Forum - View topicThe Evangelion Discussion. ( Spoilers, so be warned)
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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In light of your argument I may have to put a rewatch on the cards soon. It may well be that others have reformed their bodies, but the 'Adam and Eve' symbolism Ikari1 makes reference to is still strong enough to warrant the opposing opinion. The fact that the billions of people were once a single organism could have easily distorted their own views on returning to their bodies. What I remember seeing of Instrumentality itself seemed to be lustful in a grotesque way. Couple that with the mass of human experience everyone had simultaneously embraced, and the whole event could quite easily change a person's will quite dramatically. Experiencially speaking we cannot fathom what it must have felt like for those involved. I would be inclined to assume the previously irrational view not to return to one's original form could thus be willed by any given person. As you have mentioned, Asuka does act as a counterexample to this, but the current debate as to her reasons for returning should hopefully shed light on the issue, if not confuse me further. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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You know what's funny about comparisons to the Adam and Eve story? Well, Cain meets another woman in Genesis from somewhere else, a separate creation from those in the Garden of Eden -- people who are arguing for parallels between the end of EoE and the Adam and Eve mythos are unknowingly shooting themselves in the foot!
But sweeping billions of humans with the same broad brush is ludicrous. If you have a prideful yet once-suicidal teenage girl finding reason to reform her body and face reality, how could there not be others? Again, Anno's intent is to sharpen the narrative focus, not to give a fully illustrated answer of how humanity copes with the world post-Third Impact. (Which would be cool, but, again, would become too unwieldy for a personal story like Evangelion. Its plot involves a large scale, but the story itself is not an epic.)
She wanted to face reality. She decided to not avoid the pain any longer. I'm not sure there's anything complex about her motivation to return; it's the same as Shinji's reformation in episode 20: having the will to live and face the pains you will inevitably experience in order to discover true happiness. |
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Ikari1
 Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Its not that I relate the story of adam and eve directly word for word to Shinji and Asuka but rather I think of the link in a more subtle way. It is difficult to not see that adam and eve connection to be honest so it's probably something that Anno wanted us to see. If we look at it on a really basic level that image is simply commenting on the role and future that may lay ahead for Shinji and Asuka. At least it is suggesting that they are maybe destined to be together. They have already shared so much in terms of coming to terms with themselves and those last few moments between the two of them in end of evangelion should be considered as well.
The question is why are we specifically only shown Shinji and Asuka and not any one else choosing to come back first. Shinji and Asuka are the first humans that choose to come back so there is something significant in my mind about that. If it was any other director maybe I would over look it but with Anno you never quite know what it is he is trying to say. Theres always room to speculate with Evangelion. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Could it have something to do with Shinji initiating Instrumentality? I mean, maybe he was the first to go through it, and therefore able to be the first to exit? I don't know why Asuka is there with him, although perhaps her being in an EVA as Instrumentality was implemented had something to do with it. I do think there's a very simple explanation, one that perhaps does not run the risk of over-analysing the material. Maybe Anno wanted to focus on Shinji and Asuka, and so chose to make them the only people in the scene. Call it artistic license if you like, where "reality" gets glossed over in order to highlight a particular thread or plot point. |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Are you talking about the mixture of sexual imagery in the End of evagnelion as well as the more disturbing aspects that Instrumentality favours?
Yeah theres is that as well. We may be over anylising the material slightly. This is evangelion however and nothing is ever Black and white in this series. When I watched it for the first time the gut feeling I get from that Adam and Eve image and the way in which they ended up in the same place was that Shinji did unwittingly will her to be there with him. Hell korn has already presented a strong argument against this by saying that it was up to the individual to come back and not Shinji's chocie to bring Asuka back however. The cinematography does make me think against this however silly it seems.
Yes, this is what makes me question, how much control Shinji had over the whole situation to be honest. I do think that if Anno did just want to focuss on Shinji and Asuka then he was trying to suggest somthing about thier future and relationship. Some of the art work on the dvd cover shows the pair of them sitting side by side after the strangling scene as well which has always intruged me to be honest. Of course the point of the Adam and eve image could just be Anno trying to highlight the fact that humanity is starting a new leaf and that there is now a completly new start to be had. On another note, when I wrap a piece of text in a quote box, how do I alternate between bringing up the name of the poster that posted it and just having a nameless quote? |
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Zin5ki
Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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It may be ludicrous for me to make the suggestion, but the post-Instrumentality circumstances in which I make it are equally so. My blanket statement once applied but to a single entity.
You raise a valid point here, and dtm42 does also. I like to think her mental condition was such that even in the afterglow of the Instrumentality's obscure bliss, she couldn't stand the feeling of togetherness and unlike others wished to isolate herself. To entail that she and Shinji alone have returned could obviously be denied if one makes assumptions that there were others who shared her mental condition, but within the sphere of the story's characters (viz. those we concern ourselves with) it would make sense for the two to be the only returnees. The two may at sometime meet the equivalent of the separate woman from Genesis. Dwelling within reason this is an acceptable assumption. Though at the time of Askua uttering the final line of the film and the franchise we are yet to receive closure on this point, to an extent that would suffice for everyone to share the same interpretation.
