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Henry Jones



Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 97
Location: Nebraska
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:33 am Reply with quote
Shadowrun20XX wrote:
Once again,awesome Hahn avi,Henry.



Thank you!
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kittycatgirl2k



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 57
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:51 am Reply with quote
I LOVED Alisia Dragoon back in the day. I bought it shortly after it came out because of the cover art alone (I was totally into fantasy - dungeons and dragons type themes) and just adored the game. If I recall though, it was a fairly difficult title, but I loved having a pet dragon that flew around and killed stuff for me. My mom used to play this game alot too and would lament that they never made a sequel or anything similiar.

Also have fond memories of El Viento, Earnest Evans and many other games that were brought to the US through Renovations. Traysia and Master of Monsters anyone??
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:54 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
Quote:
Edit: oh, and Mario 64 IS innovative.


No, it's just Super Mario World in 3-D. That Musashi game gave me more than M64, and it wasn't even "fully" 3-d.


That's a pretty liberal use of the word "just". I generally prefer to reserve it for things that are minor and in my view taking a 2-D side scrolling platformer and turning it into one of the first fully 3rd games (where the focus is often more towards exploration rather than progressing in a linear direction) isn't really minor.

Perhaps you could explain if you disagree and maybe provide examples of what would then be innovative.
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vtnwesley



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Natrona Heights, PA
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:43 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
GATSU wrote:
Quote:
Edit: oh, and Mario 64 IS innovative.


No, it's just Super Mario World in 3-D. That Musashi game gave me more than M64, and it wasn't even "fully" 3-d.


That's a pretty liberal use of the word "just". I generally prefer to reserve it for things that are minor and in my view taking a 2-D side scrolling platformer and turning it into one of the first fully 3rd games (where the focus is often more towards exploration rather than progressing in a linear direction) isn't really minor.

Perhaps you could explain if you disagree and maybe provide examples of what would then be innovative.


I actually chose to leave this one alone. When I am talking to someone who is bias and/or just doesn't know what is what, it's pointless. Mario 64 is clearly innovative for a laundry list of reasons that many games still can't match. Furthermore, calling Sonic Adventure a good game (or innovative), while ignoring the merits of M64 is misguided. Sonic Adventure is a textbook example of games that don't match up to what makes a 3-D platformer good, while M64 handled it with grace. I couldnt go into mario 64 properly without writing a 20 page report on it. Likewise, What is WRONG with Sonic Adventure (and I say this as a Sonic fan) would also merit a very large and multifaceted explanation. Not to mention, outside of the "talking to a wall" factor of what this guy seems to have to say, I don't think it matters. I had my fun with both games, as well as Megaman Legends 1 and 2.
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NightHedgehog



Joined: 01 May 2004
Posts: 38
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:57 am Reply with quote
Considering the Legends characters have had an appearance in almost everything, I highly doubt it means anything other than fanservice. Heck, Tron was playable in Marvel vs. Capcom 2 and that was near to a decade ago.
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Monster in a box



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 671
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:34 pm Reply with quote
vtnwesley wrote:
ikillchicken wrote:
GATSU wrote:
Quote:
Edit: oh, and Mario 64 IS innovative.


No, it's just Super Mario World in 3-D. That Musashi game gave me more than M64, and it wasn't even "fully" 3-d.


That's a pretty liberal use of the word "just". I generally prefer to reserve it for things that are minor and in my view taking a 2-D side scrolling platformer and turning it into one of the first fully 3rd games (where the focus is often more towards exploration rather than progressing in a linear direction) isn't really minor.

Perhaps you could explain if you disagree and maybe provide examples of what would then be innovative.


