×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
NEWS: 5 Anime Studios Sue 4 'Heavy Downloaders' in Singapore


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Cenebi



Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:59 am Reply with quote
I am going to have to agree with Anon-Onii here.

Yes, companies have every right to protect their product. At the same time, the shear number of fansubbing groups and downloaders should be a clue that people are unwilling to pay for a very nearly outdated form of media (DVDs).

The announcement of Naruto being streamed online is exactly what they should be doing. Most TV stations in America do that already, and I really don't see why the same thing can't succeed with anime.

Another option that was already suggested is a monthly fee for direct downloads, which would most likely work.

I for one, do not want to pay for the quality of product they are releasing. The fact that a good amount of fansubs are actually higher video quality than DVDs (To say nothing of the quality of translation and subbing, which in my opinion is also usually better) should be a clue that the anime industry, at least in America, needs to wake up.

For those of you saying that we should all be good little boys/girls and buy DVDs to "support the anime industry" I will say this: That's not how business works.

If people purchased goods to support the people selling them, big business would not cause small businesses to close down, and Walmart would not be the most successful business on the planet.

People spend money on goods because they want the goods. Who they buy it from (or if they buy it at all) is influenced by 1: The quality of the goods, and 2: the price of the goods. Can companies like Funimation and Viz really be surprised that they're losing sales to a cheaper, higher quality product? I, for one, don't want to pay for dubbed anime, I want to pay for subbed anime. Why should I have to pay extra for a DVD just because someone else wants English voices on it? It goes both ways. If someone likes dubs, why should they have to pay for subs?

Again, I am not saying they have no right to protect their products. They have every right to stop people downloading illegally. But if we have the responsibility to support them buy buying from them, they have the responsibility to not let us down with terrible dubs (One Piece anyone?), outdated media, and overpriced products.

If the anime industry wants our money, they need to find better ways to get it, not attempt to force us to pay for a product that isn't worth our money.

Okay, I should stop ranting now, before it turns into a rant about subs vs dubs, which is apparently beating a dead horse.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Big Hed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1607
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:01 am Reply with quote
spoon89 wrote:
i can't blame those dudes that ignored the warning letter, they just wanted their own share of anime and would even go against the law for that goal Shocked , but my goodness, this isn't the first time that this kind of action has been taken and i am absolutely not surprised that it took place in singapore, that country has a hell lot of laws Surprised


Oh wow Laughing

Anon-Onii wrote:
You can argue that nothing that is illegal can be legitimized, but there exist shades of grey. An example I would make would be if the government banned electric and hybrid cars to protect the current model of petrol and oil. Would it be wrong for people to secretly use those cars? Wouldnt that show demand exists for change, and that the oil industry is outdated, just like the current anime distribution system? For people that are satisifed with dubs and DVDs, they will still be available, just like oil and petrol would still be available alongside hybrids. A stronger but less relevant example would involve Nazi germany..


I'll humor the first part of this paragraph (nice job remembering to capitalize 'Nazi' but not 'Germany', by the way). I don't think Greed was arguing that there exist no "shades of gray" for the workability of different anime distribution models. The point he was arguing -- as has been argued a million times before in fansub debates -- is that DVDs currently satisfy the preferences of fansub fans in terms of how they like to watch their anime: subtitled. Distribution may be slow, and prices may seem a little expensive, but the fact remains that a legal avenue exists for watching anime as fansubbers like to. If you still insist on watching fansubs because they release faster, fine, but then you'd damn well better buy the DVDs anyway, because you owe the creators their due.

Your car analogy is invalid. The anime debate refers to the perceived "right" of fansubbers to make use of anime for free rather than pay for it at all, whereas banning electric/hybrid motors would not in anyway limit people from purchasing a car or other vehicle with which to travel. In fact, since the infrastructure associate with internal combustion powered vehicles is more developed, it is cheaper to use (not that I'm against electric cars or anything).

Cenebi wrote:

If the anime industry wants our money, they need to find better ways to get it, not attempt to force us to pay for a product that isn't worth our money.


Fine. In the meantime, don't watch anime if you aren't going to pay for it. To bring up another belabored point: you don't hear dub fans complaining when they purchase bilingual discs, do you?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Cenebi



Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:11 am Reply with quote
Good job completely ignoring my argument altogether, instead focusing on the fact that I download anime, which is irrelevant to my argument's validity.

