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NEWS: 4Kids' Yu-Gi-Oh! License Is Still in Force, Court Rules


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Shenl742



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:06 pm Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
Top Gun wrote:
, but let's not sit here and pretend that the show is anything more than it is, any more than Pokemon was anything more than a 30-minute commercial for the games/cards. (Hell, the US did the exact same thing with the likes of Transformers.) There's no great storytelling here, no well-written characters...just pure kiddie-entertaining commercialism. This is the exact sort of series that 4Kids should be handling; the reason everyone got so upset over One Piece was because it wasn't.


Out of curiosity, have you you actually seen the show and based your judgments on that? Or are you making assumptions on the show's quality based on the franchise's origin?

I haven't seen the show so I can't really comment on it specifically, but I do know that just because the show was made to help sell cards doesn't automatically mean it's crap, or that there can't be enjoyable or well developed characters in it. Some of the Digimon anime series have been surprisingly good despite being originally created just to sell toys and games. So who's to say that Yu-Gi-Oh! can't also generate some well done anime series.


The thing that makes YGO a lot more seedier then other merchanisable franchises is that the characters actually use the merchandise in universe, and it's merchandise in universe. The main character's grandfather actually owns a card shop. Everything in the show runs around an in universe collectable card game. I'm sorry if my suspension of disbelief in the narative starts snapping.

I mean, sure Naruto and lots of other titles have marketable tie-ins falling out the ass, but it's not like the plot ever revolves around them picking up a pair of controllers and beating the next Ultimate Ninja game.
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Mad_Scientist
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:13 pm Reply with quote
Shenl742 wrote:
Mad_Scientist wrote:
Top Gun wrote:
, but let's not sit here and pretend that the show is anything more than it is, any more than Pokemon was anything more than a 30-minute commercial for the games/cards. (Hell, the US did the exact same thing with the likes of Transformers.) There's no great storytelling here, no well-written characters...just pure kiddie-entertaining commercialism. This is the exact sort of series that 4Kids should be handling; the reason everyone got so upset over One Piece was because it wasn't.


Out of curiosity, have you you actually seen the show and based your judgments on that? Or are you making assumptions on the show's quality based on the franchise's origin?

I haven't seen the show so I can't really comment on it specifically, but I do know that just because the show was made to help sell cards doesn't automatically mean it's crap, or that there can't be enjoyable or well developed characters in it. Some of the Digimon anime series have been surprisingly good despite being originally created just to sell toys and games. So who's to say that Yu-Gi-Oh! can't also generate some well done anime series.


The thing that makes YGO a lot more seedier then other merchanisable franchises is that the characters actually use the merchandise in universe, and it's merchandise in universe. The main character's grandfather actually owns a card shop. Everything in the show runs around an in universe collectable card game. I'm sorry if my suspension of disbelief in the narative starts snapping.


Yah, it does seem a bit silly, but Digimon Tamers found a way to incorporate a card game element into it that actually fit with the narrative I think. Different series obviously, but sometimes anime series do manage to take absurd concepts and make them work.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:27 pm Reply with quote
Shenl742 wrote:
The thing that makes YGO a lot more seedier then other merchanisable franchises is that the characters actually use the merchandise in universe, and it's merchandise in universe. The main character's grandfather actually owns a card shop. Everything in the show runs around an in universe collectable card game. I'm sorry if my suspension of disbelief in the narative starts snapping.


Except there's an in-universe explanation for all of that and why they do it. For example, the modern Duel Monsters card game was based on ancient beasts and creatures that the ancient Egyptian Pharoah's used in battles, and those creatures were formed through ritualistic sacrifices and offering one's own life to create. The Millennium Items were created in a similar fashion, the Pharaoh spoiler[ kidnapped all the villagers in a village on the outskirts of his country, murdered them, and threw their blood and bone and souls into a smelter with liquid gold to create the seven Millennium Items, because an ancient text they found told them how to create items of immeasurable power] which is why the Millennium Items are alive and living artifacts of power. It's also why spoiler[Bakura is the main villain of the series. He's the sole survivor of that village who witnessed what the Pharaoh's men did and wants revenge on Yugi/the spirit in the puzzle for what he did to his town] Things get more complicated as it goes on, but yes. The modern game is a byproduct of that which tapped into the dark and satanic arts of the original game. Most of the main villains tie into the origins of the game and the Pharaoh. The only one who doesn't ties into Kaiba's past and his adopted childhood. Not to mention in the show it's just seen as any other sport like football or baseball. It's like asking why everyone in One Piece is a pirate, or why everyone in Naruto is a ninja, or why everyone in Dragonball knows martial arts. Or probably more accurate, why everyone in the .hack world played The World as the only real video game. That's the world they live in.
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Shenl742



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:35 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
Shenl742 wrote:
The thing that makes YGO a lot more seedier then other merchanisable franchises is that the characters actually use the merchandise in universe, and it's merchandise in universe. The main character's grandfather actually owns a card shop. Everything in the show runs around an in universe collectable card game. I'm sorry if my suspension of disbelief in the narative starts snapping.


