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Otakon 2008 Fansubs and Industry Panel


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Big Hed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1607
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:23 am Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:

And wow, the FUNi guy said they're making their decision on 1 or 2 episodes of whether or not to license. Real bad practice in my opinion, as shows can either get dramatically better or dramatically worse at any time.


I doubt this practice is considered optimal, though. My first thought was that the Japanese companies are only giving Funimation that many episodes to preview.

Overall, this was a very interesting article. I'm really happy to see that there are opportunities for R1 representatives to sit down with prominent fansubbers; it really helps to provide perspective on this whole mess. I haven't seen the video yet, but I'll be sure to watch it.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14746
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:04 am Reply with quote
BTW, just a quick thought on this (don't have time to read it thoroughly right now):

Back on the debate days of Neil Nadelman and Trish Ledoux - can a fansubber be a professional translator at the same time, or is that like serving two masters? Confused
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Kireek



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:32 am Reply with quote
Its so good to see them have a civel talk with each other.....because all the infighting before was really ruining the fandom for me and I suspect many others
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:43 am Reply with quote
enurtsol wrote:
BTW, just a quick thought on this (don't have time to read it thoroughly right now):

Back on the debate days of Neil Nadelman and Trish Ledoux - can a fansubber be a professional translator at the same time, or is that like serving two masters? Confused



(So I've been lurking for some time, mostly the news section; trying to avoid the forums but I guess I'd like to chime in now so someone else can provide more details if available, because I'm curious too)

From what I understand, DB is like that, though their client list is kept confidential for obvious reasons. You may notice they are a real LLC offering translation services.

Likewise Media Blasters has hired fansubbers before and brought over Rurouni Kenshin after John Sirabella watched the fansubs. I've also read that the founder of BOST were also involved with fansubbing (although I think their business model is flawed.. but that's beside the point).

.. and I think tofusensei here is also a real translator (?)

edit:typo


Last edited by configspace on Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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pparker



Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 1185
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:07 am Reply with quote
Good to see them all finally agreeing that the solution is for licensed distributors to meet the needs of fans. My perspective is from a year of intense fandom, both buying lots of R1 DVDs and downloading lots of fansubs.

The fan wants a decent translation, no Americanization, DVD quality, and near-immediate access. Obviously that's what we want, because that's what good fansubbers give us after years of adjusting to demand, and is what the distributors will have to duplicate in order to resolve this. As the fansubbers said, if the industry meets those needs at the proper price point, then fansubs will be moot.

Funimation's $1.99 per episode may still be a bit high. The sweet spot is likely around $1.50, for a fully downloadable version with HD quality video comparable to current fansubs. The $3.00 "rental" fee from BOST for crappy quality is a non-starter. Crunchyroll will likely get it right, though the prices are still too high and quality low.

They have to do whatever is necessary to reach a profitable number of paying fans for this to work. The first distributor to offer fansub-quality or better downloads for $1.99 or less per episode, and maybe free preview of at least 3 or 4 eps, is going to win, IMHO.

Then, the way to sell DVDs is to punch up the extras and the collectible aspect. I buy R1 DVDs, if the value is there in extras, and if I plan to re-watch the series multiple times. I just ordered CLAMP's Tsubasa-xxxHolic Double Feature specifically for the 2 hours of extras.

Glad to see from this panel that some of the industry has already seen this, and are ready to act.
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Kireek



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:36 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Then, the way to sell DVDs is to punch up the extras and the collectible aspect. I buy R1 DVDs, if the value is there in extras, and if I plan to re-watch the series multiple times. I just ordered CLAMP's Tsubasa-xxxHolic Double Feature specifically for the 2 hours of extras.





I totally agree with this....Bandai have recently got there act together with realeasing a ton of extras with the likes of Harurhi and TTGL.....people dont want DVDs with bare bones rubbish on them. If you give people a reason to buy it they will.
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Prinnydood



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Maine
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:40 am Reply with quote
I had hoped to attend this panel, but it overlapped with the Masquerade. Thanks for the report, I had been curious as to the level of civility at the panel.

Regarding Funimation's business practice of licensing a show based on only an episode or two: Potentially risky, but if they are going to provide a timely alternative to fansubs it makes sense. As can be seen by the comments by the fansubbers, more people will be deterred by "Please don't fansub this series, we've licensed it" than "The Japanese licensors asked us to ask you not to fansub this series, we might acquire it someday."