I actually chose to leave this one alone. When I am talking to someone who is bias and/or just doesn't know what is what, it's pointless. Mario 64 is clearly innovative for a laundry list of reasons that many games still can't match. Furthermore, calling Sonic Adventure a good game (or innovative), while ignoring the merits of M64 is misguided. Sonic Adventure is a textbook example of games that don't match up to what makes a 3-D platformer good, while M64 handled it with grace. I couldnt go into mario 64 properly without writing a 20 page report on it. Likewise, What is WRONG with Sonic Adventure (and I say this as a Sonic fan) would also merit a very large and multifaceted explanation. Not to mention, outside of the "talking to a wall" factor of what this guy seems to have to say, I don't think it matters. I had my fun with both games, as well as Megaman Legends 1 and 2.


Sonic Adventure is better than every 2D, and 3D Sonic game, is one of the best looking games ever made, and has one of the best soundtracks ever (it's only major shortcoming being some of the dialogue, and it being unskippable) . The same can be said of Mario 64, though to a lesser extent.

Smile
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LordPrometheus





PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:46 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I should point out though, it's still technically within the Megaman canon timeline. It isn't an alternate universe at all. It's in the distant future. long after the X, Zero, and ZX series come to a close.


Really?? I never knew that. That's kind of cool. Smile

I'm trying to find MML 1 and 2 on ebay for a reasonable price for my PS2. I want to bring back some memories.
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ChronoBall X



Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 389
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:57 pm Reply with quote
kittycatgirl2k wrote:
I LOVED Alisia Dragoon back in the day. I bought it shortly after it came out because of the cover art alone (I was totally into fantasy - dungeons and dragons type themes) and just adored the game. If I recall though, it was a fairly difficult title, but I loved having a pet dragon that flew around and killed stuff for me. My mom used to play this game alot too and would lament that they never made a sequel or anything similiar.

Also have fond memories of El Viento, Earnest Evans and many other games that were brought to the US through Renovations. Traysia and Master of Monsters anyone??


Especially the Mugen Senshi Valis games from the MSX and later ported to Sharp,NES,Genesis and the TurboGrafx CD(Best versions)although the Turbo Grafx version of Valis 2 had bad animation and poor voice acting,but the gameplay was still adictive.

as for the Y'S games,yeah,it's not the best looking RPG series,but still holds an addictive fond of being one of the better RPG series from Falcom(who also made Popful Mail),yes the Y'S series's difficulty is tediouse at times especially Y'S 1,2 and 4,which the gameplay had you crosscutting the enemies to kill them in a certain angle playing chicken,my first Y's game was the Super Nes version of Y'S III wanderers of Y'S(oh god that awful boxart nearly turned me off it.Anime hyper),but hey alot of bad boxart back than turned most of us off Anime-style games,and I also own Y'S 6: Arc of napishtim fot Playstation 2 and the PSP port.
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vtnwesley



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Natrona Heights, PA
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:37 pm Reply with quote
Monster in a box wrote:
vtnwesley wrote:
I actually chose to leave this one alone. When I am talking to someone who is bias and/or just doesn't know what is what, it's pointless. Mario 64 is clearly innovative for a laundry list of reasons that many games still can't match. Furthermore, calling Sonic Adventure a good game (or innovative), while ignoring the merits of M64 is misguided. Sonic Adventure is a textbook example of games that don't match up to what makes a 3-D platformer good, while M64 handled it with grace. I couldnt go into mario 64 properly without writing a 20 page report on it. Likewise, What is WRONG with Sonic Adventure (and I say this as a Sonic fan) would also merit a very large and multifaceted explanation. Not to mention, outside of the "talking to a wall" factor of what this guy seems to have to say, I don't think it matters. I had my fun with both games, as well as Megaman Legends 1 and 2.


Sonic Adventure is better than every 2D, and 3D Sonic game, is one of the best looking games ever made, and has one of the best soundtracks ever (it's only major shortcoming being some of the dialogue, and it being unskippable) . The same can be said of Mario 64, though to a lesser extent.

