×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
Ken Iyadomi on Bandai's Downsizing


Goto page Previous    Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:33 pm Reply with quote
dragonrider_cody wrote:
...
I also seem to remember people making these same arguments about the "harem fad". People were constantly blaming it for anime not being more popular and asking when it was going to end. ...

People who come into anime because of series like "X" at first find more series like "X" , then discover that not all anime is like that. "If only they made more like 'X', they'd be alright."

But not even movie moguls with billions of dollars on the line if they get it right can pick what the next big thing is ~ the idea that any of us here has the secret recipe is laughable. That's part of the appeal of free ad-streaming: it allows people to sample a series with a very low barrier to entry, with a link handed around on different social media networks, and lets different series find their market.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:21 pm Reply with quote
dragonrider_cody wrote:
I never said I was speaking about overall profitability of the title. That was the claim you made, not me.


Then we are clearly talking about two totally different things.

If you want to blather on about the advantages of these kinds of releases, you go right ahead. However, why you would possibly choose to go off on this in response to my comment about something completely different (overall profitability) and open by telling me I'm "completely wrong" is nothing short of mind boggling.

agila61 wrote:
Yes, technically that is correct.


Sorry but you've actually had your permission to argue with me revoked. You spew all this ridiculous, baseless nonsense, insist repeatedly that I said and did things that as a simple matter of fact I did not and then, when all your nonsense hits a dead end...you don't even have the decency to go away. You just start arguing over a completely different topic. No. I'm not having any of that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:31 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
... Sorry but you've actually had your permission to argue with me revoked. ...

Ouch, I guess now I have to go back to actually read your last response in that long argument where you got to the point of starting to claim to be reading my mind as to what I was thinking as I was writing things.

But anyway, pointing out that you have the technical definition of "profit margin" correct is not what most people would call "arguing with you".

... be right back. ...

ikillchicken wrote:
... I have never at any point claimed that this proves they'll never sub-license. ...


... a bunch of stuff from after the argument had already started snipped.

Hold it right there. My very first response to you was:

agila61 wrote:
ikillchicken wrote:

Well, I'm not going to necessarily use a loaded term like "unethical" but you know what? Rewarding your most loyal customers by gouging them for ridiculous prices while simultaneously pushing all even vaguely budget conscious fans right out of the market is a massive dick move.

Yes lets be sure to avoid loaded terms like gouging ridiculous and dick move.

And the price gouging claim is simply untrue: price gouging is taking avantage of a supply bottle neck to push prices far above production costs. If episode production costs are $120,000 and you have a market of 3,000, they have to pay $40/episode NET of disk production and distribution costs and retailer margin to cover that cost.

It's a historical accident that there is a large enough market willing and able to pay the prices able to sustain the industry as its ad revenue collapsed. However, given that there are enough who value it that highly, they'd probably view the other alternative ~ closing up shop and going into another line of work ~ as the actual maasive dick move.


Now, its true that I at first focused on the fact that your price gouging claim is empirically false. Quite clearly, whether one likes or dislikes the ultra premium pricing point, its not price gouging.

But at the same time, there it is: pushing ALL budget conscious fans RIGHT OUT OF THE MARKET.

Exactly how would you suggest someone ought to read those words ~ remember, even though you have claimed the ability to read what is in my mind when I post, I do not make any such claim, and can only go on the words you actually post.

And given that you were posting in the context of a discussion that already included the following exchange between CG-LOVER and I myself:
agila61 wrote:
... At the risk of being on-topic, Bandai seemed to be an uneasy halfway house between R1 distributor and direct export from Japan, and it may well make more sense to just solicit bids from the independent R1 distributors, see what MG's are on offer, and then deciding which titles to license out and which titles to export directly, ...

CG-LOVER wrote:
Can't disagree with that. But of course with the fall of BANDAI Entertainment I don't think the result will actually be an independent R1 distributor taking its place.

agila61 wrote:
Of course not ~ what I said above would imply Bandai's modest output being (1) partly replaced by licenses from a variety of R1 distributors picking up different titles and (2) partly replaced by some direct export releases.

Part of the reason for saying that is that oversimplified Black/White Yes/No alternative one, a single R1 distributor picking up all of that output is not viable: first, no single R1 distributor is well enough capitalized to do that one their own, and, second, R1 distributors are only going to bid what their market model tells them it makes sense to bid, and some of what BandaiEnt release are series that a sensible independent R1 distributor simply would not have bid for.

