×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Funimation Sues A.D. Vision, Sentai, Others for US$8 Million


Goto page Previous    Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
NegativeGate



Joined: 06 Nov 2011
Posts: 48
Location: Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:49 am Reply with quote
Sunday Silence wrote:
enurtsol wrote:
Hahaha, let the jury decide!


Some hope that on that jury is a disgruntled Otaku with a hard-on hate for FUNi and manages to at least make it a mistrial.


In the end I don't think that would help the situation at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
ConanSan



Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 1818
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:44 am Reply with quote
Sunday Silence wrote:
enurtsol wrote:
Hahaha, let the jury decide!


Some hope that on that jury is a disgruntled Otaku with a hard-on hate for FUNi and manages to at least make it a mistrial.
Yes, because the sooner the Black Future of $600/season boxsets comes, the better, eh?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14746
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:10 am Reply with quote
silentjay wrote:
enurtsol wrote:
metroid24 wrote:
dang i hope they come with a settlemnt like a few gs cause last thing i want is another company to get shut down 1st it was geneon thanks to universel for that


Why do you blame Universal for that?


It's because the parent company in Japan is now known as Geneon Universal, but that merger didn't happen until long after Pioneer shut down Geneon USA.


Yep, that seems to be the confusion, but it wasn't Pioneer who shut down Geneon USA neither. In 2003, Pioneer sold Pioneer USA to Japanese advertising agency giant Dentsu, hence the necessary change to a new name Geneon USA. In 2007, it was Dentsu who shut down Geneon USA, then in 2008, sold Geneon Japan to Universal, thus now Geneon Universal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LagannImpact



Joined: 03 Apr 2009
Posts: 574
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:48 am Reply with quote
Wow, this month has really sucked so far! How in the hell can any of this be any good for the industry?

The only way I can see that it might be so is if Funi can parlay the $8 million into dubs for Hellsing Ultimate and Black Lagoon. Other than that, screw this news!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blashyrkh66



Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:00 pm Reply with quote
I'll admit that I only got through the first few pages, but my head started to hurt and I just hit reply. My head was hurting because I work in the entertainment industry (for full disclosure it has been for live action companies, not anime but I am close to the industry) and reading many of the comments here made me facepalm myself so hard I may have a concussion now.

Now some of my comments will sound like I am siding with Funimation and that is not necessarily true because I am not privy to all the facts and do not know how this lawsuit will be settled. However, I don't believe they would have filed the lawsuit without it having some sort of merit and I have worked at companies on both ends of situations where these sort of shenanigans have gone on so I have insight as to what most likely happened here.

It is obvious that some posters have no experience in the matters that govern things like business and lawsuits, or even working a normal job. The idea that Funimation are bullies or some evil business empire for trying to recover an $8 million debt is insane. Would you work for free? Take it to a personal level - if I owed you $5000 would you just forgive it and never ask for it back because you don't want to be "greedy" or "evil"? Heck, if one of your buddies owed you $20 would you just give it up? And what about all the Funimation employees whose jobs could be at risk because someone may have pulled some shady business deals to snake out of a debt? And I didn't read too many people questioning the morality of what possibly could have been dispersing ADV properties severely under market value amongst a bunch of new companies that just so happened to be owned by people from ADV (basically screwing everyone you owe money to but still essentially keeping the same company together). So it's OK to rip people off, but if you are ripped off you are horrible for asking for your money back?

Also the idea that Funimation are trying to sue smaller competitors out of business, either because they have more to spend on lawyers or because they are bullies or for any other reason is ridiculous. First off, Funimation may be big for an Anime company, but in 2012 being a big Anime company does not make you a big company in the world as a whole. I have worked for companies as big as they are and let me tell you, they are much smaller than you think. They aren't GE or Walmart or BP or Exxon for gods sake! Funimation cannot afford to pay for frivolous lawsuits and out wait people in court. They would only file a lawsuit if it had some sort of legitimacy. If it was truly without merit, not only would they face an almost certain loss in court (and money spent on lawyers and the other parties legal fees) but they face a counter suit that could break their company.

I am also shocked at the calls that Funimation should stop the lawsuit because it may hurt the Anime industry in America. First off, regardless of the "health of the industry", if this is a suit of merit they should sue them, and I know that there was an attempt to solve this by other means before a suit was filed because no one wants to pay for lawyers. But what really drives me crazy, not just on this point but on some people posting any comments at all, is that in the back of my head I know that some of the posters don't pay for a lot (if any) of what they watch, so frankly you have no right to complain about the health of the Anime industry.

