Forum - View topicChicks on Anime [2008-09-23]
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Wow. Started off with beta males, finished off with hikikomoris. Sure touched upon a lot of topics.
But really, the Japanese society needs to take a leaf out of Denmark's book. Actually, I'm sure the Danes would let them borrow the entire manual on "How to be a happy, caring nation." If Japan actually paid people to be mothers and fathers, and put in place guidelines and programs to help get people back into work, then their population growth would explode. Actually, I wonder if that would be a good thing. Japan has more than a third of the population of America, yet approximately 1/30 of the land area. It is already very overcrowded; are we sure that they want any more people just yet? |
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Big Hed
 Posts: 1607 Location: Melbourne, Australia |
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Japan could borrow a similar book from Singapore, which is currently finishing up a successful growth program. Having said that, I absolutely don't think that Japan needs to grow its population. More people is the last thing the world needs at the moment, and all post-industrial nations should be striving to reduce their birth rates.
Having said that, if the population decline in Japan is primarily a symptom of the disparity between the desired social dynamic and what is actually happening there, then that's not good. I've been aware long enough that Japan produces an especially large quantity of escapist culture, but I never associated that with real social problems. I think a lot of the causes for these problems are also exhibited in anime, though (ie gendered schools, salarymen), which gives some idea of the scope of social breakdown. Then again, as was pointed out in the discussion, the beta-male stereotype which is perhaps a symptom a larger social issue in Japan has only popped up in the last 15 years or so; back in the 80s, one gets the impression that the alpha-male was favored by Japanese men. So are mediums like anime actually just contributing to the problem by promoting the beta stereotype, or was it always there in reality, and animation companies simply realized later that they could make more money pandering directly to the fantasies of such people? Also -- fifty grand a month?!  That's insane, and really a fascinating glimpse into the nature of the Japanese "escapist" industry, especially since from the sounds of it, so many of these guys' clients are host girls/prostitutes. That I think more than anything is indicative of some kind of social breakdown.
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Animerican14
 Posts: 963 Location: Saint Louis, MO |
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Wait, Denmark's government pays people to be parents? WTH? And yeah...I already knew about how there was a decline in birth rates in Japan (aren't there billboards that basically tell you to make babies?) and a bit about the salaryman-wife relationship. I think that's what sensei told us a couple years back), but haven't thought too much of it before. Perfect the way it was put it in the context of a pop culture than includes hentai and dating sims. Though, like dtm42 is saying, it might be a bit too soon to really get to worrying about that, isn't it? After all, as most people seem to say: more people>>>>fewer resources + more carbon emissions>>>>global warming>>>>the DEATH OF HUMANITY. (I'm not too sure how sarcastic I may or may not be here....) Maybe more will be done to encourage foreigners to come and live there? Although Japanese culture has alway liked being real homogeneous, hasn't it... |
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Kimiko_0
 Posts: 1796 Location: Leiden, NL, EU |
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Wow, this installment just swerved all over the place, didn't it?
I'm still surprised by how people can take a few random facts about some extremes and characterize a whole society by them. It's like that old trope of aliens watching TV broadcasts from Earth and completely misunderstanding what human life is like. Anime fans often say how they want to learn all about Japanese culture and language, but in practice it seems they're more interested in maintaining their prejudice of Japan as wacky and exotic and incomprehensible. One small detail I wanted to comment on separately; Casey, you wrote
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yblees
 Posts: 165 Location: New Zealand |
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I think "social breakdown" may be too strong a word. IMO Japan has problems associated with high population densities & overcrowding - but not more so than say India, or most of South East Asia (yes, Singapore inclueded
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The Japanese are just better than most at expressing this through the medium of manga/anime. And plenty of manga/anime does deal with these issues - so it's not totally escapism (go watch hindi movies for escapism ... LOL) The japanese people I've met have been happy, well adjusted people for whom manga/anime & dating sims are not that big a deal. I think I've met more angsty geeks on anime and manga forums - and as the ladies have pointed out - most geeks have more life than you might think. And no, I've never met any so-called "dominant" japanese or asian males (now Austrian?, yes - and he was an utter ASS and a real bully). Older men are more confident in dealing with others, but that's probably true for all cultures. |
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Vash6905
 Posts: 6 Location: Southeastern Oklahoma - Tracking a huge buck |
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What I understand is that low birth rates may not be a problem now, but from what I've read Japan has a large population of elderly people that will need replaceing in 15-20 years.