But, some of the titles will show up in one or more distributor's market models as something they can make money from. And if they think they can make money from it, they'll put up a bid. And some of those bids will be more money than the export-only distribution model can hope to match.

Part of the reason for saying that is that oversimplified Black/White Yes/No alternative two, the Japanese distributor taking over the whole of Bandai Entertainment's output as export releases is also beyond what they are capitalized to do off the bat, and provided they start out with a mix of their own export releases and licensing out to independent R1 distributors, the market will teach them that the direct export model does not offer them more revenue across the board.


Especially given that I'd already claimed that the likely outcome is a mix of both strategies, explain to me in your impossible-to-imitate style:

"... pushing all even remotely budget conscious fans right out of the market ..."

EQUALS

"they look like they will be pursuing the import price model on at least some of their titles, but of course they could well sub-license some titles to R1 distributors resulting in some more affordable releases."

... how, exactly?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:43 am Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
Exactly how would you suggest someone ought to read those words


Yeah...you're clearly still not getting it. I absolutely am saying that Bandai is planning to always self release. That's not the same at all as saying there is "proof" they won't sub-license. That's kinda the whole point. There doesn't have to be proof they won't. If you're going to argue for something (like sub-licensing) when they haven't even mentioned it, then clearly the onus of proof is on you. You need to prove that they will rather than just demanding someone prove that they won't.

If there's no proof to confirm or deny this theory, then the rational conclusion is simply that Bandai will do precisely what they said: Do their future releases like Gundam UC. Simple as that.

Quote:
And given that you were posting in the context of a discussion that already included the following exchange between CG-LOVER and I myself:


At no point was I involved in that discussion. Once again remember that it was you who originally responded to my comment (which itself was in response to someone else entirely). Not the other way around.

Quote:
But, some of the titles will show up in one or more distributor's market models as something they can make money from. And if they think they can make money from it, they'll put up a bid. And some of those bids will be more money than the export-only distribution model can hope to match.


I'm sorry but I just don't think this kind of optimism is justified when you look at Bandai's history. There's just too many instances where they've acted wildly to the contrary to what would seem to make financial sense. Or, once again, Aniplex. I find it pretty tough to believe that they couldn't have gotten more for shows like Blue Excorcist (or Durarara or Fate/Zero) if they'd just have licensed them to Funimation. And really, even if you argue that they couldn't, your original claim doesn't fare much better. It just means that it fails for different reasons: Namely, that bids won't in fact inevitably surpass the export model because the export model is just that much more profitable. The only way your argument can possibly work is if somehow you conclude that all those shows just weren't valuable enough to be worth more in bids than via export and yet also, somehow, many of Bandai's shows totally are worth more in bids than via export. That seems pretty questionable though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Mike Hazama



Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 45
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:07 pm Reply with quote
I can't believe I read this entire thread... mostly. Skimming helps. Razz

Some things tough that caught my eye.

Top Gun wrote:
Yes, but if you look at the "hardcore" fans of US television series, they're still paying an order of magnitude less for their favorite titles than Japanese anime fans do for theirs. That's pretty much my entire point: heavily relying on a model where the only profit for a title comes from its overpriced DVD sales is absurd. When you take a look around the US television landscape, there are any number of more limited-interest series, but even their home-video releases don't go for two arms and three legs, because the producers have a model that still allows for them to make money otherwise. At the risk of sounding like a certain troll, maybe it's high time Japanese executives took a closer look at how the US and Europe make their TV shows.


You mean the non-existant American animation DVD market? Wink Dude, even if you dislike the Japanese model, don't even try to beat your chest with "America is superior" patriotism when it comes to animation, because that would be horrid. It's so flippin rare for any American cartoon to get a DVD release, and even rarer for an actual competent release. It's a miracle when any cartoon gets all its episodes released on DVD, even if it's done over shoddy singles or out-of-order boxsets. So many shows only get like a 5 episode single of random episodes so companies can stuff into Wallmart for parents to buy their kiddies to shut them up for an hour or two.

The only cartoons that even attempt a decent release are superhero cartoons.. because.. gasp.. they have that comic book nerd peripheral market who they know will probably buy anything with Batman or Spider-Man's face plastered on it.

If anything, maybe America needs to learn from Japan on how to do DVDs.. because apparently even a huge 80s hit like Ninja Turtles or Ducktales can't even get a full DVD release. Both DVD releases were cancelled for poor sales.. maybe if they did the 'more money selling to less people' thing they would have released those shows in their entirety on DVD.