Quote:
To bring up another belabored point: you don't hear dub fans complaining when they purchase bilingual discs, do you?


I wasn't even aware they made bilingual discs, and I'm sure if they could buy a cheaper DVD that had only their own language on it, they would.

To clarify, I don't think I have the right to download anime, nor do the fansubbers have the right to sub them. What I do, and what I have the right to do are not always quite the same.


Last edited by Cenebi on Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:22 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
samuelp
Industry Insider


Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2228
Location: San Antonio, USA
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:20 am Reply with quote
Shadowrun20XX wrote:
fighterholic wrote:
Shadowrun20XX wrote:
fighterholic wrote:
samuelp wrote:
I'd just like to say that this is clearly a case of discrimination.

Why are they only prosecuting people with weight disorders? And don't tell me "because they're easier to catch", because I've heard that one before and it's not funny.

I'm sorry?
Heavy Downloaders,get it? Laughing

Hardly Confused If he was trying to be funny, he wasn't...
It was pretty dry.Funny though.

Anyway.

How many people download? Millions do.Everyday.

How many people get caught each year? People here and there do,few if any.

So when exactly,are the millions of downloaders supposed to fear this propaganda? IMO It's a dream of an impossible justice.They would have to do something pretty damn drastic to stop all these people.And even after they have sued these 4 heavy downloaders,I still don't think they'll have the money to do it.

Just to counter argue: The population of Singapore is 4.5 million. Probably no more than 100,000 have ever downloaded anime (maybe much lower, but then again anime is pretty popular there).

Might be impossible to police it worldwide, but in a totalitarian city-state like singapore they could very well prosecute ~2% of all downloaders and believe me, that's enough to scare people.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:49 am Reply with quote
Greed1914 wrote:
ikillchicken wrote:
The music industry went through the exact same cycle. Piracy became a problem, they tried lawsuits, it didn't work and really only turned into a big old mess. Eventually they realized that they needed to adapt to new customer demands and began moving towards digital distribution. I had been hopeful that the anime industry could simply learn from this and avoid the messy middle step. They seemed to be doing that with the recent developments, most notably the news about Naruto. It's a shame to see them suddenly resorting to such ass-backwards methods now.


There is nothing "sudden" about it. This has happened before, with these same people even. Also, the music industry still sues people. Sure adapting is probably going to turn out better, but if a company isn't willing to protect its property then why bother making it? Offering a sensible legal means and then bringing punishment when people refuse to use it makes sense.


Yes, but then they haven't really done that quite yet especially not in Singapore. They are right on the border of it here which is great news. However, for folks who live in Singapore they are still largely left in a position to either buy poor quality, excessively priced DVDs or illegally download. Once there is truly a reasonable alternative, then I would agree that lawsuits are reasonable as a means to discourage people who will still cling to illegal methods for very little reason.

Quote:
I guess I just don't understand how people can complain when a company exercises its legal right to protect its material.


It comes down to two main points:

-The punishment is excessive. I don't know the exact circumstances surrounding this case, but generally speaking, companies are able to sue for far more than is a reasonable. The reality is that a huge group of people download. That doesn't make it right but to randomly single out a handful of people over it and stick them with massive fines is not an appropriate punishment.

-It doesn't do any good. In a million years you could never sue every downloader or even a decent portion of them. So as I said, all you're really doing is just picking out a random few to make examples of. That really doesn't help though. Nobody cares that there's a tiny tiny chance you might get sued. It's far too unlikely to actually dissuade anyone. What it does however do is piss people of and breed contempt and animosity between customer and business.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Big Hed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1607
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:49 am Reply with quote
Cenebi wrote:

To clarify, I don't think I have the right to download anime, nor do the fansubbers have the right to sub them. What I do, and what I have the right to do are not always quite the same.


So let me get this straight: you download anime for free, and because you admit to doing so your argument is just?

I understand that current models of distribution for anime are to some extent, outdated. This doesn't change the fact that they are legal, whereas current digital distribution channels largely aren't (specifically, where fansubs are concerned). I was going to bring the Naruto example up in my previous post but decided not to for the sake of brevity, but I agree that it is a step in the right direction.