Oh and fyi this will be a big problem in the US when all the Baby Boomers start hitting retirement age. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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They get paid parental leave. Basically, when a couple have a baby and wish to take time off work, the Government will pay them their salary even though they are not "working" anymore. These payments typically go on for six months, and can be paid to either the mother or the father, or both. This means that the father can stay home and look after the child if he wants to. Or they can both stay home. Employers are also forced to keep a person's job vacant while they are on leave, and let them continue working in their exact same job should they wish to return after their leave. They are also not allowed to discriminate against people who wish to take leave. How's that for flexibility? Sounds like a utopia, doesn't it? So yeah, the Government there - for all intents and purposes - pays people to be parents, by removing all the traditional barriers to taking time off to be a parent. People still get paid their normal salary, and they still have a job to go back to. Which means that Danish kids are happy and healthy, and Danish parents are able to pursue both work and family as they wish. The result? A pretty healthy, very happy nation. Perhaps not an economic powerhouse, but nonetheless a much better place to raise a family than Japan or the United States. So how does this tie into this column? Well, good families means a strong social fabric, which also translates into well-adjusted kids and stress-free adults. Which translates into a society that doesn't rely on escapism as a coping mechanism. Hikikomoris escape from society and other people, while those who go to Cosplay Cafes or Host(ess) clubs escape from stress or insecurity. Eh, just my opinions, as usual. Disclaimer: I do not actually live in Denmark; I watched a documentary (or it might have been Sixty Minutes) on how the Danes are the happiest people in the western world. Needless to say, I was very impressed. Last edited by dtm42 on Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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maichips
 Posts: 96 |
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Then again, it also depends on the environment you're in. I chose to go my freshman year to a college that would be cheap and close to home. Sadly, I didn't look into the characteristics of the student body and ended up in an environment filled with jocks. Since I entered this school, I've definitely developed at least a few hikikomori tendencies. For example, I stay in my room when I'm not in class or at the cafeteria, unlike others who go out with friends, party, and have fun outside. The only other "nerd" I've met is (luckily) my roommate, but she's definitely not into the fandom like I am. So, once again: it all depends on environment. If I had others of similar interests and mindsets to hang with, I would definitely get out more... Then again, to an American otaku, it might seem strange that Japanese otaku are reluctant to be together. From what I know (which isn't a lot), there are more anime otaku in Japan than in America (or at least a higher percentage), therefore shouldn't they make a little more effort to connect rather than becoming hikikomori? I suppose it's more of an American mentality that close socialization is expected, no matter what group you hail from... |
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kadian1364
 Posts: 60 Location: Indiana |
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I sometimes see this contrary statement made in other discussions attempting to analyze Japanese society. However, I have yet to see any evidence to support the notion that these views on the status of women, the escapist pop-culture, the seeming social chasm between the sexes, are resultant of widespread ignorance and uncultured generalizations on the part of us Americans. I'd just wish our friend Kimiko_O would point out the instances where our esteemed writers erred, so we all can better understand, instead of (ironically) making a sweeping statement about how they were completely wrong. |
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Whoisthatguy?! An idiot
Posts: 16 |
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I didn't know you did in-depth analytic research on Japanese culture. Last edited by Whoisthatguy?! An idiot on Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Some Guy
 Posts: 135 |
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I agree with this, if you are going to be making commentary on a nations society and culture it is very important to have someone well learned in said culture. With reguars to that quote, I think it is important to not take the quote to much out of context, the way Casey was using it was as a means to describe "beta males", not call those properties bad. Let me talk about the actual column for a second. I think it is important keep the topic focused on anime, not the role of men and woman in society. I get enough of that in my college english class. I just feel like the conversation very quickly change from the role of "alpha" and "beta" male in anime to how men and woman interact in Japanese society. Again, I have my college english classes for that (can you believe I study mechanical engineering...). |
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Whoisthatguy?! An idiot
Posts: 16 |
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Are you from RPGchat? Beta Male at least according to pack rank is a very insulting term. Kind of seems like they turn these articles into see how "Superior the west is to the east?" It may not be the intent, but that's how they come off to me. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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That's not what I'm getting from it at all. If it was more hostile and not as analytical, maybe I would agree with you, but the supporting arguments seem to go a long ways. I don't see this column being pro-west and anti-east at all, heck, last weeks column could also be seen as going the other way. I think some people are just being oversensitive here, something that is actually becoming far too common in the US.
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Whoisthatguy?! An idiot
Posts: 16 |
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Considering you took the most extreme example of Japanese culture and used them as an example of the entirety of Japan I'd say I am far more accurate than you give me credit for. And I did not get that in the last article at all considering both forms of animation were criticized perhaps you are the one being oversensitive. Also, I'd say it's a fair assertion that Furry culture is a perfect representation of modern America culture since we are taking extremes and making them the face of the country. After all, we do have a plethora of sexual fetishes and social circles that cater to those fetishes. Furry conventions followed by nights of sexual acts in furry costumes. Last edited by Whoisthatguy?! An idiot on Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:32 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Rednal
Posts: 132 |
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Hey, they mentioned Zettai Karen Children.
 Glad to know it's at least moderately popular. Muscle Okama is... weird... but really made me laugh the first time he showed up. The show also manages minor lolicon without being distasteful; comedy, more than much else. Children wanting the only real father figure they've known to notice and praise them. I recommend it to anyone who hasn't yet seen it.
As for my own social relationships, they're minimal. There's only one friend whose house I visit at all, much less on a regular basis, and any other otaku-types I know are generally just conversations wherever I meet them. I like to interact with such people sometimes, but primarily, I like to watch anime alone and on my own time or with a larger group of people (Gundam 00 at my local convention earlier this year comes to mind; that was quite fun, though what with the technical issues I wouldn't want to do it every day). Seriously, just give me a season set or whatever, and I'm happy for awhile. Online, I suppose it's a little different. I DO like to give back, which is why I've done scanlation work. Nothing licensed (at least, not to my knowledge), since I don't really feel that's right, but I do feel that it is a way for other people to enjoy what I do. I don't feel very guilty about it, either; my personal manga collection is over 150 volumes. Mostly, I read online what I can't buy at the store. |
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