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Otakon 2008 Fansubs and Industry Panel


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Sven Viking



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1035
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:40 pm Reply with quote
luisedgarf wrote:
The point is, in the case of American movies, is rarely used and frowned on the use of worthless notations here in Mexico in official subbed versions, since you should try to find yourself that info, instead of cluttering the screen with that info, and maybe the anime fans should do the same, instead of asking anime companies to do the same thing that fansubbers do just to "educate" the audience, even if the audience doesn't give a damn about that topic.

Although you're correct in thinking many people would like educational notes (especially where understanding would require detailed knowledge of the Japanese language), I think you misunderstood. The complaint was not that cultural references are left unexplained, but that they are frequently removed entirely if it's assumed that a majority of viewers will not understand them. So viewers have no chance to find the info for themselves -- they're left unaware that there's anything to find.
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pparker



Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 1185
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:43 am Reply with quote
Kireek wrote:
Quote:
Then, the way to sell DVDs is to punch up the extras and the collectible aspect. I buy R1 DVDs, if the value is there in extras, and if I plan to re-watch the series multiple times. I just ordered CLAMP's Tsubasa-xxxHolic Double Feature specifically for the 2 hours of extras.


I totally agree with this....Bandai have recently got there act together with realeasing a ton of extras with the likes of Harurhi and TTGL.....people don't want DVDs with bare bones rubbish on them. If you give people a reason to buy it they will.


Had to add this, having come across the reference below.

Again as a relatively newer fan (1 year), I have been frustrated by the bare bones aspect of R1 releases for the money paid. Having finally realized that ADV's "Premium" collections actually meant "Economy" collections with all extras removed, I had to go back and re-purchase 3 different series. That practice doesn't endear new fans to R1 DVDs, I can tell you. Collectors (those who buy DVDs) new to anime expect to get similar value to what they get from US movie and TV DVDs. A "clean OP" and previews? Seriously?

And BTW, those prices the Japanese pay for Limited Editions? The value is a bit different than what we get. Just one example:

"Boosting the Lucky Star sales were an exclusive background music/radio drama digest CD and a Lucky Star's Forest computer mini-game on CD-ROM. "

"...Tekkonkinkreet's time to shine as its dual editions took the one-two spots. The Limited Pressing Edition added an extras disc with over 100 minutes of footage as well as interviews and a discussion between director Michael Arias and the soundtrack's Plaid. It also included a 120-page making-of book and 54 pages of director's notes. "

animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-07-20/japanese-animation-dvd-ranking-june-20-july-17

Seasoned anime fans and the younger demo may not care about extras, but those of us who came to anime as fans of film entertainment in general have a far different expectation of value.
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houkoholic



Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 83
Location: Japan
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:55 am Reply with quote
pparker wrote:

And BTW, those prices the Japanese pay for Limited Editions? The value is a bit different than what we get. Just one example: <snip>


Sure, if your market is willing to pay US$70 per volume for 2 episodes with these goodies (the first press LS in R2 is 6900yen for 2 episodes with the extras) en mass, I'm sure the R1 guys would also be jumping head over heals to provide it for you. Rolling Eyes
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pparker



Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 1185
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:18 pm Reply with quote
houkoholic wrote:
pparker wrote:

And BTW, those prices the Japanese pay for Limited Editions? The value is a bit different than what we get. Just one example: <snip>


Sure, if your market is willing to pay US$70 per volume for 2 episodes with these goodies (the first press LS in R2 is 6900yen for 2 episodes with the extras) en mass, I'm sure the R1 guys would also be jumping head over heals to provide it for you. Rolling Eyes


There's my newbie showing. You're right, 2 eps does make a difference. Although I did pay my $35, reluctantly, for the Gunbuster 2 discs because I wanted them bad enough.

In the end, it would depend on that was included and how much I liked the show.
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houkoholic



Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 83
Location: Japan
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:41 pm Reply with quote
pparker wrote:

There's my newbie showing. You're right, 2 eps does make a difference. Although I did pay my $35, reluctantly, for the Gunbuster 2 discs because I wanted them bad enough.