Their recent guessing record seems good, Glass Fleet was probably a mistake, but that's the only one that comes quickly to mind. As long as most of the (nearly) blind buys are from directors and studios with consistent records, they should be fine.
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omoikane



Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 494
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:39 am Reply with quote
If people are curious, there is a sort-of transcript of the panel here.

The writeup is good but there was a lot more going on at that panel than is let on by this article. I suggest curious people see if they can get a video or something.
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angel_lover



Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 645
Location: UK
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:45 am Reply with quote
Richard J. wrote:
Not surprised though that they still don't actually seem to fully grasp that it's not their anime to do with as they please but hell, they'll never get that one.

Whilst I cannot disagree in any way with that statement, the headlong rush for digital media by the entertainment industry is single-handedly responsible for this attitude. Once you decouple something from a physical, tangible object then it becomes much more difficult to get people to realise that it is still somebody's property. What's more, If I deliberately leave a pile of valuable stuff outside my house and it gets stolen, do you think for one moment the police are going to show any sympathy and waste any time looking for the culprits? No, of course not. But this is exactly what the entertainment industry did when it moved to digital.

In short, you only have yourselves to blame for the current situation. The problem is, of course, that we'll all be losers if the anime industry goes out of business.
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houkoholic



Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 83
Location: Japan
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:57 am Reply with quote
pparker wrote:

The $3.00 "rental" fee from BOST for crappy quality is a non-starter.


The $3.00 for Strike Witches is not a "rental", you get a 480p download with no DRM (ie does not expire) plus a 2 week access to the online stream version. FWIW, CR's offering is at the same price point. Except of course BOST actually did all the translation and subtitling to all of Gonzo's current work released online so IMNSHO they deserve the money more so than CR.

The "crappy" quality is what they were supplied with by Gonzo, since they don't want you to get DVD quality for such a price which gives them little to no profit.

Seriously, anything less than $1.99 for HD is simply not realistic. Show me even an American mainstream TV show, which is way more profitable than anime, for download in HD for that price with NO DRM. The volume anime sells, just judging by how many DVDs they move, simply dictates that it cannot go lower than that price point to be profitable. The only reason Apple etc can do 1.99 is because mainstream entertainment move units in the millions so the lower price point can be justified, whereas no anime can even dream of that kind of sales.
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Stretch2424



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 166
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:19 am Reply with quote
Quote:
...this is exactly what the entertainment industry did when it moved to digital. In short, you only have yourselves to blame for the current situation.


Well, it seems to me that the trend has been that other industries invent new gadgets and technologies then the entertainment industry scrambles to adapt to them. Like when they tried to get VCRs declared illegal. I think if it were up to the industry, they'd like to go back to the pre-VCR days when you either watched something when they broadcast it, or not at all.

A couple days ago I went looking for some old songs on the internet and was pleasantly surprised to find a feature at Amazon.com where you could download them for a mere 99 cents. It was quick and easy, and I said to myself, "why couldn't anime be distributed like this"? These were old 70's tunes, so the demand couldn't have been tremendous--much like anime.

This was a fascinating article and I'd like to thank the people who composed it.
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SalarymanJoe



Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 468
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:11 am Reply with quote
I went back and watched the video and I have to say that I'm glad this video was posted (and I am extremely glad that convention panel videos like this are being posted by Anime News Network). I'm also glad that this panel was even able to happen.

I agree with the panel's summary that if the Industry wants to "beat" fansubs, then it needs to make them moot. I think Sirabella's comment that "Anime sales aren't decreasing [in Japan]" is probably the most tell-tale sign of the huge disconnect between Japanese and North American markets; the Japanese fans continue to pay those prices, while North American ones are roughly half of that and we complain that they're too high.

Kireek wrote:
Bandai have recently got there act together with realeasing a ton of extras with the likes of Harurhi and TTGL.....people don't want DVDs with bare bones rubbish on them. If you give people a reason to buy it they will.


More extras are good, but there are some of us who'd like DVD's of the show just for simply enjoying the show. Speak for yourself when you say "people don't want bare bones rubbish on them" - no, people don't want to spend $25 USD or what the MSRP is now on a single bare-bones DVD. $10 for a really bare-bones (like ImaginAsian's) DVD release, $12 to $15 I think is more than fair for one that's not quite as bare. $50 for a full season boxset is an ideal maximum.

Want to target collectors with higher price-points? Then you need tiered product lines. Yeah, I've bought the SE's or rushed to get them on occasion but for the most part, I buy my anime legitimately on the cheap. Because, to me, it's not worth the high price point that was originally asked.
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Who Is This Guy!?



Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 183
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:18 am Reply with quote
configspace wrote:
enurtsol wrote:
BTW, just a quick thought on this (don't have time to read it thoroughly right now):

Back on the debate days of Neil Nadelman and Trish Ledoux - can a fansubber be a professional translator at the same time, or is that like serving two masters? Confused



(So I've been lurking for some time, mostly the news section; trying to avoid the forums but I guess I'd like to chime in now so someone else can provide more details if available, because I'm curious too)

From what I understand, DB is like that, though their client list is kept confidential for obvious reasons. You may notice they are a real LLC offering translation services.

Likewise Media Blasters has hired fansubbers before and brought over Rurouni Kenshin after John Sirabella watched the fansubs. I've also read that the founder of BOST were also involved with fansubbing (although I think their business model is flawed.. but that's beside the point).

.. and I think tofusensei here is also a real translator (?)

edit:typo

That's much more "under the table." Those kinds of deals are actually best for everyone, but most everyone is kept out of the dark.

Some companies on the other hand simply refuse such services due to their "business ethics", aka, their own misguided sense of justice. Ya know? They simply CAN'T work with "criminals."

It's also that mentality that's creating another, well...crucible of sorts. The hard-core fans who purchase naught but DVDs are taking the same approach, that the fansubbers are "criminals" and the ones who download are "anime terrorists."

Why is it always guys like me who never try to be knights of justice or evil villains who realize that collaboration is the best thing there is? Confused


Last edited by Who Is This Guy!? on Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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crilix



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 208
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:19 am Reply with quote
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced the DTO model is actually seriously flawed. When you consider that Japan recoups production costs for TV anime solely with DVD sales, and the average show reportedly sells 3000 DVD units only, it's apparent that a huge percentage of their anime fan base doesn't buy anime media for every single series.

Let's think for a second; say you have a DVD with 4 episodes selling for $29.95, and if you trim down distributor's share, logistics fees, production costs, print fees, retailer's share, and administrative fees, then the $7.96 value for four DTO episodes is pretty comparable to DVD prices for content alone. If the current spread of DTO for anime is any indication of what the future holds for online anime distribution outside of Japan, then I say that's pretty whack compared to Japan where only so many people own individual shows. The Japanese don't DTO every single episode nor do they buy every single DVD that comes out, they watch TV broadcasts for which producers pay enormous fees (these broadcasts usually have no valuable ads, only incestuous ones like promoting merchandise and DVD releases and sponsors that paid for production).

So at current prices DTO is just a very easy way to sell anime without the hassle of producing and selling DVDs. I'm certain that a bulk of anime fans wouldn't settle for DTO's current prices if that were the way of future same-day worldwide anime releases for most shows airing in Japan. In my view, such releases would have more merit with an open-pricing model. They need to be delivered on a platform that's (going to be) widely known throughout the fandom. The point is, the industry needs to stop relying on mainstream DVD sales because those are gone. Also, companies like FUNimation who are thinking digital should stop with the mindset that one day they'll be able to recoup the dwindling BD/DVD sales with digital. All they need to do is to increase the number of hardcore consumers that will buy their physical products, and that's going to take some serious reeducation on part of both consumers and R1 anime companies. Physical media with extras and merchandise are really the only two ways of reliably selling anime and making a sustainable profit. DTO or advertisement model revenue of today is and will remain as just the topping.
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pparker



Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 1185
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:37 am Reply with quote
houkoholic wrote:
pparker wrote:

The $3.00 "rental" fee from BOST for crappy quality is a non-starter.


The $3.00 for Strike Witches is not a "rental"...

The "crappy" quality is what they were supplied with by Gonzo...

Seriously, anything less than $1.99 for HD is simply not realistic...


I stand corrected. My impression from the site was no download.

As to quality, again, until they match fansubs, they aren't providing a true alternative. The fans can watch either fansubs or legit streams. Which version is better, is the only relevant question to the consumer, assuming a reasonable price point. I won't pay for lower quality myself just as charity to the industry, and I don't imagine the rest of the market will either. (Keep in mind, I do buy the DVDs eventually. I'm talking about digital downloads only.)

I would pay $1.99, just not sure a majority can or will. As to unrealistic prices, there really is no such thing. Economics doesn't care. There is the point where demand and delivery meet. That point either provides a profit to the producer or not. Hopefully, the industry will be able to find those points that work. My opinion is, I don't think we are there yet.
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