Both. The spoiler[Shinji/Rei genital merge] really sums it all up.
An unnamed quote is started simply by: [quote] A named quote is started by: [quote="quotee's name"] They're both ended in the same way. Hope that helps. |
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Leon Evolon
 Posts: 212 Location: Crazytowne |
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I am really looking forward to the next movie, I am actually planning to take a trip to Japan next summer when it is supposedly going to come out. First of all it's Asuka's appearance in the movies, and she's always been my favorite out of the Evangelion cast because of her depth of character (not that all of the others are not equally deep). It seems to me that she is a person that has taken up a self-detrimental view of herself after her mother died. It is as though she blames herself for the death of her mother – I want to say that Asuka's mother's death somehow came about as a result of NERV, but I can't recall any concrete evidence from the series to back that up. When she meets Shinji I think she sees an inverse image of herself in him – he is introverted because of pain caused by his father in almost the same way that she became aggressive after losing her mother - it's a defense mechanism against the pains of the world (the "hedgehog's dilemma"). I feel this similarity is part of the reason they take a liking for each other, each finds a quality in the other that he/she does not easily express. This is then complicated at the end of the TV series when Asuka, trying to prove herself, fails to defend the Geofront and Shinji charges to the rescue. Asuka is forced to confront her inner-psyche where she has buried the pain of losing her mother. This is the role reversal. Asuka becomes lethargic and much more reserved while Shinji becomes somewhat more assertive and takes center stage. I want to pose the question, is the image of Shinji becoming aggressive and taking the power away from Asuka intended to represents the transformation of Shinji into the “alpha-male” figure? Getting back to the new movie, I noticed that the new female character looks a bit like Mana from one of the NGE video games, though with longer hair. Perhaps we are being set up for a new harem development.  Ok, I’ll try to keep the weird jokes out of this. I think it would be interesting if this is intended to incorporate the content from the games as it would provide another level of complexity to the series that wasn’t present by just watching the TV anime. Perhaps we will finally see some of the other Eva units that are mentioned but never shown in the original. I know you (Ikari1) didn’t include it in your list of items to be discussed at the beginning of this topic, but I want to see what other people think of the new movie(s) in relation to the originals. It is my opinion that the first movie was a great success in terms of how it revitalized the visuals and added a few brand new elements, such as Kaworu’s early appearance in the series and Shinji being shown the Angel in Central Dogma earlier than in the TV anime. These elements came together in an excellent piece of animated gold in my opinion. What do some of you guys think about it?
Last edited by Leon Evolon on Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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zanarkand princess
 Posts: 1484 |
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I for one would be thoroughly disgusted if eva became anything like a harem show so I'm hoping that's not it. That's why I'm scared of mana/mari in the first place.
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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There's simply no need for her. What's wrong with just introducing Asuka?
Last edited by dtm42 on Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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zanarkand princess
Posts: 1484 |
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Um nothing is wrong with auska. She's supposed to be there. This new girl is looking pretty pointless now but I'm hoping she has some use.
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Sorry, I didn't word it properly. I meant the new girl. Asuka should most definitely be in. Which means that there really isn't going to be space for the new girl to fit. I mean, are they really going to introduce two new girls in a two-hour movie? Don't they realise that Asuka's Tsundere nature means she practically is two people by herself? |
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Leon Evolon
Posts: 212 Location: Crazytowne |
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I think it will be fine to introduce two new characters in the movie, so long as they both serve a purpose in the story. If you think about it, those that have never seen the series before are introduced to quite a large number of people through the first movie. Each of the female leads, in my opinion, is intended to represent a potential (and perhaps realized) love interest for Shinji. While Rei is stoic and emotionless, Asuka represents the opposite end of the spectrum, being very outspoken and fiery, and Misato is somewhat of a motherly figure - though she does also serve as another potential love interest. Mana, while she only appears in the games, is a in the middle - kind of representing an "average" girl. I feel that this is where the new girl is going to fit into the equation. She will be a constant against which we can compare the others. I could be wrong of course, but either way, I am feverishly looking forward to the movie.
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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What new character?
 Link me up. All I saw was Asuka and Rei.
EDIT: Oh, okay. I originally mistook that front profile for Rei. In theory it still could be an alternate design for Rei. More likely than not though, guys, it's a basic design for the suit itself. I mean, look at the character herself. She has that "dummy model" look to her, mannish female, and a gray suit. She could be a new character, but if no script has been spec-approved or commissioned, she's probably just a model. If she is a new character (again, too flat to be considered) she's probably a replacement for Kaworu, right? This is really really really a stretch, but...considering the askew romantic implications of their pressured bond, it may be easier for early story incarnations to make her a woman. Don't throw sticks, purists, I think it'd be a mistake myself, but all of it is very very hard to believe anyway, and just my best guess. |
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zanarkand princess
Posts: 1484 |
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No it was stated at the end of eva 1.0 after kaworu appeared that she (mari is her name) would be a new pilot. She a definite new character.
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Ah. I think I was looking at the live-action movie. We got our wires crossed weird somewhere. My bad.
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