Keep in mind too that often these extra goodies has to be negotiated and paid for separately from the show itself - just because you licensed the show doesn't mean you automatically have access to all the other nifty stuff that is related to the show. Even stuff which seems really trival like staff and cast interviews are separate rights in nearly all instances.

This means that prices can only go *up* when companies includes these extras, and since people are already reluctant to pay more than 30 dollars in R1 despite them already getting some of the best values in the world, you can see it becomes very hard to justify spending the money (and in turn increasing the prices) to include all these extra goods for releases.
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x_silversurfer



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 163
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:46 am Reply with quote
Look at each side of the panel. one side is smart, intelligent and has reasonable ideas about the future of anime distribution and the other is lacking in forward thinking and intelligent conversation (save a few).

I think the real issue is not licensing time tables and how the anime market is a niche market and there's no money in the market. Sure, the market is smaller then just the theater release all of Batman: The Dark Night, but the ability to market on that scale is available to apply to the consumer.

We're living in a world where amateur professionals can do both a better and faster job then the designated people who produce, market and distribute the media content.

How I would revive my spending in anime:
1. faster turnarounds on licensing rights.
2. more professional, higher quality work (more literal subs with curse words, etc.)
3. No censorship. The days of kids wandering into anime is over, adults have the money to buy, adults should be who anime is marketed to.
4. wider distribution. A pay-channel on TV, like HBO Anime would be nice! Movie releases in theaters, and manga in our major newspapers, or at least some other highly distributed resource.

The ideal situation would be a show that airs in Japan and shortly there-after (within the week), a subbed version airs on US/Euro/Canada TV. Time the movie releases and such internationally. I think that if a large enough studio built up international ties with TV Networks and provided options for uncensored high quality work, then it is something foreseeable marketable, profitable, and benefits both the industry and the consumers.

Here's to a perfect world. /cheers
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britannicamoore



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 2618
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:23 am Reply with quote
x_silversurfer wrote:


4. wider distribution. A pay-channel on TV, like HBO Anime would be nice! Movie releases in theaters, and manga in our major newspapers, or at least some other highly distributed resource.



I hate to...bring it up but its more a positive so i'll swing with it. They have tried those things. Thing is, they simply executed them wrong.

Most of the channels were restricted to certain areas depending on the cable provider. Also, only certain cable providers had certain things. The other thing, most of the titles were older. I feel that if this could be executed better, such as a title that is airing in Japan being shown on the station people would be more inclined for these stations.

As for movie releases in theaters they do show some movies, but I do wish there were more. I know they can't market like Dark Knight or even the B Class movies, but they could try new ad tactics to market the movies. I would love to go see Eva in theaters, and have longer than a weekend to do it. If they could actually get the movies promoted
they'd do better. I'm sure some random non-anime fans would walk in to check it out.

Manga in the paper has been tried as well. Unfortunately, it was OEL manga. I think if they ran Bleach, or another big manga there they'd be good to go. i think the only problem here is that most manga don't get a punch line or conclusion within four to eight panels. It'd make it really difficult to work out....it works for Spiderman, but I doubt people would be willing to give it a chance.


I have to wonder which side do you think is which in the opening of your post, but I have a feeling from the tone of the rest of your post I know.

Heres to a maybe not a perfect world, but one run smoother. *cheers*
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x_silversurfer



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 163
Location: Hotel California
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:56 pm Reply with quote
britannicamoore wrote:
x_silversurfer wrote:


4. wider distribution. A pay-channel on TV, like HBO Anime would be nice! Movie releases in theaters, and manga in our major newspapers, or at least some other highly distributed resource.



I hate to...bring it up but its more a positive so i'll swing with it. They have tried those things. Thing is, they simply executed them wrong.


Very true. That was what I was getting at in the post above. A lot of things have been done poorly, and in a sense they are getting better titles like Bleach into the US, and from what I've heard Manga sales are increasing (if only slightly).

Specifically with the movies though, the last major release I heard was of the Bleach Movie in New York, and like many consumers, I found out about this after the fact. Not that I'm going to hop on a plane and see the release, but there are many people who would see that in New York City alone and after seeing the audience that was there, I can only assume that it was as poorly marketed in New York as it was in the rest of the world.