Smile


I actually like Sonic Adventure a lot, but that is a bit overzealous. SA1 isn't even the best anything within the Sonic series. The graphics at the time were fairly impressive, but they made a few mistakes. First the frame rate was all over the map. They never locked it down. This makes what shouls be a speedy and smooth running game look slow and chunky. It junks between 20 and 40 frames per second. Not good. For the hardware it was on, amongst other details, I feel it was a tad too blocky, this however is highly subjective. Most important, SA1 is probably one of the glitchiest platforms I've ever played. Sonic does a lot of gravity defying like running on walls and around loops. At random the game sometimes doesn't hold sonic onto these platforms even when it should resulting in needlessly annoying gameplay. Some of the secondary playable characters ruin the the game too. There is a lot of good to be had in SA1 but even as a Sonic fan, I get a little sick to my stomach when I hear things like "best game ever" or whatever. There is a lot of good there too like soundtrack, Sonic, neat boss fights, fairly functional snow boarding level (perhaps a first for a non-snowboarding game?), etc. Super Mario 64 has no such downsides, and what few glitches there are take work to find. They do not break typical gameplay.

Personally, I think Sonic Heroes is the best looking/playing 3-D sonic, even if it is kinda weird.

LordPrometheus wrote:
Quote:
I should point out though, it's still technically within the Megaman canon timeline. It isn't an alternate universe at all. It's in the distant future. long after the X, Zero, and ZX series come to a close.


Really?? I never knew that. That's kind of cool. Smile

I'm trying to find MML 1 and 2 on ebay for a reasonable price for my PS2. I want to bring back some memories.


I thought it was neat too. It takes a while to see the tie in. You should definitely pay attention to the plot in the Zero, ZX, and Legends games... or read Wikipedia. I really like how it ties together and wish they'd at some point focus on the "series connector stories" i.e. what happened between Megaman 8 and X1, and X5 to Zero, etc.
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crossbred900



Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:15 pm Reply with quote
METALLIC
UNIFRAME
SUPER
HYBRID
ARMOR

I loved this game. I bought it at a pawn shop years ago. It was so hard, but I could never stop playing it. Now I'm jealous of your figure.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:19 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken:
Quote:
I generally prefer to reserve it for things that are minor and in my view taking a 2-D side scrolling platformer and turning it into one of the first fully 3rd games (where the focus is often more towards exploration rather than progressing in a linear direction) isn't really minor


You can get exploration in other Mario games, including the RPG one. The fact of the matter is that, other than being in 3-d, 64 offered nothing new. And my point is proven by the fact that Nintendo lost the console war of the mid-90s. Well, came in second after SEGA, if you want to be more accurate. Super Mario Sunshine was so much better, but everyone hated it, because they were too lazy to learn to operate a rocket. Rolling Eyes

vtw:
Quote:
Mario 64 is clearly innovative for a laundry list of reasons that many games still can't match.


If you never played Mario RPG, Mario World, or Wario, then sure.

Quote:
Sonic Adventure is a textbook example of games that don't match up to what makes a 3-D platformer good, while M64 handled it with grace.


What are you talking about? It was fast, and it required timing and strategy. Why would those elements be "undesirable" in a platform?

Quote:
The graphics at the time were fairly impressive, but they made a few mistakes. First the frame rate was all over the map. They never locked it down. This makes what shouls be a speedy and smooth running game look slow and chunky. It junks between 20 and 40 frames per second. Not good.


Well, given that it looks better than a DS port of 64, I think you're just exaggerating the slowdown.

Quote:
Most important, SA1 is probably one of the glitchiest platforms I've ever played. Sonic does a lot of gravity defying like running on walls and around loops. At random the game sometimes doesn't hold sonic onto these platforms even when it should resulting in needlessly annoying gameplay


Have you played Majora's Mask?
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ChronoBall X



Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 389
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:45 pm Reply with quote
Super Mario 64 was an innovative game indeed and my first N64 game I owned when I first got my N64 in 1998,another cool innovative game I bought that same year was Bomberman Hero for the N64

unlike most Bomberman games where your running around in a maze to dispose of blocks and enemies to reach the exit,this one was more like a 3-D platformer which was a cross between Super mario 64 and crash bandicoot where this time Bomberman can run jump in the air and throw bombs in the air,I loved that game.