Having said this, in instances where the only legal purchasing options is DVDs, you have an obligation to buy them for a given series if you have watched it via fansubs. You can't watch fansubs and not return anything to the creators. To quote your post -- "That's not how business works."

samuelp wrote:
Just to counter argue: The population of Singapore is 4.5 million. Probably no more than 100,000 have ever downloaded anime (maybe much lower, but then again anime is pretty popular there).

Might be impossible to police it worldwide, but in a totalitarian city-state like singapore they could very well prosecute ~2% of all downloaders and believe me, that's enough to scare people.


Yes, Singapore is uniquely positioned to fight fansubs on a national level, I think. Its population is relatively small, not to mention very dense, and the country has an extremely efficient legal system. Enough people could be prosecuted in Singapore to steer the anime community as a whole there away from fansubs.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Anon-Onii



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 4
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:02 am Reply with quote
Big Hed wrote:
I'll humor the first part of this paragraph (nice job remembering to capitalize 'Nazi' but not 'Germany', by the way). I don't think Greed was arguing that there exist no "shades of gray" for the workability of different anime distribution models. The point he was arguing -- as has been argued a million times before in fansub debates -- is that DVDs currently satisfy the preferences of fansub fans in terms of how they like to watch their anime: subtitled. Distribution may be slow, and prices may seem a little expensive, but the fact remains that a legal avenue exists for watching anime as fansubbers like to. If you still insist on watching fansubs because they release faster, fine, but then you'd damn well better buy the DVDs anyway, because you owe the creators their due.

Your car analogy is invalid. The anime debate refers to the perceived "right" of fansubbers to make use of anime for free rather than pay for it at all, whereas banning electric/hybrid motors would not in anyway limit people from purchasing a car or other vehicle with which to travel. In fact, since the infrastructure associate with internal combustion powered vehicles is more developed, it is cheaper to use (not that I'm against electric cars or anything).


Well, while I thank you for humoring me and my errant capitalization, I have to say that if, as you believe, the argument is that "DVDs currently satisfy the preferences of fansub fans in terms of how they like to watch their anime", that's fine. But I am arguing for the complete opposite. It may satisfy how I want to watch my anime, but not at all how I want to pay for it. It does not satisfy my preferences. Do I buy the limited edition version of every album release that comes out for an extra $20? No, because all I want is the music. Dubs and DVDs are necessary to some, that's perfectly fine, but for many all they want and need is the raw anime with subtitles. Such a product is not on offer.

You say "distribution may be slow, and prices may seem a little expensive" as if it is a trivial thing. Perhaps not to you. But for some, those reasons are enough motivation to bring them to commit an illegal act by downloading a fansub. In today's world such piracy may seem trivial and irresponsible, but to many it is motivated by strong feelings of discontent for what is on offer. Its not that there's no willingness to pay for anime, its that we don't want to pay for dubs and pieces of plastic. The real motivation is a genuine love for anime.

Finally, maybe some people do argue for a 'right' to fansubs, but I don't. I'm saying that official, legitimate subbed files are the future, just like electric cars (*probably*), and unlike my car example, the infrastructure is in place! That's what fansubbing is. Only a few tweaks are needed to make it profitable. The shades of gray aren't for the model's workability, its about the wrongness of downloading a fansub when its so easy for companies to make it legitimate and profitable at the same time with subs of their own. There is an element of anarchy and illegality, but legitimacy? That's a moral question, and perceptions of morality always differ

In the end the point I can agree with is that these arguments have probably been made a million times. I've already posted way more than I planned to, so that's enough outta me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
melonbread



Joined: 09 Jan 2008
Posts: 317
Location: UK (London)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:10 am Reply with quote
Greed1914 wrote:
melonbread wrote:
This is not the way to solve the problem.


How about an alternative solution instead of a simple statement? And while it may not "solve" the problem, it's always a good idea for companies to let people know that they will protect their products.



It's a well know fact that going after downloaders does nothing to solve the problem. At all. If you're going after anyone you need to go to the people who run illegal streaming/download websites, or people uploading vast amounts of anime, but that's really not any kind of solution either.

The solution is putting out a product faster than that of the fansubbers, as we're seeing happen finally.

I was going to write in my original post that I thought the anime companies were just sueing these people for the money, but I just decided to post a statement.