The question I have on that is where would they find the audience for the paying consumer? That, I don't have an answer to.

britannicamoore wrote:

I have to wonder which side do you think is which in the opening of your post, but I have a feeling from the tone of the rest of your post I know.


As for sides... I think it's pretty apparent that I'm a little biased against the "industry" fellas. That's not to say that there were intelligent arguments from the panel, but the fan sub side seemed to be more conscious of the viewers, maybe even the consumers.

There's always going to be that group of people who are going to say "why buy something when I can get it for free," but they need to know what they're going to miss out on. Original artwork, unpublished trailers, director's thoughts, actor's reviews. People who would normally download regular (American live action films) buy regular movies because of those features. I do, at least.

That's not to say that people will buy anime because we have the original manga artist giving a voice over of the show while you're watching it, but that original artwork and sometimes even the bloopers (yes, English dubs, lol, I know...) I like to watch and I'd buy for those reasons too. But I stopped purchasing anime and "consuming" it as often when I'd get inferior products that even I (a very basic novice of Japanese) can tell that when a character just says "sugoi!" it doesn't mean "you are very a interesting person." I find it amazing that dubbing and subtitling contain such mistakes as this and in a way it's contributing to people thinking that the average anime consumer is not intelligent enough to read between the lines and catch metaphors or see arms ripped off, or mature rape scenes. This is what elevates anime to an art form, and not just another Saturday morning cartoon.

We, the consumers, are more intelligent then that.

I agree with GetFresh (at least I believe that was his name), when he was talking about how he was watching an anime series on blue ray and the black background was grey-washed, and how the art is censored and the lyrics changed. That's what we are faced to live with, inferior products or versions of the same product that breaks the suspension of belief.

I'll cheer for a more perfect world. Wink
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:49 pm Reply with quote
Heiskell wrote:
However, it is still extremely difficult to convince typical anime production committees that are made up of representatives of many different companies that an approach of this kind is ever viable.
This is not surprising as most of them are back street production houses who still haven't a clue that their product is seen outside of Tokyo, let alone Japan, nor do they seem to care in reality. It's that old isolationist mentality that they can't seem to get over.

Heiskell also wrote:
Similarly, Japanese companies are - and will likely remain - reluctant to directly use fansubbers' expertise during production.
Not if Crunchyroll, turns into BigBankRoll for them, but again they have to be convinced and there's the rub. Wink
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omoikane



Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 494
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:05 pm Reply with quote
crilix wrote:
There's a transcript of the panel if you want to dig more into it. Rest assured, I agree that the bulk of total profits is made on merchandise licensing. After all, they have to pay ridiculous amounts of money just to get it on TV. Interesting read though.

Yea, I was at that panel too Smile

I think it's just a nitpickery thing I'm doing. What you say is not exactly what is meant by the phrase.

As an aside, one important aspect is to define who is exactly making the money. In other words, who is the industry? From a total consumer/fan perspective, it's the artists and studios that make anime, and their production and licensing overlords who fund their operations. However, DVD sales go to some of those overlords, toy sales go to others, etc. So by saying so-and-so recoup production costs it's not clear what and who is getting that money. And since licensing takes place well before any anime gets aired, some of the up-front payments from licensees and what have you would have already subsidized the production as it was going along.
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bayoab



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 831
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:04 pm Reply with quote
x_silversurfer wrote:
We're living in a world where amateur professionals can do both a better and faster job then the designated people who produce, market and distribute the media content.

If the professionals could ignore all rights, they would be just as fast. However, they have to license the music, license the sound effects, license the video, etc and this stuff takes time. (I see from your list that you realize this, but this isn't the sort of thing that can just be rushed.) The industry really needs to make a better point of how long these things take behind the scenes. As the Media Blasters guy said, once the materials are actually there, they blast through a DVD in a couple weeks.

Quote:

2. more professional, higher quality work (more literal subs with curse words, etc.)

Why do there need to be curse words when there were none originally?

Quote:

3. No censorship. The days of kids wandering into anime is over, adults have the money to buy, adults should be who anime is marketed to.