Just watch this guy's video on TMNT DVDs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4CLRoGZyV0

And TMNT is one of the "better" DVD releases in America... that's sayin' something.

Also, I guess that's another market you can say they target to.. old nostalgic adults. So the only series with a decent DVD release are ones that are catered to a very specific market. Huh, funny, where have I seen this format before... Razz

And man, don't even talk about Blu-Ray. Somehow I doubt we'll see Spongebob or Doug Blu-Rays. Well, maybe Spongebob given how much Nick likes milking that series out... but still, those DVDs are all pretty shoddy and barebones.. some of those TMNT DVDs in the video dont even have a insert paper. Definitely not the same as the Japanese boxsets which come with things like figures, CDs, and other goodies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:29 pm Reply with quote
Mike Hazama wrote:
You mean the non-existant American animation DVD market? ... ...

Good point. All too often, people compare the US to Japanese anime market without considering that the overall US DVD market is dominated by very mass market movies and the most popular television series, which on the one hand also have multiple other revenue streams to sustain them and on the other hand do have the extra multiples of sales available to justify dropping down to the lower price points.

The creates a price expectation on the part of the mass market that makes it harder for more niche titles to succeed, because of the way even fans of the show would react if they saw the price point required to release a nice complete set of show with a niche market.

Especially with incomes stagnant in the US over the past decade, except for the top 1%, the US market looks like an unfriendly place for niche shows.

Luckily for the anime market, if the US market can contribute part of the income, the EU another part, other markets another part, and it adds an extra 20% to the revenue of the industry in Japan, that can help maintain a broader range and larger number of anime productions per season. If it had to rely on the US market for a dominant part of its income, it would be in serious trouble.

ikillchicken wrote:
agila61 wrote:
Exactly how would you suggest someone ought to read those words

Yeah...you're clearly still not getting it. I absolutely am saying that Bandai is planning to always self release.

A reading of the words you wrote makes it look like you conceded that you could not support that claim. It wasn't quite clear to me that you still thought that the claim was persuasive despite you being unable to provide support for it.

Quote:
That's not the same at all as saying there is "proof" they won't sub-license. That's kinda the whole point. There doesn't have to be proof they won't. If you're going to argue for something (like sub-licensing) when they haven't even mentioned it, then clearly the onus of proof is on you.

The whole point is that when you make a claim, it does not need "proof" to be persuasive, but when someone also disputes it, it does need proof? Seriously?

If you are going to argue against them ever again doing what they've already done ~ Tiger and Bunny was licensed to Viz ~ you need more than the fact that the head of the rump of Bandai Entertainment didn't discuss whether or not Bandai Entertainment would be involved in the negotiations to be able to say, "I'm automatically right unless you prove I'm wrong."

Bandai Entertainment wouldn't have been part of the Tiger & Bunny negotiations, except as a rival for the contract, because they were still an R1 publisher at the time. Whether or not they would be part of a future negotiation along those lines could well be unsettled, in which case there's no reason for Ken Iyadomi to mention it.

And whether Bandai Entertainment is involved in those type of negotiations, or is only called in for North American rights when the physical media is distributed from Japan ... doesn't say whether the Bandai group will do that again, or stop doing that and change to only doing in-house distribution.

Go ahead and claim all you want that the other side of the argument always bears the burden of proof. Based on your rules, you win. Indeed, based on your rules, you would only lose demonstrably false points like your false claim that the premium export price is price gouging. Every other point, you would always win.

Indeed, if you are going to claim that, it would be better if you claim it at the outset so that other commentators are warned that your intent is not to have a discussion, but to have a "debate" that you can declare yourself the "winner" of on the basis of "rules" that only you have agreed to.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4565
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:10 pm Reply with quote
Mike Hazama wrote:
You mean the non-existant American animation DVD market? Wink

No, I meant the market for American TV series in general, the majority of which would obviously be live-action. Sorry, but most of what you said there doesn't have much to do with what I was thinking of. Razz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 2370
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:43 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
Mike Hazama wrote:
You mean the non-existant American animation DVD market? Wink

No, I meant the market for American TV series in general, the majority of which would obviously be live-action. Sorry, but most of what you said there doesn't have much to do with what I was thinking of. Razz


Looks like you two were referring to the same thing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
superdry



Joined: 07 Jan 2012
Posts: 1309
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:59 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
Mike Hazama wrote:
You mean the non-existant American animation DVD market? Wink