Considering that downloading is rampant, RAMPANT, in Anime fandom (not to mention physical DVD bootlegs), let's all take a look in the mirror and see what is really hurting Anime in the US (and worldwide). It's people not paying for it. It's some of you reading this or posting here that aren't paying for it. If you aren't buying it (physical or digital) or renting it (physical or digital) or paying for it somehow - YOU are the one destroying Anime in the US. I am sure some people will say many posters do not illegally download, but if we were all being honest here...well, we know what's up. The sense of entitlement to both watch everything someone may want regardless of whether or not they can pay for it (these do cost money to make folks) and to think they have a right to any sort of Anime fandom/industry/whatever when a large chunk of the audience doesn't financially support it is gross. Not to mention the screwed up logic that Funimation should give up $8 million just so some "fans" can continue to download torrents of a rip that someone else did of another companies DVD's...aargh!

I'm sure there was a bunch of other stuff that infuriated me but I'm almost done for now. But when you look at issues happening with this or Media Blasters or Viz or Bandai or any other company, know this. Some of it is their fault, some of it is big retails fault (*cough* Best Buy *cough*). But a lot of it, maybe even most of it, is the lack of support from the people who consume it. If the industry was shrinking because Anime wasn't as popular that would be one thing. But go to Anime Expo or Otakon or many other conventions and you know that a lack of audience is not the issue here.

/rant
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:48 pm Reply with quote
blash:
Quote:
The idea that Funimation are bullies or some evil business empire for trying to recover an $8 million debt is insane. Would you work for free?


Well, if you were conned into it, probably. Look at all the ex-writers for Huffpo. But then ADV won't get paid for its own dubs and DVD authorings on those shows it paid its own money to acquire, before Sojitz screwed them over, so I guess it's fair.

Quote:
Take it to a personal level - if I owed you $5000 would you just forgive it and never ask for it back because you don't want to be "greedy" or "evil"?


If I could afford to, yes. I don't really get why people keep assuming that FUNi's being honest, and not just cooking up numbers. Again, did you not just remember the ass-whooping TV Tokyo got in court on trying to get its "money" back, only to find out that 4Kids did honor its end of the contract? And 4Kids was in a lot worse shape than Sentai.

Quote:
And what about all the Funimation employees whose jobs could be at risk because someone may have pulled some shady business deals to snake out of a debt?


If their jobs are at risk, then FUNi's to blame for taking on that type of debt in the first place.

Quote:
Also the idea that Funimation are trying to sue smaller competitors out of business, either because they have more to spend on lawyers or because they are bullies or for any other reason is ridiculous.


Yes, because corporations never do that.

Quote:
If it was truly without merit, not only would they face an almost certain loss in court (and money spent on lawyers and the other parties legal fees) but they face a counter suit that could break their company.


And I'll really miss their shitty harem titles if that happens. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
is that in the back of my head I know that many (if not most) of the posters don't pay for a lot of what they watch, if any, so frankly you have no right to complain about the health of the Anime industry.


Well, we pay for Sentai stuff, anyway.

Quote:
Considering that downloading is rampant, RAMPANT, in Anime fandom (not to mention physical DVD bootlegs), let's all take a look in the mirror and see what is really hurting Anime in the US (and worldwide).


Even Justin's getting sick of that straw man. The real problem is the Japanese execs are trying to cash in on overpriced crap no one in either country's buying at the rate they want, for some reason, and so they're resorting to scorched earth tactics, because they can't have their way. The fact that Bandai Visual was willing to shut down its American subsidiary, even though there was finally a market for the original Gundam-their flagship title-is irresponsible and petty. They didn't care that people were willing to pay more for boxsets than singles. They just wanted people to buy the shows they determined to be worth owning. So if you want to point fingers at pirates, then how about starting with these middle-men first?

Quote:
If you aren't buying it (physical or digital) or renting it (physical or digital) or paying for it somehow - YOU are the one destroying Anime in the US.


Oh, I'm sorry. Are we the ones underpaying animators by forcing them to work for only slightly more than minimum wage, and without union representation? Because I don't see any of that One Piece and Evangelion money going to them, and those franchises are worth billions in Japan.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
blashyrkh66



Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:23 pm Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:


blashyrkh66 wrote:
Take it to a personal level - if I owed you $5000 would you just forgive it and never ask for it back because you don't want to be "greedy" or "evil"?


If I could afford to, yes.


Spoken like someone who has never lent anyone $5000.

GATSU wrote:


blashyrkh66 wrote:
And what about all the Funimation employees whose jobs could be at risk because someone may have pulled some shady business deals to snake out of a debt?