Except there's an in-universe explanation for all of that and why they do it. For example, the modern Duel Monsters card game was based on ancient beasts and creatures that the ancient Egyptian Pharoah's used in battles, and those creatures were formed through ritualistic sacrifices and offering one's own life to create. The Millennium Items were created in a similar fashion, the Pharaoh spoiler[ kidnapped all the villagers in a village on the outskirts of his country, murdered them, and threw their blood and bone and souls into a smelter with liquid gold to create the seven Millennium Items, because an ancient text they found told them how to create items of immeasurable power] which is why the Millennium Items are alive and living artifacts of power. It's also why spoiler[Bakura is the main villain of the series. He's the sole survivor of that village who witnessed what the Pharaoh's men did and wants revenge on Yugi/the spirit in the puzzle for what he did to his town] Things get more complicated as it goes on, but yes. The modern game is a byproduct of that which tapped into the dark and satanic arts of the original game. Most of the main villains tie into the origins of the game and the Pharaoh. The only one who doesn't ties into Kaiba's past and his adopted childhood. Not to mention in the show it's just seen as any other sport like football or baseball. It's like asking why everyone in One Piece is a pirate, or why everyone in Naruto is a ninja, or why everyone in Dragonball knows martial arts. That's the world they live in.


It's still a card game. No matter how much in universe explanation you can give, it's still a card game. Heck, all that explanation actually makes it sound MORE rediculous. I mean, people taking a game with goofy monsters and magic spells printed on cardboard seriously, it's almost the equivalent of LARPing suddenly being recognized as a national sport.

I mean, I grew up in the 80s, I'm familiar with this kind of thing, but at least the Autobots could never recruit new members by going to the local K-Mart

I can take worlds full of ninjas and pirates with some degree of seriousness. I mean, it's not THAT far removed from picking up some old Burroughs and enjoying worlds of barbarians and snake gods. But I card games? Sorry, I can't. We all have our limits.
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Primus



Joined: 01 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:47 pm Reply with quote
All anime is produced with the intent to sell crap, and when said crap doesn't sell the plug gets pulled. It's why despite great ratings Dragon Ball Kai got cancelled, and why moe shows can get multiple seasons despite non-existent ratings.

barrelroller wrote:
Primus wrote:

Kahn's gone, the company's dubs are a lot more accurate, and they even stream most of their properties uncut at Toonzaki.com


What anime's are uncut that you know of? I wasn't aware that the dubs somehow got better...


They stream Yu-Gi-Oh! 5Ds, Sonic X, and a couple of others. These aren't uncut dubs, but rather uncut Japanese subtitled versions.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:37 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
tsunayakuin wrote:
So if 4kids keeps Zexal on long enough that means the other half of their budget will be blown editing Cathy and Anna.


If I were a paranoid conspirator, I'd swear they're purposely injecting more and more fanservice into ZeXal to spite 4Kids and make them work overtime and blow more money on edits. All 3 main girls fit the billing so far.


I dunno why 4Kids spends so much time editing anyway. Let the kids have some fanservice, jesus
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:00 pm Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
Out of curiosity, have you you actually seen the show and based your judgments on that? Or are you making assumptions on the show's quality based on the franchise's origin?

I watched enough of the original series when it originally aired on Kids' WB and the like to get the general premise, and even back then I was laughing uproariously at it. Shenl742 pretty much hits the nail on the head: it's a franchise designed to sell card games, that itself is entirely about playing a card game. All of those fun quotes from The Abridged Series are dead-on: building these crazy holographic stadiums for the sole purpose of playing a children's game is every bit as inane as 10-year-olds wandering around the Kanto region unsupervised. TitanXL, if you truly think that something like that is the storytelling equivalent of a One Piece or Naruto (or hell, even Bleach), I guess all I can do is shake my head and walk away.
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Sewingrose
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Joined: 11 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:23 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
Mad_Scientist wrote:
Out of curiosity, have you you actually seen the show and based your judgments on that? Or are you making assumptions on the show's quality based on the franchise's origin?

