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NEWS: Bandai Cracks Down on Bootleggers at Anime Expo


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marcyu



Joined: 01 Jan 2004
Posts: 28
Location: Destin, Florida
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:40 am Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
marcyu wrote:

The last really popular show in Japan that was fully digisubbed before coming into the US was Love Hina - the ICV2 2002 Anime Product of the Year. It is Bandai's best selling title to date besides Gundam Wing (which coincidentally had a run on Cartoon Network - something Love Hina didn't have the advantage of).


Ummm... nooo.. not even close.. Ghost in the shell: standalone complex season 1 is fully subbed, has been for a couple of months, and it's not out here yet. I've had Comic Party since around the same time it aired in Japan and it's only been here a couple of months. There are plenty of other examples such as that. Just because YOU aren't aware that a show hasn't been fansubbed doesn't mean it hasn't. There are hundreds of fansub sites out there, and they all love to get the whole series subbed before it's licensed.


I know about the titles you mentioned I'm talking about a number one show. Love Hina is still very popular in Japan. The titles you mentioned are second tier:

http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/

We're talking about top 5 shows like Naruto, Prince of Tennis (unfortunately, sports anime's haven't done well here), Maria-Sama, Pokemon, and Soukyuu no Fafner.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:53 am Reply with quote
marcyu wrote:

We're talking about top 5 shows like Naruto, Prince of Tennis (unfortunately, sports anime's haven't done well here), Maria-Sama, Pokemon, and Soukyuu no Fafner.


I fail to recall anyone saying we were discussing top 5 shows, it seems the more I prove you wrong, the more you have to grasp at straws. You said "really popular" well Comic Party and GitS are really popular.

I'm also fairly certain that Love Hina wasn't number 1.

GitS isn't second-tier by the way.

And that's a nice link, but those are all shows played on TV Tokyo.

But let's see Maburaho was popular, I've had that.. Gundam SEED.. have that... Onegai Teacher.. had that... Onegai Twins.. have it... FMP: Fumoffu, could consider that second-tier, had that..

Now I'm gonna stop here or Tempest or Cookie or someone will get upset with me.
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marcyu



Joined: 01 Jan 2004
Posts: 28
Location: Destin, Florida
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:57 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
marcyu wrote:

We're talking about top 5 shows like Naruto, Prince of Tennis (unfortunately, sports anime's haven't done well here), Maria-Sama, Pokemon, and Soukyuu no Fafner.


I fail to recall anyone saying we were discussing top 5 shows, it seems the more I prove you wrong, the more you have to grasp at straws. You said "really popular" well Comic Party and GitS are really popular.

I'm also fairly certain that Love Hina wasn't number 1.

GitS isn't second-tier by the way.

And that's a nice link, but those are all shows played on TV Tokyo.

But let's see Maburaho was popular, I've had that.. Gundam SEED.. have that... Onegai Teacher.. had that... Onegai Twins.. have it... FMP: Fumoffu, could consider that second-tier, had that..

Now I'm gonna stop here or Tempest or Cookie or someone will get upset with me.


Well, considering you've probably never worked a day in your life doing this for a living, you should stop. And I did write that Love Hina was a "really popular show", something you never disclaimed. But at this point, you're running into semantics. First tier is a blockbuster show - something that appears on the cover of Newtype more than once a year. You should do retail for a few years before spouting off about it.
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Alias



Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:11 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
This is a little off-topic, but I have only one real complaint against ADV, Bandai America, and the like (besides killing my sales by not going after the eBay bootleggers). Stop whining about fansubs.

For the most part, I think they have stopped complaining about fansubs for series that have not been licensed, but I still hear the whining at every convention. It's come to the point where it really is laughable. I recommend them to allow the fansubs to continue until a month or two before street date.


Fansubing is another form of piracy, it is theft. Stealing other people's artistic work without asking and paying is wrong. Although some shows are not fully licensed in the place where fansubbing are taking place, it is still illegal. Anime shows not yet licensed in US are still protected by International copyright laws. How can you justify the existence of fansubbing?

Fansubbing also contributes to the bootleg materials that's floating around. Most fansubber aren't doing it for fans, they are doing it to make a quick buck.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:15 pm Reply with quote
marcyu wrote:

First tier is a blockbuster show - something that appears on the cover of Newtype more than once a year. You should do retail for a few years before spouting off about it.