Last edited by ChronoBall X on Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:10 am; edited 5 times in total
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vtnwesley



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Natrona Heights, PA
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:47 pm Reply with quote
Gatsu

Quote:
You can get exploration in other Mario games, including the RPG one. The fact of the matter is that, other than being in 3-d, 64 offered nothing new. And my point is proven by the fact that Nintendo lost the console war of the mid-90s. Well, came in second after SEGA, if you want to be more accurate. Super Mario Sunshine was so much better, but everyone hated it, because they were too lazy to learn to operate a rocket. Rolling Eyes


Mario 64 had various elements that made it important. The first functional 3-D platformer period. Well put together. Fun to play. Attractive. Better graphics than anything previously seen on a console and anything for years to come. First time that environments were reused in a (relatively) meaningful way (i.e. multiple goals in each stage). The best 3-D camera... maybe ever. Keep in mind, Sega floundered for an entire generation with the Saturn to get a 3-D Sonic. They couldn't do it at all, then with SA1 produced something good-but-not-great. On the PS1 companies tried with good results, but nothing like M64. No one is arguing Crash Bandicoot's non-free-roaming 3-D action is the same achievement. You should probably keep in mind, M64 basically built the 3-D platformer genre. Almost all good 3-D platformers borrow much of the ideas behind its design. Even SA1. Regardless of whether you personally enjoyed it or not, you should understand it's place in history.

Nintendo didn't lose the the fifth generation console war because of their games not being good enough or mario 64 being bad. Mario 64 and all of their games earned them number 1 for the first year and kept them going strong for a while after. They lost that generation because their didn't play nice with third parties, had a very hard console to code for, used cartridges instead of CDs, and their hardware could not do 2-D graphics in any meaningful way. First year N64 owners are a lot like first year Dreamcast owners. Very very lucky people. Some of the greatest games ever made are on those 2 systems, and a lot of people missed out.

I actually agree with you on Mario Sunshine to a degree. While not better than M64, it's much better than people give it credit for. They probably shouldn't have given the water pump a voice, and a few stages were a little broken, but the game overall is quite good. People seem to write off the Gamecube as a whole like that too, which is unfair.

In regards to SA1, I'm not sure what kind of awesome strategy element SA1 has verses any other game. It's just a solid platformer with a few issues. The camera being finicky, the glitches that occasionally dropped Sonic into pits for no reason, the lack of smoothness, and the weird alternate characters all hinder the experience. If you overlook some of that, as I did, you'll get a ton of fun out of it. The platforming is quite good, neat boss fights, etc. These days I just find those issue hard to swallow. I got a ton of gameplay out of it before I got sick of it. I got my moneys worth.

I know Majora's Mask has some issues. I don't know when they thought that frame rate was acceptable, but it's REALLY bad. I won't justify the things Sega is weak at with the things other companies are weak at. That is like saying "Nintendo got away with it, so Sega can too!" Obviously, I don't think that. I like me some Nintendo, but I'm no fanboy. They make their own share of mistakes. Most of Sonic Teams and Sega Studio platformers have frame rate problems to the point of issue. It's now a long ongoing problem. After Sonic Heroes, it was finally enough for me. Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic next gen, and Secret Rings were all basically spitting in the face of the Sonic fans, as they have all the same issues, and they also aren't terribly fun. I think the best platformer they made in 3-D was probably Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg of all games. It suffered from their problems the least and the game was basically designed to accent the things Sonic Team did WELL.

I never played Majora's Mask to begin with. When I tried it for the first time I was rather appalled, which is a shame, because the actual content/gameplay looked pretty good.

I also won't bother comparing SA1 to a portable game, though there is nothing wrong with Mario 64 DS either. SA1 is a speed driven platformer with a few issues on a quality 6th gen console, and mario 64 ds is a slower paced platformer with fewer action elements and more exploration with no real issues on a portable. It's apples and oranges.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:33 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Mario 64 had various elements that made it important. The first functional 3-D platformer period.


I guess you forgot about Jumping Flash.

Quote:
Fun to play.