If their jobs are at risk, then FUNi's to blame for taking on that type of debt in the first place.


This logic blames victims for crimes committed against them. "it's her fault for drinking too much" Rolling Eyes Running a business is a risk unto itself. Making a business decision on good faith and then having the other party be shady is not the first parties "fault"

GATSU wrote:


blashyrkh66 wrote:
Also the idea that Funimation are trying to sue smaller competitors out of business, either because they have more to spend on lawyers or because they are bullies or for any other reason is ridiculous.


Yes, because corporations never do that.


Apples and oranges. That is Sony and Universal (and Disney) who are giant corporations, not two small Anime companies. By the way, as silly as it looks now that was a landmark copyright case that the complainants believed had merit, not just a random lawsuit trying to wring money out of Sony.

GATSU wrote:


blashyrkh66 wrote:
If it was truly without merit, not only would they face an almost certain loss in court (and money spent on lawyers and the other parties legal fees) but they face a counter suit that could break their company.


And I'll really miss their shitty harem titles if that happens. Rolling Eyes

blashyrkh66 wrote:
is that in the back of my head I know that many (if not most) of the posters don't pay for a lot of what they watch, if any, so frankly you have no right to complain about the health of the Anime industry.


Well, we pay for Sentai stuff, anyway.


Thanks, that really addressed what I was saying.

GATSU wrote:


blashyrkh66 wrote:
Considering that downloading is rampant, RAMPANT, in Anime fandom (not to mention physical DVD bootlegs), let's all take a look in the mirror and see what is really hurting Anime in the US (and worldwide).


Even Justin's getting sick of that straw man. The real problem is the Japanese execs are trying to cash in on overpriced crap no one in either country's buying at the rate they want, for some reason, and so they're resorting to scorched earth tactics, because they can't have their way. The fact that Bandai Visual was willing to shut down its American subsidiary, even though there was finally a market for the original Gundam-their flagship title-is irresponsible and petty. They didn't care that people were willing to pay more for boxsets than singles. They just wanted people to buy the shows they determined to be worth owning. So if you want to point fingers at pirates, then how about starting with these middle-men first?

blashyrkh66 wrote:
If you aren't buying it (physical or digital) or renting it (physical or digital) or paying for it somehow - YOU are the one destroying Anime in the US.


Oh, I'm sorry. Are we the ones underpaying animators by forcing them to work for only slightly more than minimum wage, and without union representation? Because I don't see any of that One Piece and Evangelion money going to them, and those franchises are worth billions in Japan.


That "straw" is reality. You and I and everyone else knows it. To dismiss it by bringing up the Japanese licensors being greedy (which I agree that they usually want too much for a license) is intellectually dishonest at best. Saying that a problem isn't a problem just because there are other problems as well is failed logic. Three wrongs don't make a right. Somehow, before the sharp incline of piracy, Anime companies in the US did pretty good despite the evil Japanese companies and "middlemen". So what is the biggest issue here? Please do not tell me you really believe this shallow justification for stealing.

I have worked for different high profile independent film companies and we don't have underpaid animators or licensors who want too much, and none of us wanted a ridiculous price for our films. All of the companies saw the floor fall out and it happened as downloading of film became more prominent. And sure, the economy is an issue too, but that is definitely not the only issue. It's just the facts. I am also a fan as well as being on the inside (it's why I got on the inside!) so I'm not just some guy in an office, I know what is going on around me. I am lucky to be with one of the companies who survived, but I know we'd be making more if everyone who saw our films actually paid to do so.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blashyrkh66



Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:02 pm Reply with quote
BTW, you brought up Bandai. The American company had a lot going on behind the scenes including getting screwed by a big retailer for millions of dollars. They were not being petty and anything if irresponsible. You can only get hit so many times before you throw in the towel.

I know some people take this stuff personally, but only the dumbest company ever would close a profitable division just to hurt the fans lol or resort to scorched earth tactics because they "can't have their way". That's not the case here. They were losing money or not making any and closed. That's it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dragonrider_cody



Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 2541
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:47 pm Reply with quote
blashyrkh66 wrote:
GATSU wrote:


blashyrkh66 wrote:
Take it to a personal level - if I owed you $5000 would you just forgive it and never ask for it back because you don't want to be "greedy" or "evil"?


If I could afford to, yes.


Spoken like someone who has never lent anyone $5000.

GATSU wrote:


blashyrkh66 wrote:
And what about all the Funimation employees whose jobs could be at risk because someone may have pulled some shady business deals to snake out of a debt?