That would be what YOU consider blockbuster maybe. Being on the cover of Newtype has little to do with it's ratings or sales. But, going by what you consider blockbuster, Gundam SEED has been on the cover 4 times, and that's one of the series I had the whole thing subbed before it ever made it here.

Also, what's popular in Japan is not always popular here, and vice versa.

Oh, and selling Anime retail doesn't give you all the answers to everything.

The reason I want to stop is not because I can't continue to answer you, but rather I would prefer not to start a huge fight, and I don't want to derail this OT anymore than it already has.
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beelzebozo



Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 308
Location: Aurora, Colorado
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:41 pm Reply with quote
You pay for an internet connection just as you have to pay for cable. And a computer is much more expensive than a television.

The US companies sometimes can't get things fast. I was told that the Japanese company wouldn't allow the US release of GitS:SAC until all of the discs were out in Japan. And our Funimation rep told me that they had to negotiate with several different companies to get the rights to Child's Toy. So the problem isn't always on the American side.

There is enough blame to spread around, both in Japan & America and in the fans & the companies.
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rrowv



Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:27 pm Reply with quote
marcyu wrote:
Another shop owner here! I used to be a fansubber (anyone need a spare genlock?), so I fully support domestic anime companies (a contradiction in terms if any existed). This is a little off-topic, but I have only one real complaint against ADV, Bandai America, and the like (besides killing my sales by not going after the eBay bootleggers). Stop whining about fansubs.

...


I would agree with you that fansubs are an excellent way to advertise for these companies. But at the same time there is a problem: you can get the entire series (at very good quality). If we were only talking about groups releasing a few eps (like the first 5 or something), I think the production companies would be much more willing to look the other way, or even encourage them. After all, you've seen them giving out those demo disks. However, they have a right to be upset. It's their property that's being given away without their permission; even if its beneficial to them.

I do like your main point though (advertising). I don't want to buy a DVD (or a box set, even worse), only to discover I hate it (done that one before). No matter of reviews is going to tell you if YOU will like it, you have to see it for yourself. I believe most of the anime community will agree with me here. Experiments with buying DVDs of series you have never seen can cause many a costly mistake. Since most anime gets no air time, or any other form of real advertisement (full episode run), there's no way for fans to know if they want it. They are anime clubs (none exist here), demo disks (have to buy NewType to get it, or buy the disk), and of course digisubs. For many of us, the only real option (without paying for half the cost of the DVD just to preview it) is to get the digisubs. That's how I preview all the series I see. Without it, I probably wouldn't have bought anywhere close to as many DVDs as I have, or as many as I plan to.

It would be wise of the companies to release more preview material for this reason. If we could get a free first 2 eps (AnimeNation did it), it would be much easier to tell if you would wanted it. And therefor much more likely to buy it. AnimeNation did it (Risky Saftey), ADV did it (Giant Robot Week), Bandai (.hack) among others. Yet many of them (even ADV and Bandai) seem to still be afraid of these previews. In fansubs, they have a free easy way to release previews. Lightening up on fansubs would be one way to do this, if at the very least allowing the first few eps to still be distributed.


Just my $0.02. Sorry to add to the OT-ness Wink
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cyrax777



Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 1825
Location: the desert
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:24 am Reply with quote
fansubs will never die I dont see that happening.

But remember the people downloading fansubs are still in the minority of fans. alot of fans only source of anime is there local store.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:48 am Reply with quote
cyrax777 wrote:

But remember the people downloading fansubs are still in the minority of fans. alot of fans only source of anime is there local store.


I'm not so sure about that, the more anime fans that get broadband, the more they will look to fansubs. I don't think it can be called either way, since there is no real way to measure the amount of fansubs being downloaded by unique individuals.
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bluechibi



Joined: 28 Nov 2003
Posts: 137
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:03 am Reply with quote
fansub code ¬_¬

advertising ¬_¬

Some of you are forgetting that once a fansub has been created it wont disappear just because the fansubbers take it down. For instance, how about Ranma 1/2? How long has that been licensed? Around 10 years? Then why is it that I can download all 161 episodes and all movies and OAVs (some Viz dubs) of it off places like Kazaa? Lets see what other titles Kazaa have plenty off that can be downloaded in no time at all. Inuyasha, Patlabor, Azumanga, Love Hina, Chobits, My Neighbour Totoro, City Hunter, Last Exile, Najica, Gundam Wing, Boogiepop Phantom, FLCL, Laputa, Agent Aika, King of Bandits Jing, Tenchi Muyo, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Gantz, Cutie Honey, The Cat Returns, Full Metal Alchemist, Geneshaft, Fake, Big O, Gravitation, Wedding Peach, Galaxy Angel, Nuku Nuku, Dragonball z/gt, Sailormoon, Ghost in the Shell....

okay you get the idea literally every single anime series that has been licensed is still, and will be for a very very long time to come, available to download free. So even though the fansubbers stopped, did that hault all the sharing? Hell no.

