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Ms. Answerman and the Broken Angel


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Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:53 pm Reply with quote
Jesus wept. Carry on.
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ex_mutants



Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:03 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
Nagisa wrote:
Kazuki-san wrote:
ex_mutants wrote:
Better than “Really Bad” dubs just means they are “Bad” dubs.


Hmm.. or maybe "good"?


Or "really good." Quite a few "really goods" out there.


True


Then my luck has been off for me to only have experienced bad dubs or the are significant differences in perspective. I’ve genuinely tried to watch dubs (hell I used to watch them a lot in the VHS days because dubs were cheaper), but my experience has taught me that more often than not a dub will be bad (Maybe that’s due to the limited pool of voice actors?)
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Emerje



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 7337
Location: Maine
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:17 pm Reply with quote
If you're best experiance with dubs was back in the VHS days then it could be said that the voice actor pool is now Olympic sized compared to the kiddie pool of the 90's. It's been a real treat lately watching shows that I don't recognize the voices in. Better yet, thanks to the huge volumes of titles that are being licensed now, great voice actors who got minor roles way-back-when are now getting the leads. Next time you're buying a DVD try picking something you haven't already seen subtitled that you've heard good things about, you're very likely to notice an improvement in the quality.

Emerje
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sailor_titan



Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 51
Location: Vermont
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:19 am Reply with quote
Because we never learn to stop the dub vs. sub debate...

The only time it really bothers me when dub fans won't watch subs is in the following circumstance (this really happened):

Anime fan: God, the EVA dub is SOOOOOO bad!!
Me: Then watch the subtitled version. You get used to the subtitles.
Anime Fan: Meh.
~later, after they've watched some more EVA--dubbed~
Fan: The dub of EVA is SOOOOO awful!
Me: *twitch twitch* Then watch the sub! It's better! You get used to the subtitles!
Fan: Meh.

~repeat ad nausem~

That one gets my goat. And, to respond to some other points of discussion:

Quote:
He makes a comment on how when you're watching subtitles part of that includes trying to comprehend the forign language. Sorry, but unless you're watching with the intention of actually understanding the language, it's going right in one ear and coming out the other. To say you're trying to comprehend the language while watching would be to say that you're trying to learn the language while watching which is impossible (unless you're some sort of savant which I doubt most anime fans are).


Actually, I've picked up a lot of vocabulary watching anime, as well as few verb forms. In fact, if anyone on the board is thinking of taking Japanese, STOP WATCHING DUBS RIGHT NOW AND SWITCH TO SUBS. Trust me, you'll be thanking yourself so much, you'll save so much time from not having to study vocab. I seriously already know about 50-90% of my new vocab every time we go to a new chapter. Best decision of my language career...

Quote:
f you're best experiance with dubs was back in the VHS days then it could be said that the voice actor pool is now Olympic sized compared to the kiddie pool of the 90's. It's been a real treat lately watching shows that I don't recognize the voices in. Better yet, thanks to the huge volumes of titles that are being licensed now, great voice actors who got minor roles way-back-when are now getting the leads. Next time you're buying a DVD try picking something you haven't already seen subtitled that you've heard good things about, you're very likely to notice an improvement in the quality.


Actually, I've watched some newer shows dubbed and they STILL make me gag. not all of them, but most of them. Especially superGALS!. That show makes me cry dubbed. Cry like a little girl.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:26 am Reply with quote
sailor_titan wrote:

Actually, I've picked up a lot of vocabulary watching anime, as well as few verb forms. .


So have I, but the point is that is not the case for everyone. Quite a few people watch subs, but only concentrate on reading and not associating what they are reading with the spoken Japanese. These types of people will learn nothing, or next to nothing watching subs. I know people like this, so I speak from experience.

sailor_titan wrote:
Actually, I've watched some newer shows dubbed and they STILL make me gag. not all of them, but most of them. Especially superGALS!. That show makes me cry dubbed. Cry like a little girl.


Well if most make you gag, I would have to ask what you've been watching? (other than superGALS)
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Emerje



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 7337
Location: Maine
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:35 am Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
I know people like this, so I speak from experience.


I can speak from experience because I AM like this! Very Happy About the only thing I'm interested in picking up from them is how to say the names right, otherwise I'm just trying to watch the show. Wink

Emerje
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Haiseikoh 1973



Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 1590
Location: Waiting for the Japanese 1000 Gunieas.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:32 am Reply with quote
sailor_titan wrote:


Actually, I've picked up a lot of vocabulary watching anime, as well as few verb forms.


Pinpooooon
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Sword of Whedon



Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 683
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:13 pm Reply with quote
Since I've discovered I'm not banned from speaking on it

I get a license to do a Spanish adaptation of ANN. I carry all of the same topic headings, I answer the same questions in Answerman, I review the same DVDs. While the byline claims to be a translation, all of the articles are actually totally rewritten by the dirt-cheapest people I can find with no respect for maintaining the original author's words and intentions. Instead I say that I "made different choices" than the original, and the industry at large accepts that as a "good thing"

I would have ruined the integrity of those articles. And the same thing happens when you dub an actor.