I watched enough of the original series when it originally aired on Kids' WB and the like to get the general premise, and even back then I was laughing uproariously at it. Shenl742 pretty much hits the nail on the head: it's a franchise designed to sell card games, that itself is entirely about playing a card game. All of those fun quotes from The Abridged Series are dead-on: building these crazy holographic stadiums for the sole purpose of playing a children's game is every bit as inane as 10-year-olds wandering around the Kanto region unsupervised. TitanXL, if you truly think that something like that is the storytelling equivalent of a One Piece or Naruto (or hell, even Bleach), I guess all I can do is shake my head and walk away.


It doesn't matter what the "storytelling equivalent" is if people are enjoying the show for it's own merits. You might find the show insanely dull and have no value besides being in commercial to sell the card games, but there are people who are legitimately fans of it, including the creator of the abridged series that you mention above. And fans of any product can and will have loud opinions on the shows they love are treated.
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Haterater



Joined: 30 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:25 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Saturday Morning cartoons are a thing of the past. That was big before we had channels like Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network dedicated to cartoons for the bulk of the day. People need to stop clinging to this nostalgia. I can say as an adult, I would hate waking up early to watch a show. Saturday mornings died out because they are now obsolete with all-day cartoon channels. If someone can't afford a basic cable package then I'll assume they have more pressing concerns than being able to watch Dora the Explorer and Spongebob.


Its not really nostalgia if some kids never had the experience, which is possible as time goes by. What you're also saying is that low income kids shouldn't be bothered to be entertained. We have basic TV for all, there should be at least something for the young demographic to watch. If 4Kids go, the only option is PBS and hope they keep their cartoons going along with the funding to keep the channel up.
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Mad_Scientist
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:50 pm Reply with quote
@Top Gun

Well, I suppose I really shouldn't be defending a series I haven't even seen, but I feel compelled to do so for reasons I'll explain in a bit. So I'll point out that the version of Yu-Gi-Oh! you saw was an early series which may or may not be as good as some of the later ones. Also, if you saw it on Kid's WB it was certainly a hacked-to-bits 4Kids version, and that would be a poor indication of the true quality of the show. I saw bits of the 4Kids One Piece once, and I thought it was the stupidest thing I had ever seen.

But why do I care about defending Yu-Gi-Oh! so much? Well, because of my relatively recent exposure to the Digimon franchise. I never watched Digimon as a kid (or Pokemon either), and as an adult anime fan I initially dismissed it entirely. I figured it was probably crap that no adult anime fan would care for.

Well, I regularly watch the video anime reviews of JesuOtaku (she's done written reviews for ANN too, she's Hope Chapman), and she started this huge Digimon review/retrospective a while back. And through watching it, I found that my initial assessment of the Digimon franchise was too hasty. The franchise definitely has some issues, especially in some of its iterations, but it has managed to produce some surprisingly good characters and storytelling. I've watched some of Digimon Tamers, and though I put it on hold for now since the crunchyroll subtitles are tied for the most atrocious subtitles I've ever seen, I rather enjoyed what I saw... and I haven't even reached the later parts when the series gets really good (and dark).

From what I understand, the Digimon anime franchise has generally been pretty lucky in its US TV airings, in terms of censoring and voice acting quality. This is especially surprising for Digimon Tamers considering how dark it gets, and how disturbing some of the imagery gets. And I could easily see people being pissed if Digimon Tamers had gotten a total hack job instead. I'm trying to imagine what the series would have been like had they completely eliminated any of the deaths that occur, and it's not a pretty thing.

I have no problem if someone wants to argue that 4Kids isn't that bad anymore, that their Yu-Gi-Oh! dubs are relatively unedited with decent voice acting, that they now often make unedited versions available. But I don't like someone just saying "it doesn't matter if they completely butcher Yu-Gi-Oh! because it's kiddie crap anyways." Because I once assumed Digimon was just kiddie crap that no reasonable adult would enjoy seriously.
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White Lightning Alchemist



Joined: 11 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:53 pm Reply with quote
[quote="Top Gun"]
Mad_Scientist wrote:
TitanXL, if you truly think that something like that is the storytelling equivalent of a One Piece or Naruto (or hell, even Bleach), I guess all I can do is shake my head and walk away.


Personally, I think Yu-Gi-Oh! (Everything but Zexal at least) is a hell of lot better than Bleach. Most anime is made to sell merchandise, anyway. It's a cheesy Shonen show and it has fans that want to see it treated as well as other cheesy Shonen shows. Yeah, I'm a little biased since I'm an actual fan of Yu-Gi-Oh!, so I, you know, watch and read it...
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TheSwedishElf



Joined: 21 May 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:36 pm Reply with quote
...

HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN?

4Kids is bankrupt! They were removed from the New York stock exchange! They lost pretty much all of their properties! How can they continue to own anything?
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Shenl742



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:52 pm Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
@Top Gun

Well, I suppose I really shouldn't be defending a series I haven't even seen, but I feel compelled to do so for reasons I'll explain in a bit. So I'll point out that the version of Yu-Gi-Oh! you saw was an early series which may or may not be as good as some of the later ones. Also, if you saw it on Kid's WB it was certainly a hacked-to-bits 4Kids version, and that would be a poor indication of the true quality of the show. I saw bits of the 4Kids One Piece once, and I thought it was the stupidest thing I had ever seen.


Not really in my opinion. Years ago, I too used to be really indignant over heavily edited anime as well. There were lots of sites that would pour lots of details and comparisons about the 4Kids version and original Yugioh, and I followed them heavily for awhile...

...but then I realized that either way, Yugioh kind of sucked...a lot.

Whether or not losing a card game causes you to

A-Get cut up by a buzz saw

or B-Have a DARK ENERGY DISK send YOUR MIND to the SHADOW REALM!!

Really, in the end, they're both pretty damn rediculous, in their own way.

I'm not really gonna begrudge someone for liking Yugioh and being indignant about what 4Kids did to it, but I really think someone should examine themselves if they believe that it's something more than it is, and act more then a little surprised when someone else looks at the show with a certain degree of cynicism.

Quote:
Well, I regularly watch the video anime reviews of JesuOtaku (she's done written reviews for ANN too, she's Hope Chapman), and she started this huge Digimon review/retrospective a while back. And through watching it, I found that my initial assessment of the Digimon franchise was too hasty. The franchise definitely has some issues, especially in some of its iterations, but it has managed to produce some surprisingly good characters and storytelling. I've watched some of Digimon Tamers, and though I put it on hold for now since the crunchyroll subtitles are tied for the most atrocious subtitles I've ever seen, I rather enjoyed what I saw... and I haven't even reached the later parts when the series gets really good (and dark).


And that's fine too, because honestly, the Digimon franchise is pretty alright...for what it is. But a series like that just isn't for me anymore. And I'm not saying that as a maturity of taste (this is coming form a guy who loves Gaogaigar!), just a changing of taste
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:06 am Reply with quote
Primus:
Quote:
It's amusing how so many people complain that accessibility to anime has hurt the industry so much yet so many cheer for the death of a company who guarantee's every show it licenses ends up on TV.


Dude, the only thing 4Kids has done for anime was make Pokemon and YuGiOh into hits. And it's doubtful that it had anything to do with them. They just landed the next collectable craze fad, and the target audience ate it up.

Quote:
Kahn's gone, the company's dubs are a lot more accurate, and they even stream most of their properties uncut at Toonzaki.com


Yeah, but what about, say, Ultimate Muscle and Tokyo Mew Mew uncut on DVD?

Quote:
All anime is produced with the intent to sell crap, and when said crap doesn't sell the plug gets pulled. It's why despite great ratings Dragon Ball Kai got cancelled, and why moe shows can get multiple seasons despite non-existent ratings.


Not sure where DBKai got cancelled, 'cus it was a hit in both countries. And moe gets multiple seasons, 'cus it fits empty late-night slots. And as for all anime being produced to sell crap, then explain Mindgame. Rolling Eyes

kusanagi:
Quote:
Except verbal contracts are not enforceable in a court of law (I remember this from my business law class)


That depends on whether or not they were recorded. I am not a lawyer.

jlaking and Titan: I don't want decent hard-working people at the company to get hurt, but it's no doubt going to happen any way with how Al Kh*nt mismanaged the company.

And the problem with 4Kids isn't how it was edited, but the fact that the company refused to release unedited versions of these shows, even when people were pirating 'em. That's probably really why they lost One Piece. My guess w/ Pokemon, though, is Nintendo just didn't need 'em anymore.

Titan:
Quote:
The fact you got so defensive is exactly the point I was trying to make. Yu-Gi-Oh and One Piece are no different.


Well, not really true, YuGiOh is meant to sell cards. One Piece is at least meant to cater specifically to fans of the manga, with merch being a perk.

Top Gun: YuGiOh had a decent story until GX, anyway.
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Sunday Silence



Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:58 am Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
I dunno why 4Kids spends so much time editing anyway. Let the kids have some fanservice, jesus


And risk having some Fundie in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan throw a hissy fit?
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