No, I meant the market for American TV series in general, the majority of which would obviously be live-action. Sorry, but most of what you said there doesn't have much to do with what I was thinking of. Razz


Which, as agila61 pointed out, works much differently than anime in Japan. You can't compare the two markets (well, you can compare, but you'll see how differently they work).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:53 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
Mike Hazama wrote:
You mean the non-existant American animation DVD market? Wink

No, I meant the market for American TV series in general, the majority of which would obviously be live-action. Sorry, but most of what you said there doesn't have much to do with what I was thinking of. Razz


But with respect to the discussion of how niche titles work in the US:
Top Gun wrote:
When you take a look around the US television landscape, there are any number of more limited-interest series, but even their home-video releases don't go for two arms and three legs, because the producers have a model that still allows for them to make money otherwise.

... the flip side of that may be that if the producers can not make money otherwise, the titles simply do not get produced in the US.

In which case its a lucky historical accident for fans of anime that the Japanese market is one that could sustain a far larger range of productions so heavily dependent on BD/DVD sales than would be possible in the more mass-market driven US.

I'm one who hopes that as digital media markets mature, the anime industry will find ways to diversify their income base beyond such heavy reliance on physical media for the titles at the outer margin of viability ... but if that income had not been there as broadcast advertising revenues dried up, it could well have been a much smaller anime industry today.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dragonrider_cody



Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 2541
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:59 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
dragonrider_cody wrote:
I never said I was speaking about overall profitability of the title. That was the claim you made, not me.


Then we are clearly talking about two totally different things.

If you want to blather on about the advantages of these kinds of releases, you go right ahead. However, why you would possibly choose to go off on this in response to my comment about something completely different (overall profitability) and open by telling me I'm "completely wrong" is nothing short of mind boggling.

agila61 wrote:
Yes, technically that is correct.


Sorry but you've actually had your permission to argue with me revoked. You spew all this ridiculous, baseless nonsense, insist repeatedly that I said and did things that as a simple matter of fact I did not and then, when all your nonsense hits a dead end...you don't even have the decency to go away. You just start arguing over a completely different topic. No. I'm not having any of that.


I just see you keep picking fights over and over with different posters in this thread about incredibly stupid points that have nothing to do with original topic, saying one thing or another, than a few posts later you insist that you never said any of the things you typed even though they are clearly visible for us all to see.

Then when someone decides they are tired of arguing with you and tries to drop the argument, you jump back on blame them for everything, accuse them of lying, then start a whole different argument. I can't figure out if you are really that crazy or if you are just sitting at a computer somewhere having a good laugh at this entire thread.

Either way I don't care. If you really feel you have won all the arguments you have picked in this thread, then go ahead. Does that make you feel better about yourself?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
samuelp
Industry Insider


Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2228
Location: San Antonio, USA
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:28 pm Reply with quote
When it comes to the pricing differential for DVDs in Japan, it's actually more the US that's the outlier.

(What I'm talking about applies to all media, not just anime):

DVDs in Japan have always been extremely expensive to own. But they've also been quite reasonable to rent (on par with the old blockbuster pricing levels).

This is also true for the most part in most countries around the world, like europe and south america. (not true in asia because of rampant disc piracy, but leaving that aside...)

It was mostly only in the US where intense price competition drove down the prices of DVDs to a level where it was competitive to purchase rather than rent TV series and movies.

Therefore it's only in the US that consumers have an expectation of being able to go out and purchase DVDs for consumption and not just ownership. In Japan the cheap rental culture is pervasive, which is precisely why lowering prices on discs doesn't increase sales: There simply aren't many people outside of the biggest fans who _want_ to own DVDs at all.

That being said, the US DVD buyers market is now disappearing as well, as people trade ownership of cheap DVDs with "anytime access" VOD streaming like netflix: To most people, they just want to be able to watch their favorite movies whenever, they don't care about a physical thing on a shelf.
In Japan, it's only a matter of time until that becomes the model as well, however they've managed to use a pay per video structure instead of the subscription structure in the US.

Anyway you slice it, the market for mass-sales of low priced DVDs is disappearing. It never really existed in Japan and it's decaying from the inside in the US.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 2370
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:48 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
(What I'm talking about applies to all media, not just anime):


That looks familiar. I wonder if someone is going to waylay you with a badly mismatched price comparison to prove that you're wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:26 pm Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
... It was mostly only in the US where intense price competition drove down the prices of DVDs to a level where it was competitive to purchase rather than rent TV series and movies.