If you enjoyed having to memorize a Jaguar controller wannabe, sure.

Quote:
Attractive. Better graphics than anything previously seen on a console and anything for years to come.


Going to disagree and instead argue that Shen Mue fits that profile.

Quote:
Keep in mind, Sega floundered for an entire generation with the Saturn to get a 3-D Sonic. They couldn't do it at all,


They could do it, as proven by the DC, but chose to focus on games which would actually sell.

Quote:
then with SA1 produced something
good-but-not-great.


Well, yeah, if you ignore the fact that the last Wii Mario game owes much of its approach to SA1...

Quote:
On the PS1 companies tried with good results, but nothing like M64. No one is arguing Crash Bandicoot's non-free-roaming 3-D action is the same achievement.


No, but they're arguing you got more depth in entertainment out of a game which ironically had less physical depth.

Quote:
Almost all good 3-D platformers borrow much of the ideas behind its design. Even SA1.


So when exactly did Mario fish and hunt for treasure? Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Nintendo didn't lose the the fifth generation console war because of their games not being good enough or mario 64 being bad.


No, they just weren't exciting. When Nintendo has to resort to a cursing squirrel to get attention, you know it lost its name power.

Quote:
First year N64 owners are a lot like first year Dreamcast owners. Very very lucky people. Some of the greatest games ever made are on those 2 systems, and a lot of people missed out.


Gonna agree with you on the DC, not the N64, unless you think furry platformers and first-person shooters are the height of quality.
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vtnwesley



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Natrona Heights, PA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:34 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
Previous post, look up


All of that stuff is selective and subjective (or simply biased).

Jumping Flash is a first person shooter and furthermore isn't good. Yes, it had a platforming element to it, but it's still an FPS. It got a lot of things wrong in gameplay as well.

The Jaguar controller didn't do anything. It was a 3 button Genesis pad with a phone dial pad on it. The N64 controller introduced analog, and was generally comfortable to use (if weird as all crap). They later introduced rumble as well.

I can't speak about Shenmue, but Super Mario 64 had a specific focus on making things look good and move fluidly. Mario movements were extremely dynamic and less robotic than much of that eras games.

Sega tried throughout that era for a 3-D Sonic game with 2 different teams. Neither group could produce one. The closest we got was Nights, which as cool as it is, isn't a Sonic game.

Nintendo didn't do Conker's Bad Furday. That was all Rare. They decided they didn't want the game getting lost amid the tons of "cute character platformers". Their relationship with Nintendo from what I understand was also in decline. So instead of a cute little "Twelve Tales: Conker 64", they retooled it into a M rated potty-humor title we all know today. If Nintendo had WANTED that kind of thing, they would have acknowledged the game in ads or where ever else. They really just unceremoniously dumped it to market and never really spoke of it again.

I assure you, I'm the biggest critic of the N64 there is. When I heard for technical reasons why I wouldn't be seeing many RPGs or fighting games on it, I was rather ticked to say the least. Cute platformers and FPS titles CAN be good and N64 has a lot of good ones. It also has some decent games of other genres too like racing, puzzle, sports, etc. They even managed to squeak in one or two oddities like Paper Mario, Killer Instinct, Pokemon Snap, and Wipeout 64 (weird as it was a franchise supposed to be exclusive to the PS1). There is plenty to like on the N64, including a good deal of games you seem to have completely written off. That said, for a while, I missed the SNES days where the best of everything was unconditionally all in one place. Good times...

You can be a grumpy fanboy if you want, because Nintendo's relative failure during that time will vindicate you even if you don't fully grasp the "hows and whys" of it all or refuse to accept the good that came with the bad. I know I could spend hours ripping apart the PS1 and 2 for their hardware choices. I don't, because I bought em both anyway for the games on them that are good despite hardware issues. Even a real piece like the PS1 has ample good things about it. If it didn't, no one would buy it... kind of like the aforementioned Atari Jaguar which really didn't have anything redeeming about it, including the games. No one bought that monstrosity.
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