If their jobs are at risk, then FUNi's to blame for taking on that type of debt in the first place.


This logic blames victims for crimes committed against them. "it's her fault for drinking too much" Rolling Eyes Running a business is a risk unto itself. Making a business decision on good faith and then having the other party be shady is not the first parties "fault"

GATSU wrote:


blashyrkh66 wrote:
Also the idea that Funimation are trying to sue smaller competitors out of business, either because they have more to spend on lawyers or because they are bullies or for any other reason is ridiculous.



First of all, Funimation states that thy believed ADV was insolvent and used Texas laws to restructure their company to escape their creditors. If they believed ADV was truly insolvent and unable pay a debt, then why take that on as creditor? Either they were hoping to be able to use against a major competitor, or they were hoping to buy ADVs assets on the cheap should they go bankrupt.

True, I don't think Funimation was planning on ADV execs to find outside financing and buy assets from the company, but that doesn't mean they are completely innocent and acted in good faith. If they truly believed that ADV was insolvent, they wouldn't have taken on any debt owed by the company in hopes of actualy collecting it. Quite frankly, that's just stupid. There is a reason why the book publishers wouldn't extend lines of credit to Borders.

It appears that while Funimation may have a right to collect this debt, which they will have to prove in court, there are other motives behind this than just cashing in. If they were merely after money, then why wait nearly four years to pursue legal action? Why even agree to take on the debt in the first place? And perhaps most tellingly about what they believe the strength of their case is, why ask for a jury hearing?

If you truly believe that Funi is doing this solely collect a debt they believe they are owed, and the fact that they may do permanent and possibly fatal damage to their most active competitor has nothing to do with it, than you are just naive. And if Funimation has put themselves into a position where they are absolutely dependant on winning a lawsuit to keep people employed, then they only have themselves to blame for that, especially after four years of being unable to collect it. A debt to an insolvent company should never be factored into your financial plans, whether you have a good chance of collecting or not.

I do agree that illegal downloading and streaming has done a lot of damage to the home entertainment industry, not just anime. A lot of independent film operators have been hit hard, downsized, or even closed completely. Even some more major outfits like Anchor Bay have been bleeding cash for years now.

Funimation has a lot to prove in their case. First they will have to prove they are owed the debt and they have a right to collect it. They will also have to prove the amount they are claiming. They will also have to prove that ADVs assets were sold off to escape creditors and that they were sold off below market value. Proving that they were sold below value will be difficult because as you've stated the entire home video industry is struggling. Even Funimation was sold for what one would consider significantly below market value recently and took quite some time to find a buyer at even that price.

We don't know what the assets were sold for, or whether or not they were sold below value or not. How do you determine the value of a heavily indebted home video distributor with a VOD network? The only things we've really heard are the rumors that some Japanese investors put up some money to help keep them running and our market competitive (whether that is true or not we will likely never know).

Very few people here are saying the lawsuit is without merit. They are right to question any other motives in it though. As a fan, why they should care if Funimation has a little more money in their pockets if their actions do long term damage to the R1 anime industry? I don't think anyone has been able to make an argument as to how Funimation winning could be good for the anime industry. There have plenty of cases made for how much damage it could cause if they win. Funi having run of the R1 market is good for no one but them.

As a fan my only concern is about what is good for the anime industry as a whole, and this lawsuit certainly does good for no one. As a business man, I can sympathize with Funi's position, but I've also been around the block enough times to know that this isn't just about collecting a debt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:29 am Reply with quote
blashy:
Quote:
Spoken like someone who has never lent anyone $5000.


Well, I don't see anyone who lent money to FUNi to get the original Dragonball on the air in the 90s getting paid back. So I'm not sure why Sentai has to subsidize FUNi's failure with Sgt. Frog.

Quote:
This logic blames victims for crimes committed against them. "it's her fault for drinking too much" Running a business is a risk unto itself.


Thus supporting the argument you disagreed with.

Quote:
Making a business decision on good faith and then having the other party be shady is not the first parties "fault"


It is when you know they're shady, but you choose to cash in, anyway. Like the people behind the housing bubble.

Quote:
That is Sony and Universal (and Disney) who are giant corporations, not two small Anime companies.


So anime companies can't be as unethical as giant corporations? Tell that to NewType and Sojitz when they tried to blackmail ADV into paying more money by threatening to take away their rights to legally acquired properties.

Quote:
Thanks, that really addressed what I was saying.


That actually did.

Quote:
To dismiss it by bringing up the Japanese licensors being greedy (which I agree that they usually want too much for a license) is intellectually dishonest at best. Saying that a problem isn't a problem just because there are other problems as well is failed logic.


