than a journal, but that's why they've got two different kinds of periodicals.
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doctordoom85



Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 2091
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:24 pm Reply with quote
Brians9824 wrote:
I'll also chime in here. I know Josh personally as well as he is/was a member of my anime club before he left for law school. He has a considerable dvd collection, is definitely NOT a rich spoiled kid, and works hard to get where he is.


In that case, could you please inform him that it's often the Japanese licensors who chose to release anime edited to foreign audiences (sometimes even picking the edits themselves)? The article is DEFINITELY wrong on that tidbit of information, since it acts like the rights of the creators are being infringed on, when that's really not the case here.
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