TV needs to be censored because there are too many lawsuit happy people out there who don't understand FCC rules. Also, most shows that make it on TV are for kids and teens, not adults. (Yes, even on adult swim.)

Quote:
4. wider distribution. A pay-channel on TV, like HBO Anime would be nice! Movie releases in theaters, and manga in our major newspapers, or at least some other highly distributed resource.
There have been at least 3 cable networks (TAN, Funi Channel, iaTV) already and they are not being picked up. Clearly, there is a reason behind this involving the actual size of the audience. (Yes, I am aware that most of these channels want to be on the free level and not the pay tiers.) There is already a pay one (TAN VoD) that seems to be on most providers already as it is.

As far as movies go, the industry cannot support wide distribution. Miyazaki films even do relatively bad in limited release with disney "backing them". And it seems that there aren't even enough people out there to support small scale distribution. I went to the second airing of Tokikake in NYC and there were 17 people in the entire theater. (Bandai still said the movie did well... somehow.) With the Naruto movies, I remember doing the math and it was still an extremely small number of people. (I seem to recall that it ended up that the average showing was half full, but I might be completely misremembering.)
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StevieC54



Joined: 18 Jul 2007
Posts: 4
Location: metro Atlanta, GA
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:44 am Reply with quote
Who Is This Guy!? wrote:
However, here are my two cents: I shamelessly download a fansub. If I like it, I proudly purchase the DVDs. I've been doing it that way for a while now, and I'm quite happy as it stands.


I have to agree with the original poster. I'm a big fan of fan subs and if I like the series buy it on DVD *IF* it ever comes out in the US. Like MoHs. That is the crux of the biscuit. A big *IF*.

There is a lot of good animne out there that I like that has never seen the light of day in the US. Where is _Nagasarete Airantou_? Any of the Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha series? What about _Minami-ke_? How about _Hayate no Gotaku_? Well, at least the manga of that is being published here now. These are all series that have finished that started their respective runs over a year ago, in some cases a lot longer than that.

The current "industry" rarely releases anything in a timely maner. I heard that the first two half series of _Magical Gilr Lyrical Nanoha_ are going to be released on DVD, but I have yet to see the first DVD. The first half series is what, three, four years old? By this time, I've watched the series a few time so when/if the box set comes out, I'll pick it up.

But if the industry had been timely in the release of same, I would have been right there to buy it when it first came out. And it doesn't have to be dubbed! Media Blasters picked up on that fortunately and did a good job with Kashimashi, releasing it in a timely manner. Not the greatest series but the point is they released it in a timely maner, simply subbed, and I bought it.

Oh well. maybe they'll get it eventually. I mean like if volunteer fan groups can do it quickly, why can't "professionals"?

My 2 cents worth.

Not holding my breath for a US release of _Wolf & Spice_. Wink
(Most excellent series, btw, already collecting the figures, but that is another subject....)
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billborden



Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 73
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:12 pm Reply with quote
bayoab wrote:
x_silversurfer wrote:
We're living in a world where amateur professionals can do both a better and faster job then the designated people who produce, market and distribute the media content.

If the professionals could ignore all rights, they would be just as fast. However, they have to license the music, license the sound effects, license the video, etc and this stuff takes time. (I see from your list that you realize this, but this isn't the sort of thing that can just be rushed.) The industry really needs to make a better point of how long these things take behind the scenes. As the Media Blasters guy said, once the materials are actually there, they blast through a DVD in a couple weeks.

Quote:

2. more professional, higher quality work (more literal subs with curse words, etc.)

Why do there need to be curse words when there were none originally?

Quote:

3. No censorship. The days of kids wandering into anime is over, adults have the money to buy, adults should be who anime is marketed to.

TV needs to be censored because there are too many lawsuit happy people out there who don't understand FCC rules. Also, most shows that make it on TV are for kids and teens, not adults. (Yes, even on adult swim.)