They still get downloaded, they get shared over the internet, they get made into VCDs and DVD and passed around. Why bother buying a DVD or renting one? Or even watching a series on TV when your anime friend down the road can easily burn any series you want. Like I said before, it wasnt this easy years ago, but many people perhaps not in America but other English speaking countries like the UK broadband has become cheaper and many already switching to 1MB connection. Harddrives are becoming even more cheaper and larger, you can easily hold 250 hours worth of anime on a 120GB harddrive (I know because I use to and 247hours of that were licensed anime) DVD burners, new computers seem to come with them standard now, the cost of DVDR/RW has fallen a lot too. A lot more easy to download an anime movie in a few hours and put it on a disc for your family and friends. I still see people sharing files on the internet, exchanging fansub animes already bought up, I still see anime clubs using them, I still see DVDs of series like Azumanga being passed around. If you're too lazy or cant download your own anime then it wouldnt be difficult at all to get your hands on any anime series or movie that you see in lets say beelzebozo shop.

As for fansubs being free advertising, perhaps in old series like Love Hina, people check out a series, if they like it then they'll download it. It is like free exposure, but I think free exposure they could do without. You could easily download the whole Love Hina series in about 8 hours or so. I still see it being passed around infact only the other day someone was burning a copy for a friend of mine.

If people are going to carry on doing fansubs then do what they use as excuses (checking out a series to see what it's like) and just sub a couple of the episodes NOT the entire series say all 25 episodes of Love Hina. What if a story doesnt get going until the middle of the series? Then bloody wait for it to come out on DVD and buy it. There is no excuse why they have to sub the whole series even if it isnt licensed yet. Yet they still do, and why? Because it's not about promoting a series for a US release or letting people check out the series before hand. It's about getting something for nothing. I would have a little respect more respect for fansubs if they only did about 3 or 4 episodes depending on the series size, atleast then it can get people interested without stealing too much from the future license payers and the creators. As for movies, probably best to leave them alone seeing as governments are setting up lots of campaigns against movie piracy and if it's a movie from a series then let the series speak for it.
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bluechibi



Joined: 28 Nov 2003
Posts: 137
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:06 am Reply with quote
oh yeah my old collection of fansubs (that I downloaded within a few weeks - though all deleted now), I think it was 116 DVDs worth. How many did I end up buying legally? About 9 (most Ghiblis)

That pretty much sums it up really.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: Austin, TX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:58 am Reply with quote
bluechibi wrote:

Some of you are forgetting that once a fansub has been created it wont disappear just because the fansubbers take it down. For instance, how about Ranma 1/2? How long has that been licensed? Around 10 years? Then why is it that I can download all 161 episodes and all movies and OAVs (some Viz dubs) of it off places like Kazaa? Lets see what other titles Kazaa have plenty off that can be downloaded in no time at all. Inuyasha, Patlabor, Azumanga, Love Hina, Chobits, My Neighbour Totoro, City Hunter, Last Exile, Najica, Gundam Wing, Boogiepop Phantom, FLCL, Laputa, Agent Aika, King of Bandits Jing, Tenchi Muyo, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Gantz, Cutie Honey, The Cat Returns, Full Metal Alchemist, Geneshaft, Fake, Big O, Gravitation, Wedding Peach, Galaxy Angel, Nuku Nuku(?), Dragonball z/gt, Sailormoon, Ghost in the Shell....