Quite. It may be that a substantial number of people in this forum do not remember how expensive pre-recorded VHS videos were when they were first introduced. Nor remember that the decline in price was not a uniform process, either: as the video stores became the primary purchasers of pre-recorded VHS tapes, the studios worked out that some releases had large enough appeal that they could release a more "mass market" friendly release and for those releases get sufficient volume to more than offset the price cut and maintain healthy profit margins.

And the balance of "cheap" pre-recorded VHS tapes were just obviously cheap ~ re-re-re-releases of pre-WWII cartoons, exercise videos, etc.

When DVD's were first released, they were a way to recapture some of the price point on the back of the substantial increase in video quality from the 360p SD VHS to the 480p SD DVD.

Quote:
Therefore it's only in the US that consumers have an expectation of being able to go out and purchase DVDs for consumption and not just ownership. In Japan the cheap rental culture is pervasive, which is precisely why lowering prices on discs doesn't increase sales: There simply aren't many people outside of the biggest fans who _want_ to own DVDs at all.

Which goes to price elasticity of demand. People who are not in the habit of ownership don't respond to the price dropping by 50% ... and by the same token, the fact that DVD ownership is uncommon supports the elan and status of having a collection. The substantially bigger revenue titles make a lot of the additional revenue on the back of merchandise royalties.

Compare that to manga. In a population that relies heavily on common carrier transport for the commute to work, its not surprising that there are manga that you can buy with 200pp. for under US$10 and the different manga cover every subject under the sun. Buy a serial on the way to catch the train, flip through, read a chapter of a series you recognize ... if its a serial and once you've finished the series you're interested in, you wouldn't be really concerned to be sure it got home with you.


Last edited by agila61 on Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:44 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
The whole point is that when you make a claim, it does not need "proof" to be persuasive, but when someone also disputes it, it does need proof? Seriously?


Not at all. You're trying to frame this as if I'm stating that universally my claims don't require proof but yours do. However, that's obviously not the case. It has nothing to do with who's making the claim. Rather, it's the type of claim. If one is to claim that something is the case then they need proof to support that. This is because if there is no proof, the rational default conclusion would be that it is not the case.

Hence, when you say "they will sub-license" it falls on you to prove it rather than demanding I disprove it. Again, this is not a me vs you thing. After all, it would be the opposite if I were to claim something is the case. For example: When I claim that they will self release shows in the future, it falls on me to prove it (and I have, the article says so). I couldn't merely demand that you prove me wrong though. That would be insufficient just as it is when you demand I prove they won't sub-license.

Quote:
If you are going to argue against them ever again doing what they've already done ~ Tiger and Bunny was licensed to Viz ~ you need more than the fact that the head of the rump of Bandai Entertainment didn't discuss whether or not Bandai Entertainment would be involved in the negotiations to be able to say, "I'm automatically right unless you prove I'm wrong."


I don't think "they've done it before" is a very strong argument. Evidently things are changing drastically for Bandai. They're completely changing their business model. The fact that in the past they might have licensed to someone else really has very little bearing on what they plan to do now.

Also, I should mention here that if your entire argument boils down to them one time licensing to another company then at best this is just pedantry. Even if we accept what you're saying to be true, whether they self release 100% of their shows or self release 95% and some tiny fraction of the time sub-license, it's a pretty insignificant distinction.

dragonrider_cody wrote:
I just see you keep picking fights over and over with different posters in this thread


You're actually the one who responded to my post and what's more, chose to do so by telling me I was "completely wrong". But yeah. Clearly I'm the one picking a fight with you. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
saying one thing or another, than a few posts later you insist that you never said any of the things you typed even though they are clearly visible for us all to see.


Okay, here's what were gonna do: You go ahead and tell me specifically where I "clearly visibly said one thing and then insisted I didn't". Actually quote these apparent glaring contradictions instead of just bitching about them vaguely. Do that, or kindly admit that you're full of shit and shut the hell up already. I'm getting sick of listening to people like you people flail about and make accusations without even attempting to substantiate them.

Quote:
Either way I don't care. If you really feel you have won all the arguments you have picked in this thread, then go ahead. Does that make you feel better about yourself?


Please, spare me your pathetic attempts to act like you're just so above it all. If you honestly didn't care you'd just go away. But no, you're still here cause you've just gotta get that last word in.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Display posts from previous:   
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous    Next
Page 29 of 31

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group