Forum - View topicNEWS: Madhouse to Create 4 Anime with Marvel Comic Heroes
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yojimboray
Posts: 108 |
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And I believe your counter-argument is invalid because this discussion sprouted from someone stating that he hoped there would be more future collaboration between manga/anime creators and American comic artists. It is important to note that I was strictly confining my arguments to this category of the storytelling medium.
No, I do not believe anime is a "prime example of diversity." What I actually argued was that manga/anime was richer in diversity in comparison to American comics and animation. And, by richer in diversity, I mean important, "cool" main characters that are not part of that culture's main ethnicity (I listed several examples in a previous post). Again, remember I am stating this in the context of comics and animation. I am fully aware that, in reality, Japan's society is so insular, it cannot even be compared to the diversity and openness of the U.S. However, as I've stated in previous posts, [b]generally speaking[/b], you can find a lot more diverse, well-rounded, non-stereotypical characters in the Japanese product than in the American one. One new example: Son Goku from the anime and manga is a white guy in the live-action movie. What are the chances of Superman being cast as a non-white guy? |
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jsieczka
 Posts: 150 Location: Rochester, NY |
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About as likely as Tony stark being turned into a Latino...wait that was done already. Reading your posts you have several errors: According to Joe Quesada Marvel's main demographic is 18-35 not 17 and under. They actully only publish about 5 titles that are for children. The list of minority main or major charecters for Marvel alone is very high: Iron Man: Director OF S.H.I.E.L.D, Mighty Avengers, X-Factor, Uncanny X-Men, Young X-Men, Invincable Iron-Man, X-Force, Big-Hero Six, Black Panther, War Machine, Cable, Criminal, Footkiller, New Exiles, NYX, Captain America, New Avengers, New Warriors, Powers, Runaways, Samurai: Legend, Thunderbolts, Amazing Spider Man, X-Men Legacy, and every single Ultimate title. |
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yojimboray
Posts: 108 |
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[quote="jsieczka"]
About as likely as Tony stark being turned into a Latino...wait that was done already. Robert Downey , Jr. is not Latino. Believe me, I've been a big fan of his work for years- he's part Scottish, Jewish, and a couple other parts of different European ancestry. As for the other parts of your posts, I can't really respond since I stopped following Marvel/DC stuff many moons ago. All I can tell you is, ask a mainstream American off the street to name an iconic character in comics or cartoons that is not caucasian and they probably won't be able to. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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So? There's still plenty of comic characters that aren't necessarily typical white males or females. Are a lot of the iconic characters? Sure, but you have to recognize that most of these characters were devised during a time when racism was still very prevalent in the country, and the primary audience for these comics were young, white teenagers who resided in suburbia. I don't see that great of diversity in Japanese anime or manga either, but rather characters who are ambiguous in nature. Frankly, I don't consider that diversity in the least, but rather just an avoidance of the element altogether.
Other than that, jsieczka made a number of valid points, so frankly, I'm still not buying your complaints. Particularly since collaborations would simply result in another genre or sub-genre that you could choose not to view if you didn't want to. It's highly doubtful, if not impossible, that Marvel or DC is going to take over anime and manga. Chances are any funds required to even bring these projects to life would come from the US companies anyways, so it wouldn't really even eat the budget of the traditional anime and manga shows you care for. Luckily it's a free world where you can make your own choices, so you can easily just not watch these shows instead of complain that they'd even get made. |
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yojimboray
Posts: 108 |
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[quote="Keonyn"]So? There's still plenty of comic characters that aren't necessarily typical white males or females. Are a lot of the iconic characters? Sure, but you have to recognize that most of these characters were devised during a time when racism was still very prevalent in the country, and the primary audience for these comics were young, white teenagers who resided in suburbia. I don't see that great of diversity in Japanese anime or manga either, but rather characters who are ambiguous in nature. Frankly, I don't consider that diversity in the least, but rather just an avoidance of the element altogether.
"Sigh." I think we should just agree to disagree. But Before I sign off on this topic, I'd Like to address your main point... Yes, there are a lot of comic book characters that are non-white- Tonto (the Lone Ranger's intrepid sidekick), Kato (the Green Hornet's intrepid sidekick), Wong (Dr. Strange's intrepid man-servant)- but, I challenge you to name ONE iconic, non-caucasian character in the class of Superman , Batman, Spider-Man, etc. You argue that that iconic American characters were created in a time racism was prevalent and that these creations were aimed at the ethnic majority (white). I completely agree with you. However, I'd argue that Japan's current real-world society exists in what could could be called at least a somewhat racist state, and yet, the manga and anime they produce is far more progressive than American comics- Here are some examples of iconic non-Japanese characters in manga/anime- Roy Fokker (Macross), Maximillian Jenius (Macross), Scott Bernard (Mospeada), Gatz (Berserk), Nadia (Nadia: Secret of Blue Water)... I can go on for much longer but I hope you get the idea of what I'm getting at. |
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Servant of the Path
 Posts: 90 Location: United States |
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Well, I'm not certain if this post was a response to mine but just in case I'd like to respond to it.