While I will note that numerous titles are left to float in fansubs after being licensed, I'd say most (if not all) of the bolded titles above NEVER had a true "digi-sub" EVER made. If they're on the Kazaa circuit, then they're being bootlegged, pure and simple. And while one might use that point to say "ah-ha, fansubs=bootlegs", I'd also like to point out you can EASILY find:
-Kill Bill
-The Bourne Supremacy
-Spiderman 2
-Farenheit 9/11
etc all online as well, none of which are or will ever be fansubbed. All the above bolded titles at least (IIRC) were mainly (if not ONLY) released as VHS (or SVHS) tapes in terms of fansubs. (did Tenchi ever get ANY kind of fansub release?) So using those as examples of how "fansubs never disappear is disingenuous, instead it's more accurate to just say people WILL rip off the actual release, fansubs or no. Fansubs are not the only thing being distributed online.
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beelzebozo



Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 308
Location: Aurora, Colorado
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:24 pm Reply with quote
I find it funny that we go back the fansub debate again.We are supposed to be talking about people who not only make illegal copies, but also profit from them. The same difference as a person taking a copy of Microsoft Office from work for home use & a person who sells disks full of copied software. Who do you think Bill Gates is going to have a bigger problem with and focus on first? Anways, both sides of the fansub debate have valid points, but I'd rather talk about the HKs and what we, including the companies who own the rights to them, can do about getting them out of the open and back into the back alleys where they belong. I'm not responding to anyone who wants to only comment on the fansub part of this paragraph.

Many of us can spot at bootleg a twenty paces, but Mom & Dad, Grandma & Uncle Jed & Little Timmy, who's only seen anime on Fox Box, can't. These are the people that buy bootlegs because they think they are getting a great deal and because it's in the open, it's legal, right? No shifty person in a trenchcoat, but that nice man at the anime store, right? This is why we have to get HK's off the streets.

OK, I keep my eye on a forum our local bootlegger frequents and he has essentially said this is all a publicity stunt. He works with Anime Combo and all they received was a C & D, so they are continuing business as usual because they didn't exactly try to shut Anime Combo down (I will be sending the PDF I made of his post to Bandai, BTW, gotta love Safari). So I am hoping he is wrong and that Bandai is simply building their case. We haven't been able to find the complaint in either the California court system or the Federal system yet.

Please, Please, PLEASE, don't tell me that I got my hopes up for nothing and that I'm going to have to continue dealing with people coming into my store and telling me I'm overpriced because they can get the entire series for $25 down the street.
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nagash



Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Posts: 280
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:46 am Reply with quote
It is not illegal, as was pointed out further below in another post, to sub and carry a title that has not been licensed in America. No American company will come after you as they can't claim to have a right to it. That does still leave the Japanese company to come after you, if they so wish.
On the subject of how Bandai handled the guy I refered to, I say again, very poor judgement. Don't ask what I'd do to two guys that showed up if I had a store like that.
I will say that the anime/games business I own does not contain any bootlegs. I do sell copies obtained through local retail, rental, and department stores, however. They have clearouts too, and if you buy enough, you might be able to get them cheaper than you could through your normal distributor (they bought them in higher volume than I would've, so they bought them cheaper in the first place).
I've actually been finding it harder to spot counterfit CCGs then bootleg anime. I sell very few CCGs as a result, and that's because I only buy what a certain distributor carries in those terms. I will not touch Yu-Gi-Oh, for example, as a result.
I am curious about something. If you're having a garage sale, or if you rented a table at a local collectibles show to clear up sell some old stuff you had (the equivelant of a yard sale), and you had some of those old bootleg collectibles, what's the legalities? I ask because I nearly tripped over myself when I passed a table at the last show I was at when I saw the 3 Makross figures. Yes, that's Makross. Remember those? They came out right before Robotech hit the television screen. At this point, I'd consider them a novelty. It's not like he can produce anymore of them.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:07 am Reply with quote
nagash wrote:
It is not illegal, as was pointed out further below in another post, to sub and carry a title that has not been licensed in America.


Actually it is illegal. America and Japan (as well as many other countries) have entered into many treaties concerning International Copyrights. As such, all works coming out of Japan are automatically copyrighted whether a copyright is applied for in the US or not. Hence it is illegal to download and distribute fansubs, as they infringe upon the international copyright (unauthorized reproduction and distrobution). The fact that an American company cannot file suit for distrobution of unlicensed material is moot, since they do not own a license nor a copyright to the work. As you have pointed out, however, the Japanese company does own a copyright and can come after you, if they so chose.

That being said, I do download unlicensed anime, but as far as the law is concerned, it is illegal.
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