Yes, because being able to legally buy and watch anime you actually want, but knowing everyone who acually worked on it will still be no better off if you do, is totally not relevant.

Quote:
Three wrongs don't make a right.


There's an irony to your comment, but you don't seem to realize it.

Quote:
Three wrongs don't make a right. Somehow, before the sharp incline of piracy, Anime companies in the US did pretty good despite the evil Japanese companies and "middlemen". So what is the biggest issue here? Please do not tell me you really believe this shallow justification for stealing.


Aren't the Japanese companies "stealing" off of animation studios? Much like record companies try to claim the money goes to the "artist", but winds up paying "expenses".

Quote:
I have worked for different high profile independent film companies and we don't have underpaid animators or licensors who want too much, and none of us wanted a ridiculous price for our films. All of the companies saw the floor fall out and it happened as downloading of film became more prominent.


Or maybe your products just weren't compelling anymore. No one ever wants to admit that, even though that's clearly the reason legal downloads are such a thriving business. Because today's movies and music are made to be disposable, rather than with the intention of being keepers, so it's a vicious circle to the bottom. It's nice that you did get paid, but these animators are not so lucky, and they're in an industry which is still pretty profitable from at least the merchandising POV.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:44 pm Reply with quote
I see this to be Ledford's "phoenix company" move has finally come home to roost. Nobody was fooled when he burned ADV only to come back doing the same thing, but with three seperate companies and continue to make a profit hoping to get away with not settling ADV's debts. It was a cowboy move that has caught up to him. Ledford and Levy both drink in the same saloon it seems.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dragonrider_cody



Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 2541
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:44 pm Reply with quote
One of the primary reasons Sentai rose out of the ashes of ADV so to speak is because some Japanese licensors didn't want Funimation to end up with a virtual monopoly on the US market. I doubt those same licensors are going to let them go down easily.

Only one main distributor in the US does them no good. There would be no competition for licenses, so lower fees and profit percentages to them. Not to mention it would make it far more likely that more niche shows would be passed over.

Japan may be the primary market for anime, but the US is still the number two market and the primary sources of English dubs for home video. There are still some license holders that care about business in our market.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:19 am Reply with quote
dragonrider:
Quote:
One of the primary reasons Sentai rose out of the ashes of ADV so to speak is because some Japanese licensors didn't want Funimation to end up with a virtual monopoly on the US market.


I don't think the licensors cared, as long as they got paid, and could have their accountants make up money owed them, which is what TV Tokyo tried to do to 4Kids, and what Sojitz wants to succeed in doing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
dragonrider_cody



Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 2541
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:09 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
dragonrider:
Quote:
One of the primary reasons Sentai rose out of the ashes of ADV so to speak is because some Japanese licensors didn't want Funimation to end up with a virtual monopoly on the US market.


I don't think the licensors cared, as long as they got paid, and could have their accountants make up money owed them, which is what TV Tokyo tried to do to 4Kids, and what Sojitz wants to succeed in doing.


Actually, some do care or they never wouldn't have helped Sentai out in the first place. They are businesses. They care about profits. If there is only one major company in R1, then it's less likely their titles will be licensed.

There is also less competition for licenses, so licensing fees tend to be lower. Currently if Funi doesn't want to pay what a Japanese company wants for a title, Sentai might. However, if Sentai isnt there to bid on a title, Funimation could just wait until the rights holders are willing to accept what they offer, or you may have to wait even longer for someone smaller to make a play for it.

Also, it's been made clear a few times that it's not Sojitz attempting to collect the debt, but Funimation. The debt was transferred to Funimation so it's now their responsibility. Sojitz is multibillion dollar corporation. Any losses from ARM were probably written off when it was shut down and it's licenses transferred to Funi.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 3804
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:04 am Reply with quote
dragonrider_cody wrote:
There is also less competition for licenses, so licensing fees tend to be lower. Currently if Funi doesn't want to pay what a Japanese company wants for a title, Sentai might. However, if Sentai isnt there to bid on a title, Funimation could just wait until the rights holders are willing to accept what they offer, or you may have to wait even longer for someone smaller to make a play for it.


Waiting out the production committees isn't without its costs, though. If you delay the R1 release too long, there won't be enough demand remaining to justify the license. Complaints about how long it takes for shows to appear in R1 have been a perennial feature of fan discussions for as long as I can remember. With the expansion of simulcasted streaming, fans will have even less incentive to wait patiently for a physical release.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous    Next
Page 15 of 16

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group