Quote:
4. wider distribution. A pay-channel on TV, like HBO Anime would be nice! Movie releases in theaters, and manga in our major newspapers, or at least some other highly distributed resource.
There have been at least 3 cable networks (TAN, Funi Channel, iaTV) already and they are not being picked up. Clearly, there is a reason behind this involving the actual size of the audience. (Yes, I am aware that most of these channels want to be on the free level and not the pay tiers.) There is already a pay one (TAN VoD) that seems to be on most providers already as it is.

As far as movies go, the industry cannot support wide distribution. Miyazaki films even do relatively bad in limited release with disney "backing them". And it seems that there aren't even enough people out there to support small scale distribution. I went to the second airing of Tokikake in NYC and there were 17 people in the entire theater. (Bandai still said the movie did well... somehow.) With the Naruto movies, I remember doing the math and it was still an extremely small number of people. (I seem to recall that it ended up that the average showing was half full, but I might be completely misremembering.)


The first point is valid, or would be except that the entire argument is that the process needs to be streamlined, ie: eliminating those bottlenecks. If the industry claims that there can be no streamlining, then they will fail and the fan-subs will succeed; it's that simple. The anime industry will not go away in Japan, any more than sit-coms ever did in America; because when the inflexible companies fall, more industry capable groups come along and produce the same same, or better, quality for a reasonable price. The single most factious argument I've heard on this thread is that "company x claims that it works, so who are we to argue?" This discussion exists because whatever they are doing ISN'T working, companies aren't making enough money (Genon, ADV). The fact is, any company is quite capable of repeating the same failing process over and over, claiming the result will be different each time, until it is on--or past--the brink of failure. A company that is too hidebound to change when change is necessary, will fail, and it will not be the first time.

To the second point: some times there were curse words in the first place. Like the rest of the world, the Japanese do swear.

To the third point: Once again, that's what cable is for. As a purchased product, cable stations have much greater latitude in what they can show/say.

To the fourth point, The distribution of these channels could not have been too wide, as I have never heard of any of them, either in Iowa (admittedly a potentially more limited market) or in the Seattle Comcast network (a rather larger market). In fact, Comcast does offer two Anime choices in their "On Demand" package: Anime network--running primarily years old series and only finishing about half of them , and Anime Select--running slightly newer series, but with a small enough library that I've watched most of the shows already (watched them on their channel, not from any other source). Both offerings also suffer from an incredibly slow release rate, no more than a couple new episodes a month. Without widening their libraries and accelerating their release rate, they really do no good.

Without aggressive marketing no new channel works, and, outside of CN's Shounan Jump based shows, I have yet to see any real effort to push Anime on American TV. ADV at least tried with Anime network, but as most of the adds I saw were on their own DVDs, that doesn't really do anything to expand their audience.

(Yes, I know that all of CN anime is not Shounan Jump, but most of it is on that level; and does not attract the bulk of the 18-25 and older crowd)
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:45 am Reply with quote
billborden wrote:
The first point is valid, or would be except that the entire argument is that the process needs to be streamlined, ie: eliminating those bottlenecks. If the industry claims that there can be no streamlining, then they will fail and the fan-subs will succeed; it's that simple. The anime industry will not go away in Japan, any more than sit-coms ever did in America; because when the inflexible companies fall, more industry capable groups come along and produce the same same, or better, quality for a reasonable price. The single most factious argument I've heard on this thread is that "company x claims that it works, so who are we to argue?" This discussion exists because whatever they are doing ISN'T working, companies aren't making enough money (Genon, ADV). The fact is, any company is quite capable of repeating the same failing process over and over, claiming the result will be different each time, until it is on--or past--the brink of failure. A company that is too hidebound to change when change is necessary, will fail, and it will not be the first time.
Then how do you explain FUNi's success when they are basically doing the samething as Geneon and ADV have done, albeit with different titles?
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Amplified



Joined: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 1
Location: 京都、日本
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:48 am Reply with quote
Wow, see these are the guys defending their DUBBED anime? Speaking about screwing up the _japanese_ culture phenomenon, dubbing really destroyes a serie if anything. The only way people get their series might be thru fansubs since companies arent keeping the original work :S

p.s They cant even really pronounce the names of the series right. Scary tbh Shocked
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