Why act all high and mighty about it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Big Hed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1607
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:26 am Reply with quote
Anon-Onii wrote:
The real motivation is a genuine love for anime.


Love of anime is not a justification for theft of anime.

Anon-Onii wrote:
Finally, maybe some people do argue for a 'right' to fansubs, but I don't. I'm saying that official, legitimate subbed files are the future, just like electric cars (*probably*), and unlike my car example, the infrastructure is in place! That's what fansubbing is. Only a few tweaks are needed to make it profitable. The shades of gray aren't for the model's workability, its about the wrongness of downloading a fansub when its so easy for companies to make it legitimate and profitable at the same time with subs of their own.


I agree, legal digital subs are essential to the overall solution for the anime market. That doesn't excuse past illegal acts, though. If you aren't willing to pay for a product, then don't make use of it (see previous section of this post).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
otimus



Joined: 30 Aug 2003
Posts: 63
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:10 am Reply with quote
The alternative to suing?
Do something like Hulu, or whatever, instead of trying to horde all your gold into one basket and make off with as much of it as possible.


Anyways, the real alternative would be to smash capitalism, but we're not going to be able to do that overnight.. or probably not within any of our's lifetime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime
otimus



Joined: 30 Aug 2003
Posts: 63
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:12 am Reply with quote
Another thing is, is to create a package that people WANT to buy. It's the same thing that's going down with games right now. People don't grasp that's all you really need to do, to get sales. Is just put something in there people will want, and if they don't want it after that, then they weren't ever going to pay for it anyways, and getting all mad over it is a waste of time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime
Clobclark



Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Calera, Alabama
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:06 am Reply with quote
Big Hed wrote:
Clobclark wrote:
Information is free.


By this logic, so is every item at your local 7 Eleven. Information has tangible value these days, welcome to the 21st century.


oh really? let me go torrent some snacks from their then.

creative works and ACTUAL tangible items are much different from each other.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Kireek



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:19 am Reply with quote
otimus wrote:
The alternative to suing?
Do something like Hulu, or whatever, instead of trying to horde all your gold into one basket and make off with as much of it as possible.


Anyways, the real alternative would be to smash capitalism, but we're not going to be able to do that overnight.. or probably not within any of our's lifetime.




But thats business you see. And I dont think you could really replace capitalism.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shadowlord



Joined: 24 Sep 2008
Posts: 37
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:13 am Reply with quote
First, I don't think these people in Singapore were warned like "hey, don't download our stuff, m'kay? We don't want to sue you yet, but we will, if we see you downloading our stuff again, m'kay?".
Probably it was more like, that they were caught downloading and then were offered to settle this out of court by paying some kind of penalty and maybe even to subscribe some cease-and-desist declaration. Which they didn't do, hoping their case won't be taken to court or they will be absolved by law.
What concerns me most about this is that it shows clearly that Anime companies in Japan are willing to sue people in other countries - they just don't do it because it would be too difficult in the USA or Europe. Doesn't sound like they are willing to tolerate fansubs in the future any longer.

Yes, anime is not something essential we need to live (hey, say that to some anime-otaku). Many people only watch their anime epsiodes they download once and (almost) never again, I think. So why should they buy them on expensive DVDs? They don't want to collect it - they want to see it.
Sure, a lot of people burn their fansubs on DVDs or keep them on hard disk - but what's so bad about it? Whether they delete it or keep it - no ones looses money because of that. If people don't want to support anime producers by buying DVDs or paying for downloads, they simply don't do it and maybe never will.

You say if a series is worth downloading and watching it's worth paying for it? I highly doubt that. I, for example, watch many different shows on free TV on a regular basis. I also record some of them and keep them on DVD. But I would never actually start paying for them. I watch them because they're for free. Same with anime.
Free Fansubs no doubt have made many people start watching anime. They would not have started watching anime if they would've had to pay for it from the beginning.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lothar



Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 67
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:40 am Reply with quote
Suing people with little disposable income to scare other people with little disposable income to buy anime with money they don't have in the first place. And with expensive lawyers too. Great business plan, guys.

And if I really have to worry about a lawsuit, I'll stop being an anime fan altogether, because I make only enough to survive. I'll entertain myself with books from the library just to spite you. And then I'll only have bitter memories of anime and the anime industry, and I'll encourage everyone else to stop watching. Happy?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 6 of 10

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group