[quote]Sword of Whedon, just because someone chooses to not read subtitles doesn't make them any lazier.

Think about this:
Quote:

You have two people. Both are at home watching Spirited Away, let's say. Person A is watching it dubbed. He is thinking about the dialogue, thinking about the symbolism in the story, thinking about all the little nuances in the art and formulating his own theories about what the story represents and what kind of messages the director was trying ot send.


Except that they're the nuances of whatever bargain-basement dubbing director decided were right. Watch the dubbing doc on the Spirited Away DVD, the people writing the dub script had no clue what a seal was! I knew what a seal was when I was 6 years old. At least Neil Gaiman did an immense amount of research while doing the Mononoke script, these people got nothing, and I severely doubt that anyone working for the anime companies even go as far as the SA hacks did, given the volume they're cranking.

Quote:

Person B is staring blankly at the subtitles, reading the words, but not thinking about anything beyond staring at subs.


Then person B needs to watch more subtitles. I can read the average subtitle in about 1/4 second, and have plenty of time to decipher nuance and meaning derived from the intended performances.

Quote:
Who's lazy then?


Both of them. Person A for watching dubs, Person B for not reading more.


Quote:
Unless you find a peer-reviewed scientific journal about an experiment with at least 100 participants, presided over by a neurologist, a biochemist, a psychologist, and a cognitive science specialist, using data gathered from CT CAT scans, MRIs, and EEGs, your "facts" are nothing but a load of bull.


Great, find me the million bucks for it and I'm totally on it. As it is I have a neurologist's statement on basic brain activity, and I'm seeing if I can get my hands on an EEG. As it is I'll probably be lucky to get 50 samples, but the more the merrier and more accurate.
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jmays
ANN Associate Editor


Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 1390
Location: St. Louis, MO
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:35 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
While the byline claims to be a translation, all of the articles are actually totally rewritten by the dirt-cheapest people I can find with no respect for maintaining the original author's words and intentions. Instead I say that I "made different choices" than the original, and the industry at large accepts that as a "good thing"

That's a ridiculously unfair summary of the translation process. Certainly, some folks like Steven Foster and Amanda Winn Lee fall into that category, and when they rewrite scripts, fans almost always deride them for it. There are also studios, like the one that did the Tenchi GXP dub, that do a shamefully cheap job.

But the vast majority of anime translators absolutely respect the original work. And that's why most of today's dubs and subtitles are translated fairly. If you want to claim otherwise, you better bring a lot of proof.

The million bucks is your problem; you're the one who's stuck on that meaningless theory, and the rest of us really don't care. If a person was determined to maximize his brain activity during a thirty-minute period, he wouldn't be watching television in the first place.
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Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:37 pm Reply with quote
First off, all this santorum about how dub translators and such are all, without exception, untalented losers could just as easily pertain to sub translators. SoW would have us believe all companies hire good people to do subs and bad people to do dubs. Meh.

Sword of Whedon wrote:
I can read the average subtitle in about 1/4 second, and have plenty of time to decipher nuance and meaning derived from the intended performances.



As I've already explained, not only is time spent reading subs time not spend watching the visuals, but the art of leading the viewer's eye is a precise one. If the viewer's eye is constantly blipping to the bottom of the screen and back up again, it makes tossed salad of the director's careful guidance of the eyelines.

Finally, if I'm lazy for not choosing to read while I view, then Japanese people are lazy for making the same choice. The idea that people who choose to watch something that was designed to be watched are lazy is just too fatuous to take seriously.

And another thing; if you aren't fluent in the language you're listening too, there's no way you're going to get any sense of the nuances out of it. If you don't know how the japanese words are being inflected, and what those inflections signify, then you're missing quite a bit.

Plenty of dub actors are quite good, and if you disagree you're wrong. Just wrong.
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Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:55 pm Reply with quote
BTW the best source I know of for info on leading the viewer's eye is "In The Blink Of An Eye" by Walter Murch, acclaimed film editor.
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The Ramblin' Wreck



Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 924
Location: Teaching Robot Women How To Love
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:44 pm Reply with quote
First rule of Animation:

All animation is dubbed.

Unless you have discovered pictures that can speak and take direction, there is an actor/actress in a studio somewhere bringing that character's voice to life.

I always love the arguements that the translations are so terrible for the subs, but there is never any evidence brought forth to back up this claim. In fact, the one time I was given this information, the guy was comparing it to a FANSUB translation, like it was the spoken word of God.
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sailor_titan



Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 51
Location: Vermont
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:59 pm Reply with quote
Wedding Peach had some really bad voices in it. Mind you, not all of them were bad, but for me, one bad voice can really ruin the whole show. I had the same problem watching Hellsing, and Pretear's dub voices were pathetically goofy sounding. That's about it recently, since I tend not to bother watching dubs since i usually don't enjoy them. It probably doesn't help that I usually like to watch more obscure or less popular anime, which will tend to have less spent on the dubbing.
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