Over the years I have seen a great many movies and television shows both popular (well marketed) and unpopular and comparing movies to movies and television to television I can't agree that they are more or less the same as anime in terms of variety. If, however, you are intent on making the assumption that I haven't seen much out-of-the-way American TV and movie productions then I think it would be just as reasonable to assume that my perception of anime has been largely formed by my exposure to the more popular and widely known series. If that's the case it would appear that you're essentially saying that I'm comparing the most popular productions from Japan and the most popular from America. Such a comparison would lead me to the same conclusion that I began with; that there is much greater diversity in storytelling to be found in anime.
First off, I would like to state clearly that in any comparison of Japanese entertainment to American productions I am not including novels and I believe any attempt to compare even American novels to American television and movies in any manner that suggests the two have parity with one another would be catastrophically flawed. Secondly, you mention the stereotypical shounen series, harem anime and yaoi but these sub-genres are a fair example of what I was referring to in my original post. Where is the American equivalent of the harem anime? What about yaoi? Saying that there is much greater variety in anime than there is in American television is not the same thing as saying that anime doesn't include highly derivative, cookie-cutter series. There are no absolutes here and there are exceptions to every rule. My point is that anime isn't limited by the same kinds of boundaries that American television is and that ultimately leads to greater variety. Over the years, there have been many perfectly fine dramas produced in the US. House, E.R., etc.. are all fine shows but they suffer from pretty much the same limitations that just about all dramas in the US do. You've got your basic "cop" drama, "lawyer" drama and "hospital" drama. That's pretty much it. And all of the characters basically end up dancing around all of the same kinds of conflicts. Like set-pieces tailored to what the audience is expected to absorb there's little imagination or creativity involved. There isn't simply a repetition between, for example, one "hospital" drama and the next, there's a severe limit across the contexts within which those dramas are presented. I think that a lot of the disparity in variety of story type and execution between anime and American TV lies in a disparity between what level of suspension of disbelief the audience is willing and expected to accept. Here in America it is as if stories will only be accepted by the public so long as the experiences their characters face are immediately accessible to the viewer. If the scenarios and conflicts presented are not something that the viewer can immediately identify with then the story is largely rejected. What that leaves us with are stories with characters that are forced to operate within a necessarily and extraordinarily confined narrative framework. Of course, maybe the public can accept something more imaginative and unique but if that's so we'll probably never know it because I think that shows will continue to be produced to play down to the expectation that the public will not accept it. And I think that's ubiquitous, from the simplest shows aimed at the youngest toddlers to those aimed at the oldest demographic in our society. While anime certainly can, and does, in some cases, operate under a similar model it really doesn't have many qualms about breaking through those barriers.
And have you not considered that it may take bias against anime or for American entertainment to even claim that they are essentially the same by the metrics of this discussion? Often when I encounter your reaction it comes across as an attempt to bend over backwards to paint the two as being the same for the sake of fairness and in the pursuit of even-handed objectivity. Those are certainly fine virtues but I wonder sometimes if the attempt isn't more of a grasp at some form of egalitarianism meant to correct some perceived anti-American attitude on the part of anyone who might suggest that anime is "better" than American shows. To give the benefit of the doubt, I don't think any amount of striving for equality between anime and American TV is going to be helpful if it leads us to ignore the differences between the two that really exist. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I'm actually inclined to agree with you on this. I think you stated very well what I've felt are really the differences in anime that drew me to it and away from a lot of American TV.
It's not that I don't watch any American TV. I do watch Lost, Heroes, and I even have my one cop show Life which my sister got me into watching. But generally I have a distaste for the constant CSIs and hospital dramas that seem so pervasive. I also don't really like reality TV at all. There have been some fairly interesting science fiction shows but they get cancelled more often than not. I think the nice thing about anime is that the narrative backgrounds are considerably more diverse. They do require a greater level of suspension of disbelief though, and I think this is probably why anime is a bit more niche. Unlike you I actually think that American TV creators are right about the nature of the public as a rule. Most people I find don't like anime at the outset because "it's a cartoon" but also because "it's weird." I tried to explain Fullmetal Alchemist to my mother for example, and the whole concept just was too far outside her expectations. That + the cartoon bit makes anime a real impossibility for her, while I like it and both of my siblings do as well. I find that she is probably the average on this issue. All said I have always been a big fan of fantasy and science fiction so I think anime was a natural progression of that. And it's an area that American TV lacks for me personally, with a few exceptions that come out every few years. I think anime fans are overzealous to outright insult American media on the whole. It really is a matter of different tastes. I don't think someone can really say it's "better" universally, though I can certainly say it's better for me. And I like it enough that of course I'm going to try to promote it somewhat. I think that's just natural. |
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14756 |
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Heh, as they say, anime is all about high school shows.
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